charity

Trisskar wrote: How did you find TOTJO?

Google.

Trisskar wrote: The Jedi Gatherings (Non TOTJO Related) Would perform their workshops and Group Practices outside in their shared public locations (Parks/Campground/Cabin) Doing Yoga, Sword, Meditation, Open Lectures ect ect....By doing this, we often got outside people coming and taking part of what we do, asking questions and curiously watching.

Some Chapters (Non TOTJO) Go to Cons and have a table with hand outs

Some put up Business Cards on bulletin boards in stores

Thats about the extent of "Outside Recruitment" that id be willing to accept. No harm in people coming to us as it is what people do anyways here on the internet.

How did you find TOTJO? My guess is some outside influence

OMG. I'm 100% pitching a Jediism panel to my local Con...

It is very important to remember that from a legal standpoint, the designation of "charity" brings not-for-profit along with it. The reason TOTJO is considered a legitimate charity under U.S. law is that it not only advances religion and education, but does so without financial gain. The services offered here are free of charge and open to anyone interested at the expense of the Temple (or more specifcally, Br. John's wallet among other generous donations).

It should also be noted that we have clergy here that can and do serve the same purposes of their counterparts in other religions. Our licensed ministers can conduct weddings and other ceremonies and are legally recognized in many places when doing so.

By every legal definition in the U.S., including the granted 501(c)3 status, TOTJO is a charitable organization. What we do with this designation in order to help our communities is what will legitimize us as a charity in the eyes of the public.

I am in the UK so judging from the other thread, it is not so cut and dried here.

Not trying to argue but you pay for a website, anybody joining here works of there own back. People who gain rank seem willing to give up their time to teach and train others here and I assume (probably) people here donate towards the upkeep of the site.
.You may be able to have your own ministers and thats okay in the USA, is it the same in other countries that this website serves?

So you are a self contained religion (?) With doctrine, ministers ect...

And what you as members do personally for charity may be a great deal but unless it is defined as Totjo charity work then no, it does nothing to legitimise you in the public eye,, because they do t know who you are or why you are doing good works..

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Trisskar wrote: The Jedi Gatherings (Non TOTJO Related) Would perform their workshops and Group Practices outside in their shared public locations (Parks/Campground/Cabin) Doing Yoga, Sword, Meditation, Open Lectures ect ect....By doing this, we often got outside people coming and taking part of what we do, asking questions and curiously watching.

Some Chapters (Non TOTJO) Go to Cons and have a table with hand outs

Some put up Business Cards on bulletin boards in stores

Thats about the extent of "Outside Recruitment" that id be willing to accept. No harm in people coming to us as it is what people do anyways here on the internet.

How did you find TOTJO? My guess is some outside influence

OMG. I'm 100% pitching a Jediism panel to my local Con...

haha Just remember not all of Jediism is the same as the other. If you do a Panel...best pick 1 example to expand on like the Temple. Heck...If you talk with Brenna, Kit and BR John you might even be able to get things like flyers, decal and such to hand out

Sue wrote: I am in the UK so judging from the other thread, it is not so cut and dried here.

Agreed. I speak of our situation in the U.S. only. Every country will be different.

Sue wrote: You may be able to have your own ministers and thats okay in the USA, is it the same in other countries that this website serves?

No. See above.

Sue wrote: So you are a self contained religion (?) With doctrine, ministers ect...

Yes, as defined in the U.S.

Sue wrote: And what you as members do personally for charity may be a great deal but unless it is defined as Totjo charity work then no, it does nothing to legitimise you in the public eye,, because they do t know who you are or why you are doing good works..

Now we must question the intention of the charitable action in order to determine it's effectiveness. Many Christian churches pass a plate around during services to collect donations. These most often are used to pay the expenses of maintaining the church and staff. This act would seem to be self-serving and not charitable in that it just keeps the church running, but by keeping the church running, it allows the services provided by the church to the community to continue.

So, I ask, is a donation to the church plate on Sunday charity or not?

Here's another way to look at it. I work at a big commercial radio station owned by an even bigger media company. We are in business to make profit, and we make a lot of it. At the same time, this one radio station has raised over six million dollars in charitable donations over the past 10 years for the local children's hospital. We do it to give back to our community and to help kids with cancer, but we also make a ton of money from advertisers in this same community. We make sure our name is all over the news when we do fundraisers and take credit for raising that money every chance we get. Everyone knows we are doing this "good work", but since it greatly benefits us as a business as well, is it really charity?

There are clearly a lot of gray areas here. I could say that raising 6 million dollars for kids outweighs any selfish motives my radio station might have, but I could also say that the countless hours of volunteer work and monetary donations given anonymously by members of TOTJO every year is worth just as much even though the Temple doesn't get any credit for it.

So I ask this... As Jedi, should we really be seeking credit? It seems to run counter to much of our Doctrine to do so.

Sue wrote: And it would seem more gaining members (recruitment) than anything charitable, even if the knight was giving time for free...
Almost cult like

And that is one of the main reasons why we generally don't do that stuff...but then we get told we're inward looking by charity commissions and the like :laugh:

Seems to be a lose-lose kinda situation...

