The struggle between peace and defense

Much onus is placed by certain well known Jedi elsewhere on the importance of martial arts/fitness/etc. in being Jedi, and anyone who has read my posts probably knows my issue with that so I won't rehash it here.

Instead, I wanted to ask about self-defense period, or rather self-defense and/or the defense of others in grave danger. Some people carry a firearm, a thought that makes me uneasy at best (even if I were legally fit to own one, which I'm probably not), where others may carry pepper-spray or some other "less lethal" device for personal self-defense. Then there are those who shun the use of violence even for self defense, principled enough to the concept of peace that they are willing to be martyred for it; this is also a perfectly valid choice, and for some it extends even to letting other innocents die by an assailant's hand rather than resorting to violence, this makes me uneasy as well.

The reason I bring all this up (outside of the gun debate thread) is that I'm trying to understand where I fall on this spectrum. Having been a victim of far too much violence as a child, I have a great disgust for it; I cannot even say whether or not I would use physical means to protect myself from harm and/or death, it's that weighty a decision. However I do know that were my family to be attacked, I would do what is necessary to protect them, even at the expense of my own life. So having never delved into thoughts of this kind before, why do I feel so terrified, afraid, not of losing my life, but of having that responsibility, of possibly making the wrong choice?

I mean if someone were to break into our home when my father is at work and attack my mother, I would do everything in my power to protect her (I may be weak, but I can wield a knife), so then if I know I could save a life (or lives) by acting (or knowing when not to act), why do I feel like even purchasing a quality knife that could be used in such a situation (aside from it's obvious various utility values) is a betrayal of my commitment to peace, understanding, and compassion? Why does the idea of being armed make me feel like LESS of a Jedi, even though it could save lives??

This would have been a journal post, but I was hoping for some public feedback, thanks.

From all I see in the temple Doctorine that means that being willing to defend others to the point of force or even deadly force makes you less of a Jedi. In fact all I can understand is that Jedi are sworn to aid others. That means standing up for those who cannot stand for themselves. If this requires violence so be it.

Should violence be a first, second, or even third choice? Heck no. But to totally discount it allows innocent people to be the victims of those that are less the decent. Which is not to me tolerable in any manner. I am one of those people that carry a firearm on a daily basis. I can tell you that knowing you have such a tool on you makes you mindful and more likely to avoid trouble because you do not wish to use it.

I have even had to draw my firearm twice. Both times the situtation was ended without having to use said firearm. A knife or firearm is like a hammer a simple tool. What the tool is used for is up to the one that weilds it. If we look at fictional Jedi they even used lethal force when need be but only when other options are exausted.

To sum up this long winded response violence is not outside the Jedi code to my understanding. Needless violence or violence done in anger is. One must approach such matters with as clear a head as possible. In doing so it might just prove that the display of WILLINGNESS to do violence is enough. If you do chose to use a knife for such a task please please please get training. The closer you need to get the more risk you take upon your person so please learn to use the tool effectively. Further please get pepper spray. Its a good distance tool that is less then lethal which I have used at least three or four times in defense of myself or others. Its much easier on the mind then the worry of using a firearm. While I would have pull the trigger those two times if need be, I was left ill at the thought. I could have lived with it but taking a life is something no sane and compassionate person will take lightly.

So do not consider this a sign that you are less then a Jedi or less then committed to peace. This uneasy feeling is an affirmation that you are true to both ideas but also know that sometimes to keep the peace the Shepard must attack the wolf.

I think at some point some of that just comes with age and life experiences, in my lower 20's even teen's, I kinda struggled with the same thoughts. Sure the idea of standing in front of a bullet for someone you care about or whatever is a great noble courageous thing. Why? because the media and movies and books say so. But is it something you really want to do?

