Regarding Guilt and the burdens we carry...

That's the thing about guilt (and its cousin shame), it's not always a rational emotion that responds to logic. I think Mr. Allex recognizes this himself when he says, "There were all these support groups and I didn’t belong there because how do I sit in a room with people that are, that are mourning and crying and they’re like, 'What’s your role in this whole thing?' 'Well, I checked in a couple of the hijackers and made sure they got on the flight.' " Which is in no way meant to invalidate what he feels. This was a terrible thing, a cataclysmic thing that still affects people's thinking and conscience all these years later, and the fact that he had any small traceable link in the causality of it all is bound to make him feel a connection to the enormity of it, and the responsibility for it.

But causality is a big damn mind-blowing thing if you stop to think about it. There is a near-infinite series of events big and small that all had to converge on that point to make things happen the way they did, connecting thousands, maybe millions, of people, from the twenty guys with evil intent to the schlubs who pumped the fuel into the planes. The people who built the planes. The people who made the parts that went into building the planes. The people who made the fax machines that transmitted the work orders for the parts that went into building the planes. Keep on going, and you eventually get to the bird that dropped the seed that became the tree that was turned into the wood that Wilbur and Orville used to build their experiment . . .

But the question was, what would I say were I sitting in a room with a man who feels that burden of responsibility for a tragedy of that magnitude, and I doubt I would start pontificating about causality.

'Cause I have been in that room with people who felt similarly. I've been on medical calls that turned into codes, and I've had to help my partners and newbies decompress after a call that doesn't end in a good outcome. And they've had to help me too. Someone's heart stops, that person is unfortunately dead. Sometimes we can turn that around with CPR and medications and hauling a$$ to the ER. Sometimes we can't. I start blaming myself for the latter, and what I'm really doing is blaming myself for not being omnipotent enough to conquer inevitable death. Same with Mr. Allex: in a way, he's blaming himself for not being omniscient enough to realize those were bad guys with evil intent.

The sad thing for me is his perception that others right after it occurred *were* blaming him. I don't know if that is the real reason people didn't seem to want to meet his gaze. I suspect if I were one of those people, it wouldn't be because I thought him in any way culpable; it would be because I wouldn't know what to say and I would be afraid of saying the wrong thing.

Atticus wrote: That's the thing about guilt (and its cousin shame), it's not always a rational emotion that responds to logic.

I wholeheartedly agree! For some reason, people always find it easier to blame themselves than others; and to forgive others rather than themselves. Even when, deep down, I know I couldn't have done better, I still find myself saying "it's my fault" or "I could've done better" sometimes. Even when people respond with "No you couldn't have, what else could you have done?", and I cannot answer, I still cling to the idea that I could have done better and that I am to blame.

As Jedi, it is one of our beliefs to help others as much as possible, a belief I agree with and believe is very important. It is equally important, however, to realise when we have done all that we can.

Of course it is easier said than done.

Somewhere between not trying enough and thinking you could've done more but couldn't have is the balance to helping someone, however that balance is so hard to get! Everyone knows what it's like to be at one end or the other of that skism, and neither are pleasant.

It is a Jedi's job to help all, surely ourselves are included in that? Helping others is, I feel, one of the most important things about being a Jedi and a human being, but we must be wary that helping others can do ourselves harm if we are not careful!

Another important and powerful topic; youre digging into the very heart of our existential challenges. Thank you.

i would prefer to already have the philosophical basis established before getting to the specific detail of any specific individuals specific circumstances

and the groundwork is essentially this: we are fragile, vulnerable, flawed, surrounded by forces beyond our comprehension or control

we can be swept up into any number of powerful currents at any moment
"can be" isnt even correct; our very birth was a powerful current which swept us up beyond our control
and that was just our beginning!

