How to measure potential

Hannigan made an interesting comment in another thread and I did not wish to derail, but I think it would make for interesting discussion.

MJ Hannigan wrote:
Totjo does hold potential. Yet potential is not enough. Potential by itself is worthless if one does not make the effort to see that potential become a reality.

My questions in this regard are,

How does one measure progress?
By whos standards is the progress measured?

and most interestingly, what does it look like?

Something Ive been thinking about of late is that I would like to see a comprehensive, detailed and specific explanation of what exactly progress (or achievement) for a jedi would entail, complete with measurable objectives that would allow for someone to indeed show absolute progress and validation of their "jediness" (for lack of a better term)

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/109496-the-vision-of-knighthood/reply/180581?quote=1

OB1Shinobi wrote: i think first of all that i see a balancing act between the ideas that being a jedi is a matter of results, accomplishment, tangible growth

and the idea of simply being commited to the jedi path

is a person who's behavior is clearly selfish undisciplined and shallow a jedi because they say they are a jedi?

obviously its not my place to tell someone what they are or are not

but for myself i know i am jedi because of the principals i am commited to and the methodoloy that i use to attain and embody those principals

not to say i exemplify them perfectly at all times, but that my commitment is to exemplify them at all times.

i see the rank system as being
1) person who is not jedi but curious about what jedi means

2) person who has found a jedi community or access to jedi philosophy and is "testing the water" in jedi thought

these will be influenced more or less by core jedi tenents or their perception of the "jedi" they interact with.
usually it will be a blend of both but there are those who will merely socialize and use this as their introduction to what it means to be jedi without spendig much time on the coursework
and there are those very rare but real few who will dive into the course work and never post so much as a single reply to a single thread.

it is the work however which makes on a jedi imo

not the course work or IP per se, but the work of understanding the things that the IP is conveying and integrating this understanding into ones behavior

at some point a person is either commited to the path or theyre really just a groupie
even groupies will grow however so respect is always appropriate imo

3) once a person has a basic understanding of the core value and has made a sincere commitment to those values they are in effect a jedi, though not usually a developed one

4) after consistant pursuit of jedi principals and the exploration and practice of methodology, there comes a time when one has actually developed into a legitimate but fledgeling jedi

this is similar to being awarded a black belt in many traditional martial arts
it means one has really learned and internalized the foundation, and the real training can begin!

the gains one has made by this point are such that even if this is where one stops growing they will still live a mostly deliberate and most definitely meaningful life.

5) at this stage a person will see clearly that their lives reflect their jedi teachings
also they will have taken responsibility for their own welfare and initiative
their lives will be relatively ordered and they will be growing in a deliberate fashion towards goals beyond the jedi path which they chose with care and self awareness so that these goals represent the true expression of their innermost character, rather than just something they feel obligated to or just fall into

this is where the distinctiln of knighthood can be made imo

the word KNIGHT has specific meanings

it doesnt necessarily mean one uses martial methodology to serve
obut it DOES mean that ones primary life commitment is to service, to the extent that one is completely willing to put their life on the line if it is a requisite of their service

i dont belive i will ever change my view on that

a jedi in general ought to spend considerable energy resolving themselves to the reality of their own personal death, but a knight imo is a warrior by definition and there is no compromise that a requirement of the rank is the willingness to face and accept personal death in ones commitment to serve

this is always what gives a warrior the impetus to be the best of themselves
because they know that their life will depend on their prowess and their adaptability

also the resolution to accept ones death empties one of a huge quantity of shallow and petty thinking and relating with others
this is why warriors are respected as strong and honorable people, because they think and act from a place which realizes their own death

i would add that knighthood is an option and not a mandate and that the jedi path has any number of ways one may be an empowered and respected personage


thats my vision of knighthood
thanks for reading

i can expand on this but it gives a general overview of how i see it

I suppose the first things you would have to determine are the variables to be measured. Some things would be easy enough to measure, others not.

Even if we didn't delve into the world of standardized testing, it strikes me that we can only measure what a person does, not what they think, or how. So, for example, can you recite the code? Perhaps you can, but reciting and believeing are worlds apart. How would one measure internalization?

Alternately, we could measure how many conflicts an individual starts/joins/feeds/solves/etc. in the forums, but that would not necessarily be a comment on how we live. Besides, I'm sure all of us say all manner of nasty words at the screen before writing something civilized.

Physical requirements would be easy to measure, but difficult to substantiate. Also, we don't have those anyway.

We could measure someone's ability to perform a specific set of tasks, but I regard the Jedi path as being one of wholeness, involving the complete person. I'm not sure how you would measure such a thing.