No one Wants to die....most of the time....There are the exceptions of course, but fundamentally no one wants to die. Everyone has the desire to live. It's the big scary unknown, and a principal to the majority of religious beliefs out there. The only thing I've found that overthrows that desire, is the desire to prevent someone else from dying. It needs to be a pretty large desire to do it. Usually comes with loved ones first, family second and so on. Having children I'm sure helps too. As I've gotten older, do I want to die, no, do I want to step in front of a train to save my wife, no not particularly, but if it meant her over me. Possibly, but I think the Jedi lesson here isn't are you strong enough in will power to jump in front of a train, its to look at the situation and decide why is your wife standing on the tracks and figure out how to move her out of the way.

Probably better examples then that, the ideal scenario's are always going to be the ones where no one gets harmed and everything is dispersed and so on, and sometimes its just part of nature, or the force that things happen, and nothing you do is going to change it as it's just simply meant to be. It can get even harder to figure out when it comes to things like harming one to stop that one from harming 20, or is there a better way to do it that prevents harm in the first place. Sometimes there is no way to predict what any choice you make to prevent any harm from happening, or if it will cause more. In which most will respond in what your intentions were, in which you enter the vicious cycle of good intentions still caused harm, and how justice falls into all of it.

The big philosophical cycle down the drain as I call it, it all comes down to your individual opinion vs the society around you's popular choices in terms of what happens, and whether you are with the conforming society, or whether you will choose to hold to your own choices and beliefs.

That probably didn't help at all and made it all the more confusing, but I'll say this, outside of all of that, and all of that considered at the same time. Would I still protect others at the cost of myself, if I felt there was no other way out of the situation and that they deserved more then myself I would. But only after 30 some years of living where I feel like I've accomplished what I've wanted to. Those that are younger, less experienced in life and its lessons, may not be so eager, and I don't see anything wrong with that either. That's why people choose to me EMT's and firefighters, and others choose to be cooks and carpenters, we all have our choices for how we want to improve our society, just because your not cut out to dive in front of a bullet, doesn't mean your any less able to provide aid to others. You may not be able to stop a fight between two people, but you can bandage them up afterwords.

Know who you are, and know your limits.

Defense is not violence...from a certain point of view. Let me say it this way, If you throw a ball against the wall, is it the walls fault that it is returned to you? It is not out of any intention or malice on the walls part that it returns, it is through your actions that it returns.

So are you being violent, or are you returning what was given to you? This is where the Jedi Code makes the distinction in "There is No Emotion:There is Peace". If you understand that, you will know when you are being true to yourself. If you are being attacked, show no emotion, but return what is given. Be at Peace with yourself in the knowledge that you are a defender of what is right. You are giving the attacker back what they have lost, their own violence.

I am having a little trouble explaining this but I think I got my intended ideas out. Meditate on this deeply, no one has the right to take another life or to hurt any one. Protecting the only life you are given is your decision and yours alone.

Do not go out to buy knifes and guns if you are afraid or not confident in you ability to handle them. Get training first if that is the way you want to go, but if it is against your personal code or ethics to use weapons, don't! I would suggest getting some defensive training if for nothing else, to protect your life. Material goods can be re-purchased, do not waste your life defending them, but you only get one life, defend it.

Being a Jedi does not make it a prerequisite to defend others with "violent" acts. It can be your ability to write or speak out against a wrong. It can be in mentoring children in school or keeping them off the streets. Defending others has soooo many meanings.

KNOW WHO YOU ARE, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DOING...AND DO IT TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY!!!

for you, because of your medical situation, imo, if you decide that it is appropriate for you to have a weapon, then you should get a gun

a knife is a very good murder weapon - its not a good weapon for self defense

a gun can de escalate the situation if you are serious and intelligent about what youre doing - a knife is something you want to hide until its too late - no one should ever SEE your knife

and anyway its not so easy to stab the kinds of people you would need a weapon to deal with

tasers work if the prongs penetrate skin - they have a pretty hefty pop behind them and usually its more than enough but it can be iffy when someone is in thick denim jackets or leather

im not a big fan of pepper spray - CS gas works but i dont think its legal everywhere - not totally sure tho so i would say check your local laws

