What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

vladucard wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote: I'm pretty available, transparent, so much so that I am a ghost. I'd like to see more conversation about training materials .

Also, lack of funds ought not be an impediment to learning. We may be able to put money into a fund for the purpose of purchasing the books for individuals who cannot

Not a bad idea but think of all the people who get halfway through the IP and leave....it's almost a waste of money, in my personal opinion. Unless they were apprentices, that is and even then, it is risky.

You will find that knights often find ways to support those apprentices who cannot afford the books... Jestor chose lessons that did not require the purchasing of materials.

I feel like a lot of people may post VERY personal stuff on there and everyone has access.....maybe it can be done so that people who are, at least, initiates, can view them and not just guests.

While I understand, some of us guests have journals.. I would also caution against posting anything online anywhere that one does not want (or expect) others to read.

ah, yes, true! Internet 101, mind what you post for others to see ^^

I think the Temple as an "Entity" should have more confidence in itself.

Whilst I appreciate constantly being asked for my input - The Temple is bigger than me. We have plenty of Knights (who can provide the training an apprentice wants/needs in their own way.)

The IP is fine (as far as I know...I'm not exactly well into it) -It doesn't need to be made more detailed or varied - the apprenticeship system allows for that.

There are technical problems with the site - Everyone knows this.

I understand we do have the odd Knight step down because they decide it ain't no good- They're probably the ones you want to engage for flaws with TotJO.

For the rest of us (Me, other Members, Guests, random whackos) - I suggest a firmer hand.
Acceptance is one thing - but any parent knows at some point you have to tell the kids they can't wear batman costumes to school and there is such a thing as bed time.

I'm mildly curious as to how the council and others who are working in the administration feel about this and what more can be done on our (non-council/administration personnel) end as well. Perhaps there are things that can be done to help out or process things faster.

As to what I think could be improved, I have no response currently as I am working on what I feel needs to be changed and will wait and see what happens as a result of my efforts.

I would like to see more accountability from the top. I'd like to see discussions on how to remove problem officers from positions that have no term limits. I'd like to see discourse on term limits, perhaps, or session limits. I'd like to see us actually lay out specifics on a boatload of topics and come to generalized agreements on what the heck it is we're on about here. I'd like for us to have a working, flexible definition of "Jedi" for example, that doesn't just rely on self-labelling. I'd like to see us work toward a space where we could actually do some good, and for us to move toward the background work necessary to make that happen.

I have 2 years experience running non-profits (2 of them) and charitable groups. Please message me if the Council is in need of consultation there!

Ok, here is what I would change if I ran things, mostly on the IP

1. Make the IP compulsory for membership

TOTJO receives lots of new visitors that are attracted by the "Jedi" label and simply want to join to call themselves Jedi. Anyone should be able to register as a "Guest" and participate in introduction and open forums, but if they desire membership, they should complete the IP. Thus, the "member" and "novice" ranks would be eliminated, and anyone who is still serious will prove it, by doing the IP.

2. Make the IP 100% private

The way I envision this, is that any Guest could read through the IP curricula, but would not be able to read others' IP journals. The way I would set this up, is to have the Guest submit an application (web form) formally petitioning to begin training, which would send out an email to the IP team. The IP team would then assign a sponsor in charge of that particular Guest, who would receive by mail all work done (which would have to be completed in whole lessons, not sporadic posts). The sponsor would then create a thread for the Guest in a private forum accesible only to the IP team and Knights, and would post within this person's thread any emails sent out or received to keep accountability of both the Guest and the Sponsor's work.

This would do a few things:

• Make plagiarism virtually impossible
• Make the Guest feel accompanied while doing the IP
• Filter out people who are not serious about becoming members

3. Make the IP longer, and use our own materials only.

I would divide the IP into modules, adding more to it. I would, however, only use materials which are not copyrighted, preferably written by Knights here. Current lessons that involve copyrighted materials, would be optional, and people would have to acquire them on their own (they are not THAT hard to find for free if you really take some time to look).

