Why do people here feel unimportant?

steamboat28 wrote: That's a problem, Snowy. It's a problem that people have been told by Knights and Clergy and Officers and Councilors that their opinions flat do not matter. It's a problem that people have been repeatedly told by people that they don't have a right to speak about this or about that, or that they're not in the special "in-crowd" of folks who get to be heard by virtue of whatever got them in the clique to start with.

If you're unwilling to tell someone, even in confidence, who the perpetrators are then you're just holding the Order hostage with this. Anyone could say anyone is doing anything to them if they're not willing to prove it.

I know you don't particularly care for my feelings, Steam, as we always seem to be on opposing sides of everything, but it's going to hurt other people down the line if this is really happening. You've been all about taking action since I met you. Take some action here and out the jerk who is being a jerk. If you can't do that, then there has to be a way to let this go. It hurts the community to read endless drama with no real resolution.

It does sound like a funny thing for anyone to say, that your opinion is unimportant, perhaps its being taken out of context!?

And perhaps not... but everyone's opinion is going to have different weight, but in my eyes I always thought the weight of an opinion was based on the nature of the opinion and not the person delivering it. That has been my experience here at TOTJO since day 1, but of course it can be confused with the capacity of an opinion to make change which is more tied to the person delivering it because the identity exists in a different domain of information access and responsibility for making decisions. That will always exist and its important to not mix them otherwise it just grinds gears and slows things down and creates anxiety, IMO.

As a result the 'in my unimportant opinion' seemed a bit 'bruised ego poor me' to me, but if the bruise is real, then it's not egotistical to talk about. I guess it depends on who is saying it.... in regards to how we see them and what we want from them. Perhaps it matters more to us, and occurs more easily, in this sort of forum about building spirituality because if we are trying to exert spiritual care and commitment to others that when it is not returned in the same manner or amount we perceive it as a failure of ourselves to some extent, and to how we want to see others.

If you need help with these things I think this is what the Clergy is for. Speak to someone about it. If rules are being broken speak to the Moderators or Councillors etc. If there is no-one higher to talk to about it, go laterally, if there is no-one else laterally then hmm I dunno, write about it in your journal perhaps. I've always thought the truth shouldn't need to hide but I do have a habit of getting into trouble sometimes so my advice is about as useful as my opinion!!

I, as a Member of The Council, cannot do anything about it if I don't know who's doing it. Aside from somebody having a bad day and saying crap - which they certainly should apologize for when they regain their wits - if someone is upsetting a number of people and The Council does not know about it and know who - what can we do about it? Throw me a bone. Email me at if you don't want to PM. I have to keep it confidential but at least if I know what's going on I can try to do something.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: If you're unwilling to tell someone, even in confidence, who the perpetrators are then you're just holding the Order hostage with this. Anyone could say anyone is doing anything to them if they're not willing to prove it...It hurts the community to read endless drama with no real resolution.

You have spectacularly missed the point.

This isn't about individuals being jerks. This is about a profoundly systemic issue multiple people have encountered at the hands of multiple perpetrators. This is about the atmosphere of TOTJO and why it's occasionally so incredibly toxic. If this were just the same one or two people every time (and sometimes it is) it would be different. But that's not what it is. It has, at times, been expressed as nearly a cultural attitude at TOTJO.

What I am willing to say is that, at any given time, I've caught this attitude from multiple Councilors, multiple members of the Clergy, at least two officers, and a number of knights so large that I can't recall all their names. And it started as early as my ventures into the IP. The farther I go in my training, and the more I yell, the less people have been this kind of jerkish to me, but it has been a constant in my time here. And that is unacceptable .

steamboat28 wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote: If you're unwilling to tell someone, even in confidence, who the perpetrators are then you're just holding the Order hostage with this. Anyone could say anyone is doing anything to them if they're not willing to prove it...It hurts the community to read endless drama with no real resolution.

You have spectacularly missed the point.

This isn't about individuals being jerks. This is about a profoundly systemic issue multiple people have encountered at the hands of multiple perpetrators. This is about the atmosphere of TOTJO and why it's occasionally so incredibly toxic. If this were just the same one or two people every time (and sometimes it is) it would be different. But that's not what it is. It has, at times, been expressed as nearly a cultural attitude at TOTJO.

You can't just order people to "fix the atmosphere", change happens from specifics and it has to be worked on consistently. Again, name specific people so they can be corrected, then the atmosphere will move in the direction you want it to.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: ...name specific people so they can be corrected, then the atmosphere will begin to move in the direction you want it to.

While you're right in that you can't just say "fix the atmosphere" and it will change (see threads about climate change) calling people out in a public forum isn't going to help either. In fact it will probably make things worse. If I say in a public forum "Knight X is a jerk" then all that results is Knight X being upset with me and possibly a whole wave of people who will take issue with Knight X based on what I've said rather than on their interactions with them. Plus calling people out like that is very similar to the same kind of "jerkiness" that we're trying to "weed out" so to speak.

That's why I said PM or email. Nobody is saying to call someone out in the forum.

Goken wrote:

Snowy Aftermath wrote: ...name specific people so they can be corrected, then the atmosphere will begin to move in the direction you want it to.

While you're right in that you can't just say "fix the atmosphere" and it will change (see threads about climate change) calling people out in a public forum isn't going to help either. In fact it will probably make things worse. If I say in a public forum "Knight X is a jerk" then all that results is Knight X being upset with me and possibly a whole wave of people who will take issue with Knight X based on what I've said rather than on their interactions with them. Plus calling people out like that is very similar to the same kind of "jerkiness" that we're trying to "weed out" so to speak.

Which is why I've said to do it in confidence. Br. John said the same multiple times just now. Nobody wants to crucify anyone.

Br. John wrote: That's why I said PM or email. Nobody is saying to call someone out in the forum.

How does that solve the problem, though? Calling out individuals is a nice band-aid solution, but if the attitudes are more widespread than the individuals named, that doesn't really help solve the problem, does it? Especially if the situation is handled in private.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: Which is why I've said over and over to do it in confidence.

My mistake. I missed that part. Sorry.

I also have occasionally seen that done so I wanted to make sure that no one was going to make a "Here's the people I have problems with" post. That wouldn't help.