tragedy sweeps us all into its designs, somehow, at some point

many lives are marked by little more than tragedy after tragedy into a tragic end, and history is rife with examples

when buddha said "life is suffering" man he wasnt making that up

are there are things we can do to buffer ourselves against the weight of these existential challenges?
The challenges of our frailty and mortality, and the insuffieciency of our resources to navigating the complexity of the multiverse?

compare yourself to the universe!
we cannot stand up to THAT!

yes, there are some things we can do

we can take full responsibility for our lives
we have very little time here and at some point what time we have may become extremely difficult to bear, so its best to use it smartly and figure out what the hell it is that we really care about, what we really want to do and who we really want to be, and work towards that every day!

the Path with Heart!

as jedi we need to believe in our own power, as citizens we need to believe in our ability to influence our communities - but as human beings, surrounded by the infinite and eternal, we need to recognise our relative insignificance

i feel sadness for his pain but he is giving himself way to much credit here; he has made himself way too important

some details for his particular situation; he let 2 hijackers get on one plane, fine, they werent breaking any rules and there were 19 hijackers total and four airplanes

what was he going to have done, really?

"sir you cant take a box cutter on the plane" ??
no because that wasnt a rule
but maybe he thinks "i dont like the look of this guy" most likely even the other of the two he let on still gets by, plane still takes off, hijackers still hijack plane

the movement to attack america was utterly out of his hands, so was americas response
these werent events he precipitated, these were events he was swept up into, just like the rest of the world

a lot of people were responsible in some way for 911, he is not on the list

I'm just sort of sitting here with my thoughts, and this is painful. The most painful part for me is realizing that because of his enormous burden of guilt, he couldn't grieve. As he says he couldn't find support even among the people who the day before may have been laughing and joking with him as they did their work together. Its really isolating and the isolation makes it hard to open up to people and to make it through the season.

He said he needed support. To the best of my ability I would supply that. I don't know of any words that I could say that would assist him through the process except for "I am here for you", but beyond that, I think I would simply and truly be there for him. Hot meal? Sure. Shoulder? Sure. Tissues and water? Sure. Midnight calls? Sure. I'll say more, I think, by my actions than I ever will with words.

One thing that helps me in overcoming guilt in my life is to be brutally honest with myself.

That's pretty easy if I have wronged another. If I'm feeling guilt about it, then I already know that I was wrong. It's just a matter of figuring out what I can do better in the future.

But in this situation, Vaughn did not wrong anyone. He couldn't have done better. He did his job and did it right. He was not at fault for anything that happened that day.

But he was responsible.

If he had not checked those men onto the flight, those men would not have participated in the hijacking. But he did. And they did. And people died. He's responsible for that.

responsible (adj): chargeable with being the author, cause, or occasion of something (usually followed by for)

fault (n): an error or mistake

There's a distinction between responsibility and fault that is often overlooked. That's just a natural part of how language works as many words come to be used in the same way. But I think this distinction is one worth remembering and worth using.

Vaughn felt guilty because he was responsible. He was, in a small but very real and immediate way, the cause for the events of 9/11. But the actions he performed that were that cause were not mistakes.

It hurts to look at something terrible that wasn't my fault and say, "I am responsible for this." But if I deny that when I already feel guilty it's just going to prolong the process of healing. It's tempting, though. Because if I'm not at fault, what can I do? I can't do better in the future. I already did my best. But lying to myself isn't the solution, either. And that feeling of guilt doesn't go away when I lie to myself like that. The part of me generating that guilt knows the truth. The part of me experiencing that feeling needs to confront it.

The honesty hurts, but then it helps to heal. Bringing the reality of the situation and my responsibility for it out in the open helps me come to terms with what I did and what happened because of it.

And it helps me move on from constantly ruminating on what I could have done better. I can look at the situation and see that there was no better course of action. But if I still deny my responsibility I'm going to keep searching for where the guilt is coming from. So I come right back to wondering what I could've done in an endless circle that keeps the guilt alive and burning. I need to make that distinction between fault and responsibility to really fully accept that I couldn't have done better.