4. Make IP completion memorable.

It's been tough, it's been long, but the Guest finally is a full member! (I might even be persuaded to drop the "Initiate" title and simply keep "Member", but that is not important. Make it memorable by issuing the new member a digital certificate of membership (members could also get a physical copy if they desire by paying for it).

The way I envision this, is that any Guest could read through the IP curricula, but would not be able to read others' IP journals. The way I would set this up, is to have the Guest submit an application (web form) formally petitioning to begin training, which would send out an email to the IP team. The IP team would then assign a sponsor in charge of that particular Guest, who would receive by mail all work done (which would have to be completed in whole lessons, not sporadic posts). The sponsor would then create a thread for the Guest in a private forum accesible only to the IP team and Knights, and would post within this person's thread any emails sent out or received to keep accountability of both the Guest and the Sponsor's work.

This would do a few things:

• Make plagiarism virtually impossible
• Make the Guest feel accompanied while doing the IP
• Filter out people who are not serious about becoming members

While I appreciate what it is you're trying to do with this suggestion, having assisted with the IP Team in the past, I can say that it is already hurting for people with the time and resources to manage the current load of reading what people post themselves. Such a system would very likely make for a caseload that is just impossible to manage at all. And frankly...It would honestly be taking away the responsibility from the person doing the IP. The biggest issue that this would address - plagiarism - is virtually non-existent to begin with.

Here's what else I see this creating as a problem: IP Journals being available for other novices to read gives everyone involved a learning opportunity. It's open so that everyone from the guest level all the way up to a grand master can read a person's post and go "Oh hey, I didn't think of that before. That's actually rather interesting!" I know I've done it before, both while I was doing the IP and since I have completed it.

Further, right now, individuals who are going through the IP have the option to have someone 'accompanying' them or not, rather than forcing it upon them as such a system would do. While people can learn from the IP as it is currently set up, it's primary purpose is to expose individuals to generalized ideas and get their thoughts on that idea back, so as to help match up with a good teaching master. The IP Team's current stated purpose is not so much as to 'accompany' a person through the program and teach them, as your idea reads to me, as it is to go "Hey, you did a great job of covering on these points; I can tell you really thought this through" or "You know, you did a good job of covering this and this, but you might want to consider these other points as well."

In fact, having gotten to this point in responding to your suggestion, I've come to the realization that we already have a program in place exactly like that which you're suggestion. We call it an apprenticeship, which in and of itself covers just about every other suggestion you made.


I get the thought and idea behind trying to make the IP necessary in order to become a member at all, but I don't think I agree with it. We've always separated what's necessary for membership within the church, and what's necessary in order to obtain rank within the church, and membership itself has never been dependent upon one's desire to obtain rank. I'm not sure we should start doing that.

Honestly, the first thought I had in response to this question was to make a bad joke out of it...

***
What would help the temple be a better place?
...
Better people. (cue laughter)
***

But to answer more seriously-


1) I think more support and accountability of (and for) every individual would be help improve the temple! ...

... Support and accountability already exists between some members (Apprentices of the same knight for example often bond over the same material they're given to study) or through discussions on threads, but I believe this support could be further developed and encouraged by the temple from the beginning asking new starters to chat and help one another: it could take the form of an optional buddy system where you 'buddy up' with a fellow learner or 'peer' as it were to discuss the material. I think this would improve the community by creating more connections between people (and it could be presented and made in such a way as to encourage positivity, openess and kindness in those relationships).

2) Before joining a buddy system (see point 1) a couple of pointers could be read to help smoothen future relationships between buddies. We have a great variety of people and opinion here and it seems to me that a lesson in the IP asking A ) why might it be important to be able to discuss and debate with other people? B ) how do you discuss and debate positively? C ) What's important to you in a discussion? and then showing your answers to your buddy. This would be a valuable lesson I think.