but a gun is the most effective tool

basically i dont think you should rely on any kind of self defense tool which requires force on force type of physicality - all it would take would be for something to happen on a "bad" day and your entire plan will be out the window

i think that you feel the way that you feel because a firearm does not let you ignore the severity of the decision

a knife can seem almost exciting - even the really vicious knives have a kind of appeal to them for some reason, but think about it - if you get a knife for the purpose of using it as a weapon then this is no different,in terms of your commitment to peace, than a gun or a sword or a flamethrower

but with a gun there is a much more definite sense that "this is really serious"

as far as i am concerned, that feeling of seriousness is a much better place to come from than the one of excitement

it IS serious, and its ok to take your time with the decision

KNOW WHO YOU ARE, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF DOING...AND DO IT TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY!!!

that says it all right there....not every jedi is good at martial prowess, not every jedi is good at diplomacy...

know your strengths, know your weaknesses, know yourself....

being ex military i like the expression "to have peace be prepared for war"...fighting/violence should not be your first option, but it should be an option if you're capable....diplomacy/negotiation is a good option, but should not be your only option...know/understand that sometimes "aggressive negotiations" are the only kind the other party will understand....in kotor 2 the handmaidens race (the echani) used ritualized duels as a way of understanding and bonding with each other...violence used for communication...sometimes the only way to gain understanding is by trading blows....

A non-violent offensive defense hey? Well knowledge helps avoidance, and supports follow-on legal/police actions. But for a workflow... how about distract, unbalance, restrain else disable or incapacitate.... (DUR-D-I). <tm>
:lol:

So, how about a fire extinguisher (distract), throw a weighted net (in a fire blanket bag nearby, to unbalance) and then close to finish with pepper spray at close range in the eyes followed by a kicks in the jingle bells before ziptying the hands and feet behind the torso - it might work!?
:dry:
Plus you can always smash the fire extinguisher on their head if they break through your defense, but I'd probably throw it out the nearest window to alert neighbours and create an unexpected escape route, for either them or myself!! Oh yea, there can always be more then one, so gutting one attacker with a knife might really aggravate the other two that just walked in.

Adder wrote: kicks in the jingle bells before ziptying the hands and feet behind the torso - it might work!?

roflmao.....i literally was laughing my @$$ off.... :woohoo:

OB1Shinobi wrote: for you, because of your medical situation, imo, if you decide that it is appropriate for you to have a weapon, then you should get a gun

I'd never pass the background check, depression from my fibro and all that, been in the hospital a few times of "mental health" issues.

I'm actually rather liking Adder's creative thinking skills to be honest, they make more sense.

Some really good feedback in this thread.

I am tracking with RyuJin on this one. the part I liked and wanted to expound on was:

...violence used for communication...sometimes the only way to gain understanding is by trading blows....

Absolutely. Some of the men and women I know best are the ones whom I did full force sparring with, or had physical altercations with. And in some cases, I don't even remember their names! But I know their energetics. The emotions and rhythms of their action. The skips in action, mere moments, when decisions were being made. There's something very profound about connecting with someone on that level.

To take it a step back though, I might be so bold as to bring Alan Watts into this (haha, poor guy, always in the middle).

Alan Watts:

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

and

Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes.

and

Only words and conventions can isolate us from the entirely undefinable something which is everything.

This is by no means meant to justify violence or direct conflict without peaceful attempts prior, but only to say that at times, we enter into a space in the present moment where we must be the dance, the zen in the potato peeling, the wordless everything, and even the physical conflict. And accept that it is ok to do so.

To bring it around to Jediism: In that moment where all peaceful options have been exhausted, and we must resort to physical violence for the sake of honorable defense, we would do best to trust in the force, enter that space, release dependence on words, and be willing to release self criticism and guilt for taking that final action. Not as a form of righteous denial of perceived wrong choice, but as an acceptance of ourselves as a manifestation of the Force in This Individual.