Sharing a locker room with a transgender

Zenchi wrote: To a few, probably. To the majority of tax payers who have children, not so much...

Because taxpayers are always right. That's why our schools are still racially segregated.

Zenchi wrote: So again, who's rights are more important, yours, the parents, the minors?

Granting transgender people the right to use the bathroom they identify with doesn't infringe on the parents' rights or minors' rights (which is legally arguable anyhow, since in many cases the rights of minors are either nonexistent or suppressed legally to start with.)

Try again.

steamboat28 wrote:

Zenchi wrote: To a few, probably. To the majority of tax payers who have children, not so much...

Because taxpayers are always right
Not at all, there just the majority who vote...

Zenchi wrote: So again, who's rights are more important, yours, the parents, the minors?

Granting transgender people the right to use the bathroom they identify with doesn't infringe on the parents' rights or minors' rights (which is legally arguable anyhow, since in many cases the rights of minors are either nonexistent or suppressed legally to start with.)

Try again.

Your opinion. I can strongly affirm as a newly appointed guardian of my 14 yr old niece, it is incorrect and heavily misinformed, where I live anyways...

How is it simply my "opinion" that this doesn't actually trample on anyone else's rights? Whose rights? Which ones does it infringe upon? How is securing the safety of an entire minority worth less to you than a handful of small-minded bigots and paranoid parents?

I've been relatively calm and understanding, but I'm really starting to get frustrated with all this talk about how cisgender peoples' disgust trumps the actual human rights of transgender folks without some serious citations in here.

steamboat28 wrote: How is it simply my "opinion" that this doesn't actually trample on anyone else's rights? Whose rights? Which ones does it infringe upon? How is securing the safety of an entire minority worth less to you than a handful of small-minded bigots and paranoid parents?

Handful...no, not quite.

I've been relatively calm and understanding, but I'm really starting to get frustrated with all this talk about how cisgender peoples' disgust trumps the actual human rights of transgender folks without some serious citations in here.

I merely stated the current situation in many locations, never did I state I supported such views, so please, enough of the assumptions. My point was, and still is, there are better ways of raising awareness than becoming belligerent, throwing insults as a result of anger. I understand, people feel strongly about it, again, totally understandable, however Its one thing to get upset, it's entirely something else to take those emotions out on someone else. Please people, breathe...

it's nearly impossible to protect one groups rights without trampling on another groups...

all one can do is hope that some sort of agreeable compromise can be reached...

bigots have rights too...no matter how misguided....whether we agree with them or not...

often if one group tries to impose their views/rights on another group the end result is violent resistance...

I guess I just have to ask, how do you expect me to react when I can't use gyms because I don't feel safe in them? How do you expect me to react when I can't use the bathroom because I don't feel safe using them?

How long must I tolerate people's ignorance and fear preventing me from using the bathroom that aligns with my gender identity? How long must I tolerate this like a little lamb?

I'm going to leave an essay I wrote for administration at the university I work for, perhaps it will touch on some things.

EDIT: For clarification as to its relevance in this conversation, it's an essay I wrote with the purpose of convincing the administration to convert bathrooms and locker rooms to gender-neutral facilities.



Below are supplemental images referenced in the essay.

Akkarin wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote:

Akkarin wrote: What must then be discussed from there is whether that fear is justified, and if it is whether all transgender[strike]ed[/strike] people should be punished because of it.

Transgender person (No -ed, that makes it sound like being transgender is something that happens to you, like catching a disease)

You're right it does, my mistake.

The world isn't about to bend any time soon, the vast majority of people are against what you want, life is not fair.

This conversation for me at least (as someone who supports the rights of transgender persons) isn't about who or how many agree, it is about whether or not such beliefs are justified when put under scrutiny and in the wider light of our ethical beliefs as Jedi.

I shall not say whether for or against is right or wrong, I will only lay out the argument as I see it and the implications being made when coming to whatever conclusion and then seeing if all this is rationally justified.

i want to point out that this post represents the natural elevation of understanding in groups ranging from small internet communities to entire galaxies

the best ideas make it to the top eventually
whats needed is open dialogue among the interested parties

as a past promoter of unpopular causes myself i feel its important to express that the people you are talking to ARE the minds you want to change and no one wants to change their mind to agree with someone who has insulted them or offended them in a way they interpreted as personal and/or deliberate

that the majority is offensive of your own view is no justificstion for being insulting

if your cause is the imortant thing then check your ego at the door and be an ambassador for your cause instead of a crusader

it works better

the successful models of promoting idea change recognise that people are not their opinions

people are not their opinions

its impossible to change anyones opinion except our own (even thats not possible sometines)

all we can do is present jnformation

how we treat those we present that information to has a very strong effect on the rate at which the information is accepted

if we can consider this a safe place to voice our opinions then maybe we can use these opportunities as "practice sessions" for how we will present our causes to the broader world

I was just talking about this thread on skype, thought some statistics might be fun.

90% of child sexual abuse victims know the perpetrator. 68% are abused by a family member.


ima highlight that for good measure.

The idea of protecting children from "creeps" in public restrooms is as factually unsound as it is a smoke screen for fear and prejudice.

And if having children accidentally catch sight of the opposite sexes "equipment" is such a massive fear, then I think you have bigger problems than just an irrational dislike of a person who is trangender.

Maybe if we were a little less hysterical about every bodies body, this wouldnt be such a massive thing.

Jamie Stick wrote: Below are supplemental images referenced in the essay.

Supplemental A

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Supplemental B

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if bathrooms and locker rooms had signage like this, this whole discussion would probably be moot as then people would have to make a conscious decision about whether or not to use the facility...

if i saw a facility with this sort of signage it wouldn't make a difference to me....as long as the sanctity of the toilet stall was respected...i don't like people watching me when i'm in a vulnerable position...male or female...and no position is more vulnerable than sitting on a toilet with your pants around your ankles...no matter what gender...

RyuJin wrote: i don't like people watching me when i'm in a vulnerable position...male or female...and no position is more vulnerable than sitting on a toilet with your pants around your ankles...no matter what gender...

Putin cares not for your observance of his vulnerability. Putin has no vulnerability.