3) I know this is a temple of jedi but I actually think there should be less focus on what it is to be a Jedi and more focus on certain concepts that should help understand ourselves and one another regardless of what name we take for ourselves, Jedi or not... (One concept I think would worth educating people about is *Confirmation Bias*- https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2017/05/confirmation-bias/ - well worth reading).

I've ran out of time it seems to continue writing sorry- but thankyou for your question and opportunity to think,

More of our lessons and content written by members themselves. One of the best points on Jediism is that it takes a plethora of idea's that have been around from other various religions, thrown in some more recent ones, and made it a more modern view of a belief system. However we still focus I think a little too heavily on books and documents and write ups from all the places where this comes from, and not enough writing from our own experiences to be shared and used as lessons. One of the reasons I spent a good chunk of time away from the temple and wrote the "tellahane's holocron" which recently just got approved and put in the library. We really need to see more genuine content written by people who have truly gone out and applied these lessons to their lives and are willing to write there experiences into lessons for others. While it's nice to be able to reference the history of a concept or idea for learning, this is about bringing it up to modern day views of the concepts. What better way then to shape them out of our own experiences on the path.

Here's my 2 cents:

What I think would make the temple a better place has either already been suggested (greater accountability from the higher ups... and more consistent presence, rather than disappearing for an extensive period of time and then returning to take that same office again)

-OR-

It's already in the process of being implemented. That is, to piggy back off of what Vusuki just suggested, a greater system of support. I'm speaking strictly to the outreach team that's in the process of being developed by the Clergy. If that were to get up and running and there to be greater outreach by members towards members who are clearly having a hard time or seem to be disappearing for unexplained reasons, I think it would go a long way to improve the overall purpose and atmosphere of the temple as a whole. One of the biggest problems I've both personally seen and heard others say is, they can clearly say they're having an issue with something, and yet they'll literally hear from no one. While I understand that it may happen from time, typically someone who's begun investing time in the site and the training program here won't just disappear one day for months at a time...unless something happened. And if that person gets no reach out at all, from anyone, what gives them a reason to come back in the slightest? At the very least, it's my hope that that outreach team might help with situations like that in the future.

The IP team, where it is able to, is also a good form of support. It is, unfortunately, severely understaffed.

Accountability from the top is a great idea. Term limits for Offices is a great idea in my opinion.

I am here to help provide a safe place for the free exchange of ideas and opinions. So that the membership can freely discuss things and have the temple governed in a fair and unbiased manner. Unfortunately, my duties cause me to spend a lot of time dealing with rank changes, processing applications, name changes, people banned from chat, moderating stuff like repeated posts, or moving stuff, creating areas, Approving minor for the minors sub forum, the list goes on and on. And for the last so long I have been fighting to keep the forums and the command structure unbiased and fair for all that come here and not just a select few.

That said, I don’t get to post as often as I would like sometimes. But I always try to make the effort.

So, I will let everyone here know that if anyone is unhappy with me or my performance just say so. I have no issue stepping down if the majority of active members think I am not doing my job. My job is to be of service to all of you.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Accountability from the top is a great idea. Term limits for Offices is a great idea in my opinion.

I am here to help provide a safe place for the free exchange of ideas and opinions. So that the membership can freely discuss things and have the temple governed in a fair and unbiased manner. Unfortunately, my duties cause me to spend a lot of time dealing with rank changes, processing applications, name changes, people banned from chat, moderating stuff like repeated posts, or moving stuff, creating areas, Approving minor for the minors sub forum, the list goes on and on. And for the last so long I have been fighting to keep the forums and the command structure unbiased and fair for all that come here and not just a select few.

That said, I don’t get to post as often as I would like sometimes. But I always try to make the effort.

So, I will let everyone here know that if anyone is unhappy with me or my performance just say so. I have no issue stepping down if the majority of active members think I am not doing my job. My job is to be of service to all of you.

Don't forget unbanning accidental chat bans! :lol:

And see for me (and I only speak for me), it's rather obvious which of the higher ups (of any sort) make the effort to be around and which are the sort to only come around when it appears to suit them.