I think I understand the desire for such measurements. It gives us an impression of tidiness, of control. If we leave such things up to personal judgement, such as a master saying when or if an apprentice is ready, we leave ourselves open for error. That margin of error, however, might always be there. If I can talk the talk, that is all you would be able to measure. There's a margin for error there as well. If, by some strange quirk of fate, we decide that my interpretation of everything, from the most prosaic to the most profound, is the new orthodoxy, then someone need only learn to repeat my words. Also, don't make my thoughts the new orthodoxy. Really. I'm serious.

I don't think I have anything to offer beyond the hope that if someone really has their act together, we will know it when we see it, whether we can quanitify it or not. I just hope we have the sense to embrace such a person. But we are a community that leaves room for the individual to ascribe virtues to the Jedi more or less as they will, within reason. There is value to that, though it is a lossy, chaotic process. I think that particle of chaos is a necessary ingredient, though. In this instance, perhaps that particle defies us.

imo the final criteria will always be a matter of ones life

how much of our lives a result of what was basically given to us and how much a result of what weve made for ourselves

the amount of control we have over our own circumstances and our own attitudes

which is a standard for each to apply to themselves
a subjective criteria for measuring others imo is moot

Progress is a continued pursuit of a worthy goal. That is how I measure it. Are you pursuing it, or not?


Different Jedi, with different focuses, different aptitudes, and different resources.


There can be no standard.


We have to do something very hard. We have to judge our own progress.


Now...if one of us puts something together to train other people into their version of Jedi, then they can judge progress on their own program and their own students. If their smart, they will tailor that progress to the individual students improvement, as I do in my martial arts class.

Something Ive been thinking about of late is that I would like to see a comprehensive, detailed and specific explanation of what exactly progress (or achievement) for a jedi would entail, complete with measurable objectives that would allow for someone to indeed show absolute progress and validation of their "jediness" (for lack of a better term)

This is a tease question your not really wondering about this? Areyou??

This sounds like a science question? There isn't even an agreement on what Jediness/ism is.

It's all subjective and can't be quantifed.

Potential is as unique to the individual as it is unlimited.

Rickie The Grey wrote:
This is a tease question your not really wondering about this? Areyou??

Rickie is more clever than I.

Brenna wrote: Hannigan made an interesting comment in another thread and I did not wish to derail, but I think it would make for interesting discussion.

MJ Hannigan wrote:
Totjo does hold potential. Yet potential is not enough. Potential by itself is worthless if one does not make the effort to see that potential become a reality.

My questions in this regard are,

How does one measure progress?
By whos standards is the progress measured?

and most interestingly, what does it look like?

Something Ive been thinking about of late is that I would like to see a comprehensive, detailed and specific explanation of what exactly progress (or achievement) for a jedi would entail, complete with measurable objectives that would allow for someone to indeed show absolute progress and validation of their "jediness" (for lack of a better term)

Are you looking at this topic from a individualistic or a group point of view?

For example when I test for my next black belt I know that standards to which the school will hold me accountible to pass the test, however as a individual i set higher standards for myself. I am also a firm believer in active goal setting and work daily towards achieving the short, middle and long term goals i set for myself.

Not long ago I did a podcast on this very topic and perhaps I will fish out my notes and post them to this topic.

Brenna wrote: How does one measure progress?

By acknowledging a beginning and setting one or more endpoints (or milestones).

Brenna wrote: By whos standards is the progress measured?

The 'measures' increments as a function of efforts against time, seems to be most useful.

Brenna wrote: and most interestingly, what does it look like?

For me the experience of it tends to associate to the uncontrolled elements which inject 'surprise', either positive or negative. Perhaps it points to how the brain might like to work with curiosity and learning new things. The time taken tends to dissolve as progress increases because you get a firmer fix on the rate of progress as you get nearer the endpoint (as variables disappear).

Just my experiences so far of it.

From my limited understanding of the Taoist perspective, the potential you have as an 'individual' is often compared to an empty cup or 'vessel'. If you ram your life full to the brim with busyness and activity you will leave no space to deal with other events as they arise - and your chances of being mindful of your thoughts and actions will be limited. Furthermore, our capacity to broaden our consciousness and widen our sphere of empathy will be restricted.

The idea is to empty our life of unnecessary clutter (psychological and material) and then we might have an improved capacity to deal with events as they come to pass. I think of training (be that physical, mental, emotional) as a way to make each of us a more effective vessel for carrying burdens (ours, or those of others) when that is required. Then we need to develop the wisdom to know where and when we might take on a burden and even more importantly (in a way) know when to unload ourselves of those burdens, and empty the vessel ready to deal with whatever might come next.

I'd argue that potential and the development of potential through training is really important. A full cup can't carry any more water - an empty one can.