Desiderata

Max Ehrmann wrote: Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Thoughts?

It's a nice poem?

It's fairly sensible. I recommend people to read it at least once a day

He had me until the 'God' line. The whole poem is beautifully assuring and even soothing - lots of good advice about how to tread lightly, how to avoid causing ripples and repercussion in causality. But then bam - all messed up. While I'm not a believer, I'm also not saying there is no 'God' (I wouldn't know) but the poem stipulates maturity, choice and self-determination and the presumption that a deity is present to control things negates all of that again.

One of my favourite poems.

Cyan Sarden wrote: the poem stipulates maturity, choice and self-determination and the presumption that a deity is present to control things negates all of that again.

Where does the poem say that the God Ehermann spoke of "is present to control things"? How is mentioning God, in passing, contrary to "maturity, choice and self-determination"? Is belief in God at odds with "maturity, choice and self-determination" in your view? Are you sure you're not just projecting *your* own views of the traditional Abrahamic God onto this poem?

Adi wrote:
Where does the poem say that the God Ehermann spoke of "is present to control things"? How is mentioning God, in passing, contrary to "maturity, choice and self-determination"? Is belief in God at odds with "maturity, choice and self-determination" in your view? Are you sure you're not just projecting *your* own views of the traditional Abrahamic God onto this poem?

True, I might be. But the line mentions that you should be at 'peace with God', implying a very much Abrahamic view by the author as well. Plus he refers go god as "Him" - again indicating Abrahamic views. Why would there be a need to be 'at peace' with something that doesn't have the potential for (inner?) conflict? Why would there be a potential for conflict if the deity mentioned didn't interfere with your world at all?

I do not dispute that Ehrmann was talking about the Abrahamic (in this case, Christian) God. He most certainly was, since he was a German Methodist — although, said to be an unorthodox and rather undogmatic one, as this poem illustrates. I'm just trying to understand how an entire poem, with as much in it as this one has, can be "all messed up" for someone simply because the writer included a mention of how they viewed God — especially considering it's through the rather open-minded lens of "whatever you conceive Him to be." It returns to the question I posed: "Is belief in God at odds with 'maturity, choice and self-determination' in your view?"

I'mma say y'all missing the point for the sake of semantics

The line is

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.

I'm more than happy to read "whatever you conceive him to be" as "The Force"

If the "him" upsets you, copy it into Notepad, swap the word for "It" and then print it out

Or swap the word God for "The Force"

If my use of the word "notepad" upsets you because you're a Mac or Linux or whatever user - Then you're really, really missing the point :lol: :lol:

JamesSand wrote: I'mma say y'all missing the point for the sake of semantics

I "get the point" since I've loved this poem for years, but I'm sad if someone else can't appreciate it simply because this poem includes a brief theistic sentiment by its Christian author. I enjoy poetry from religious traditions different from my own (especially Islam.) This isn't even a particularly "Christian" poem, either, despite being written by one.

Adi wrote: It returns to the question I posed: "Is belief in God at odds with 'maturity, choice and self-determination' in your view?"

Frankly, I don't like where this is going - especially the implication of your question about how I few things. However, for the sake of the argument, I will still attempt to answer it. I choose to reply "it depends" to this. Believing in God / a god can be a free choice, determined by a freely thinking person. However, it can also be an expectation by society and / or something that is forced on a person for fear of consequence. The way I read that particular line of the poem, I'd say that the author simply presumes that you believe in God (because this is what people do in that particular society). This indicates to me that indeed, this has very little to do with free thought. Referring to God as "Him" and at the same time granting you the choice to conceive God the way you like, is contradictory as well.

Adi wrote: I'm just trying to understand how an entire poem, with as much in it as this one has, can be "all messed up" for someone simply because the writer included a mention of how they viewed God

I can definitely see how that could happen for one reason:

Max Ehrmann wrote: Therefore be at peace with God

"Therefore" can come off as "And to achieve all of these things..." or "It is for these reasons that you should..." or "Doing these things will make you..." When I read it, that's the feeling I got from it. That didn't sour the entire poem for me, but I can definitely see where that could come from. If the view of God presented in this poem (because, despite following it up with "whatever you conceive Him to be," there is definitely a particular view of God being presented) is one that the reader disagrees with, then the entire poem quickly becomes an instruction manual for living with that view.

I would say though, that this poem has enough content for "chewing up the meat and spitting out the bones" to be a worthwhile approach.