Ob1shinobee wrote: stuff

We'll, you're not wrong - but the reality of "what happened" and "what we feel" are not always in the same game.

parnerium wrote: more stuff

I tend to agree with this.

I've made decisions that have ended up with people being injured, property being destroyed, etc etc - Despite the outcomes, given everything I knew *before* any significant event, I'd likely make all the same decisions again.


But that's neither here not there, the dollar figure of lives and property I've caused doesn't put a scratch on Vaughn's - If I were in that league, perhaps I wouldn't be able to "accept" my role in things and sleep peacefully. I can see how he is/was whelmed with it all.

If you get so tied up with your guilt in events, it can be a big philosophical shift to separate it. Easy for us to say here "Well, you couldn't have done anything else" or "you just did your job" or "lol, hindsight is 20/20".

The event was a big one, for the USA, and for the world once the USA reacted. While it might be provable that Vaughn does not own any of the burden - If every time he turns on the TV and sees deaths with the war on ISIS (Which in the eyes of many, is the same people who hijiacked planes 15 years ago, the names/people might have changed, but it's still the "Middle East Big Bad" and people arn't too fussed with the specifics), he's blaming himself - That's a stressful life.

I have a nasty habit of believing that every time i do something bad, it was necessary for the success of whatever it was I'm trying to achieve.

Forgiving ourselves is much tougher than forgiving others. My actions and inactions have directly and indirectly caused a lot of things in this world. We must always strive to learn from our past, plan for our future, but live in the now.

This is a very severe case of cause and effect. it shows us that we are all connected. Our actions, however small, may have serious and severe impact to all those around us.

In the military, I have asked members if they feel responsible for killing the thousands of people that die in our conflicts and wars. Usually I get answers like, I work in the galley, I just make meals, or I am just a pay clerk, or I didn't pull the trigger or press the button. The reality is, if you did not pay the person who pulled that trigger, would they have been there to pull the trigger? If you had not made them that meal would they have been out there to pull that trigger? It is all connected.

We are all responsible for our actions. Knowing that our actions affect our world is important and adds to mindfulness. Did he take the subway/taxi/carpool that morning to get to work? Is it the drivers fault for getting him to work? Did his wife wake him for work so he would be there? Is it her fault for getting him up that morning?

He said "Once it became known, people didn’t talk to me." He perceives this. It is not reality. he blamed himself, and placed this perception on others. He "believed" they blamed him as well. He made this HIS reality.

This was a different time. We assumed that a hostage situation on an airplane was about the hostage takers wanting something. The rules of engagement was to wait and see what the hostage takers wanted. So we waited. At the moment, we could have shot down the aircraft before they hit the towers, we waited. It was not in our plan to think that someone would drive a vehicle into a building full of people. had we, would we have changed the outcome? We could dwell on thoughts like this forever. It is wasted energy. Turn the energy to a positive outcome, do something positive, and not feed our internal demons.

Does that mean we should blame ourselves for the things that happen around us? Maybe we should. Maybe we shouldn't. again, we should learn from our past, not dwell on it. Accepting that we all are connected and that the smallest actions we do, may impact the world and those around us can be daunting. But we cannot sit in our homes and do nothing.

One of my life changing movies was "The Razor's Edge". There is a quote in it that I remind myself of often. "It's easy to be a holy man on top of a mountain." We are people that have to live down here with the real world, not secluded on the top of a mountain, away from temptation and the strife. Life is messy, but we have the privilege of being alive.

"It's easy to be a holy man on top of a mountain." We are people that have to live down here with the real world, not secluded on the top of a mountain, away from temptation and the strife. Life is messy, but we have the privilege of being alive.

I read something similar somewhere - That being a master/guru is easy in seclusion (on a mountain), but much harder amongst the noise of people - The true masters walk with everyone, the amateurs live on mountains.

(If anyone could remind me of the book I'd be grateful. If I can't remember it, it's probably time for me to read it again)