Personally I wouldn't feel it was culty to give the odd talk, or stage a debate/panel, or other such things. People like to attend such things just out of simple curiosity. I regard it as a public service for any town or city to hold such events on a wide variety of topics. We humans like to know what makes other people tick, and those sorts of events are much more about that - about developing empathy and general understanding towards others - than about actually promoting the viewpoint itself. I would feel it was culty to knock on doors, hand out flyers, generally tell people how awesome we are and that they should come and join us. (I know flyers have been mentioned in this thread and in other places before, but maybe my distaste for them is just a personal quirk... :dry: Maybe flyers for the talk would be okay - it's flyers saying "Come and join TOTJO!" that scare me!)

In the time I've been here, TOTJO has resisted pretty much all/any temptation to try to actively grow its membership base. We have a PR Officer mainly to speak to the many people who approach us for comment, rather than because we're actively going out looking for it - and I believe that we also turn down a fair number of the requests that we receive through those channels. We trust that people will find us if they are meant to...everyone has heard of Jediism - if they're interested they'll Google it, just like pretty much all of us did (back when we were the public looking for something to benefit from :laugh: :whistle:)

The difficulty is, working out how to be 'charitable' when so few members live in close proximity, and we do not have financial reserves (and we resolutely oppose asking members for money). At this time we can offer neither labour-based charity neither funding-based charity (beyond individual efforts), and that leaves us with few options, hence ideas that fall more into the education bracket (particularly when faced with a criteria of 'advancement' of religion). And to re-iterate what Leah said, this thread is currently mostly just a tiny handful of members brainstorming - chucking ideas about willy-nilly - most or all of which will probably never see the light of day!

Goken makes an excellent point about Clergy, who perform their duties outside of this Temple as well as inside - but as you say, Sue, much of that goes unnoticed, or is considered the work of individuals rather than the Temple as a whole - and for the most part, unnoticed is probably the way it should be? Clergy aren't looking for recognition, nor is the Temple looking for it on their behalf...

Sue wrote: And what you as members do personally for charity may be a great deal but unless it is defined as Totjo charity work then no, it does nothing to legitimise you in the public eye,, because they do t know who you are or why you are doing good works..

This is where it's all a little complicated right now, because the Charity Commission and the public eye are two entirely separate things. Although we have failed on this occasion, it would be possible to satisfy the Charity Commission, and thereby become a legally recognised Charity (in the UK), without the public feeling as though they necessarily saw us as a charity in the very traditional sense, as you described in your original post. Of course, as things stand, we have not managed to do that, but of course it is impossible to untangle the lack of 'advancement' (i.e. the lack of charity) from the apparent lack of 'religion' - so it is difficult to be sure, if hypothetically we had been deemed a religion, exactly how much more advancement we would have to do.

Something that worked against us on this is that we don't require Members to view this as a religion. Things get murky here. There's some independent churches whose members do not call themselves Christians and say they don't have a religion. They say they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

There's people here who say they don't see Jedi as being a religion but it's a way of life. I see religion as a way of life. I'm going along with Kahlil Gibran on this. He says:

Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,
And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?
Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?
Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself; This for my soul, and this other for my body?"
All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.
He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.
The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.
And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.
The freest song comes not through bars and wires.
And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.

Your daily life is your temple and your religion.
Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.
Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,
The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.
For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.
And take with you all men:
For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.

And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.

V-Tog wrote: (I know flyers have been mentioned in this thread and in other places before, but maybe my distaste for them is just a personal quirk... :dry: Maybe flyers for the talk would be okay - it's flyers saying "Come and join TOTJO!" that scare me!)

For me it is in the spirit of the flyer.

One says "Join us because we are awesome!!!"

Another says "For those curious in the information this is what we do, what we teach, and how we teach it."

I like option 2 With some sort of non invasive demonstration in the background (Like your common training)

Trisskar wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Trisskar wrote: The Jedi Gatherings (Non TOTJO Related) Would perform their workshops and Group Practices outside in their shared public locations (Parks/Campground/Cabin) Doing Yoga, Sword, Meditation, Open Lectures ect ect....By doing this, we often got outside people coming and taking part of what we do, asking questions and curiously watching.

Some Chapters (Non TOTJO) Go to Cons and have a table with hand outs

Some put up Business Cards on bulletin boards in stores

Thats about the extent of "Outside Recruitment" that id be willing to accept. No harm in people coming to us as it is what people do anyways here on the internet.

How did you find TOTJO? My guess is some outside influence

OMG. I'm 100% pitching a Jediism panel to my local Con...

haha Just remember not all of Jediism is the same as the other. If you do a Panel...best pick 1 example to expand on like the Temple. Heck...If you talk with Brenna, Kit and BR John you might even be able to get things like flyers, decal and such to hand out

Of course, I would only want to talk about TotJO (aside from mentioning that it's only one of many Jedi groups) because its the only one I'm familiar with. I don't like to speak about what I don't know