Now I'll say this regarding "term limits".... There's only so many (obviously) active knights about. It would seem to me that putting such things into place would ultimately end up in... Well Wes I'll use you as an example because I'm quoting your post. Wes mets his term end, steps down, one day later steps back up because... Who else is suitable to take on his role? Or maybe he steps down from his current role and then 6 months later is stepping up to another role because that person's term has expired and Wes is the only suitable replacement at that time. That's the situation we run into with that. If TOTJO were larger and had more qualified, consistently active individuals around, that would be one thing, but that currently (based on my observations, so I admit I could be wrong!) is not the case.

That said....whoops. Times up. I'll finish this thought later. But I do have a counter point I'd like to make when I get the chance later today. *Puts it on her to do list*

Avalonslight wrote: Wes mets his term end, steps down, one day later steps back up because... Who else is suitable to take on his role?

So long as that's the case, there's not a problem with Wes staying in the role. This is more about post holders who aren't showing up anymore, or aren't obviously effective in their roles. Right now the only mechanism for replacing them with effective people is waiting for them to decide to step down. That seems... silly. And even then, they have been replaced by similarly inactive members... so the problem is compounded.

The other thing is we can only guess who they are, because we don't have any visibility on what individual Councillors do (or don't do). Or even what they're supposed to be doing. People most of us don't know get to decide how this place works, if they show up, because once upon a time it was decided they should. That seems really crap to a lot of us... this place is a big part of our beliefs, it matters to us, we show up. And then a stranger declares themselves in charge and starts throwing their weight around... that's an unpleasant experience.

I have no doubt some councillors do a lot of work. I also know for a fact several don't. How about sharing that work between multiple active councillors? How about delegating some of that work to non-Council members so that Councillors remain part of the community? How is it people can claim to represent the best interests of this community when they're not engaged in it?

Like I said... you can't be a leader if you're a stranger.

" Right now the only mechanism for replacing them with effective people is waiting for them to decide to step down."

There is another mechanism, it takes a magority vote in Council. But that is a LOT harder to do when it comes to removing someone than one might think.

That said, I am certain that if memebrs, especially knights, made a petition, it would be considered with some merit of wieght. Of course it would take more than one or two people being a part of the petition. But each member of council is here to serve you, the membership. Not the other way around. Your voices have weight. Your opinions have merit.

It's great that you're telling us this now, but it's exactly indicative of my point that you have to tell us, rather than this being something known by the general membership.

And yes, removing anyone from a job role they're not performing in is really hard, when you don't set expectations for the job role, and promote people because they're your friends...

Would be happy to provide progress reports on the work of the Clergy once per month. Unless it concerns personel (who's names will be redacted for privacy), I'm happy to provide a report for information only

Most jobs don’t have set expectations except those that directly involve members or the rank progression somehow. And these are easy to monitor because things either get done, or they don’t. LOL :laugh: They should have expectations, but in all fairness, it’s hard enough to get people to do them the way they want let alone the way we think they should be done.

Nothing against anyone, but look at the clergy for example. Every time new leadership takes over the first order of business is change. May be for the better, maybe not. Who knows? But if we set restrictions and expectations, how many would volunteer to do it? We allow that free range so that things can grow, change and evolve and hopefully the day to day gets done as well.

Voting out someone is in the bylaw section of the charter of incorporation I believe. But that is always an option in any charitable community unless their bylaws state otherwise. Just a friendly FYI

I would hope that Knights know that their voices hold weight here. The mission of the Council over the last few years has to been to get knights more involved and running the temple. That was the running theme when I joined Council and it has never changed for me.

I have no qualms with using the writings of others during the IP. In college, our professors would scan book chapters into computers and make it easy for us to access the materials. I really don't think that it's disrespectful in any way to read someone's book, especially a nonfiction book, without paying for it. Heck, if I wrote a book I'd be glad if people stole it to read it. Honestly, if I do it, please steal my books. At least then I'll know someone is reading them!
Information should be free. That is my fundamental belief. To "create" a scientific discovery, philosophical system, or analysis of previously held systems, etc. and then to hold it back so that people can only access it if they give you money -- that's greedy. And it's anti-intellectual. It obscures and hides the truth. I don't condone or respect it as a practice.

It would be ignorant to assume that those outside sources no longer have anything to offer just because some TOTJO knights write up something else. But, yes, I also agree that the IP should contain FAR more original writing from the Temple. A good balance of outside materials and temple-generated content can be hard to hit, but I like the fact that the various lessons on the site give me reading suggestions. And they're not all available in the library all of the time.

There should be meditation instruction in the IP, more than an Alan Watts or Krishnamurti lecture, if meditation is something that Jedi should take seriously. The fictional Jedi kids learning at the temple would meditate five times daily. Yet there isn't really a clear place on TOTJO to talk about meditation, and the suggestion has been made for it before.

I would extend that suggestion to all esoteric practice. Other Jedi communities have clear sections for discussing esotericism, and those kinds of teachings are readily available in the temple library. The fact that there isn't any such section on TOTJO makes me feel as if discussing esoterics, meditation, or generally the more "mystical" stuff is frowned on in some way. Perhaps that is just my own feeling and not the intent, but I don't see very many of those conversations happening very often and I assume that others have the same feeling...

Term limits for offices may be a good idea. But is it really? I've heard of some folks waiting a long time -- months, even -- for a response from the council on any given thing. While the folks on the council have their own lives and I don't think any of us expect them to be on the website all of the time, it is really a shame that it takes so long for some people and I don't see why such processes can't be expedited. But supposing that there are term limits and such expedition doesn't take place, seems ineffective.

There are broken links. A lot of them. Please, do something with them -- anything. At least change the broken links in DQS lessons and the FAQ.

Bring back the old website design. But, really, I didn't see anything wrong with the old chat system and I think it was WAY better than this collapsible sidebar business. It seemed more functional, and with the current chat there's a lot of sounds that happen when I'm browsing the website trying to catch up. It gets kind of distracting when I'm writing a post. Easy fix, but then every time I open TOTJO I have to bring up the chat and mute it and then minimize it just so I can actually see the forum! The old chat, you had to click on it to open it, and that wasn't an issue.

Hm... I know that our syncretic nature is of major allure to a lot of people, but there are times when I think homogeneity isn't necessarily a good thing? TOTJO is hesitant to, as a body, even put together basic definitions of our religious terminology. I know why people are hesitant to give a definition to the Force, but still, it would be nice to see maybe "What is the Force" in the FAQ with some kind of reasonable answer. The IJRS library is superficially similar to what I'm talking about, to some extent, and many views are presented there.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Avalonslight wrote: While I appreciate what it is you're trying to do with this suggestion, having assisted with the IP Team in the past, I can say that it is already hurting for people with the time and resources to manage the current load of reading what people post themselves. Such a system would very likely make for a caseload that is just impossible to manage at all. And frankly...It would honestly be taking away the responsibility from the person doing the IP. The biggest issue that this would address - plagiarism - is virtually non-existent to begin with.

Thank you for the feedback. I was under the impression plagiarism was a more frequent thing.

I do, however, think you might be mistaken about workload for the IP Team. Having a student go through those extra hoops to get their work submitted should act as a deterrant to those unwilling to put in the work. The reason the IP Team currently is understaffed is because they are busy sending out greetings in bulk and cataloging anyone who begins the IP for follow up. If you work only with those actively submitting assignments, the total workload is reduced.

The IP Team's current stated purpose is not so much as to 'accompany' a person through the program and teach them, as your idea reads to me...

I may have done a poor job communicating what I meant. I was not suggesting the sponsor (which btw already exists in the IP Team) should do any teaching at all. The job would be the same as it is now. It's only moved to email (or PM) to ensure privacy.

I do grant there is inmense value in reading others' work.

I still insist the IP should be compulsory for membership. Even if one does not wish to pursue Ordination nor Knighthood, it's a good introduction to Jediism.