A discussion on internet arguments.

Jestor wrote:

ren wrote: People get all up in arms all the time, even here. In fact, i'd say they do so here more, but are better at hiding it. It makes me laugh and get on with my life. (although I must admit I find the whole fakery thing rather painful to look at)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

Dont mistake politeness and good manners for being two faced...

You and I have gone back and forth on topics, but my manners only mean I'm polite....
And that I show you respect (and to everyone, deserved or not... lol...) and in our case, I do consider you a friend....

Valarik wrote:

Connor L. wrote:

Perhaps it is a disconnect between conversing with people face to face vs over an internet connection. Perhaps people want to act that way in real life but do not for fear of getting in an actual fight.

Ding ding ding ding.

I'm convinced that when I was 16, I would have killed the vast majority of people I met due to me not liking them. I probably would have committed other crimes too. Sex without consent, harming myself and others, stealing, driving recklessly. I just have a horrible inside mind that wants to see the world burn around me. It's morbid curiosity, and I think it has to do with asserting dominance as a human.

It's a primal instinct we learn to put away when interacting with others.

You have to become king before you can do this stuff.

You have to become the elected leader first. So, you play nice with people. Do them favors, all the while wishing you could just suck their dick and slit their throat and throw them off the side of a cliff for fun.

Hahaha. Maybe I'm individual in that desire. But, I highly doubt it. Some of you have this beast inside of you.

I would never let it out in our current world. But, if there's ever a zombie apocalypse, you bet I'm headed for the bazookas and bombing every house I come across.

Violence and dominance go hand in hand... we can remove somebody's physical ability to disagree or assert dominance over us. It's a powerful thing.

The beast side of us is at different levels in everyone. I am a lot like you in that the dark side is very strong in me. I'm dominant and even if I try to be nice I am an asshole. I like to fight in real life. When I find a person to fight me I let them hit me because I enjoy that to and then I fight back and enjoy hurting them. I find it amusing that the internet allows people to act tough but in real life they would cower like dogs who have been beat.

It's probably our life situations that make us this way which is why I can't let go of my sith ways. For example, I have been beat,raped, tortured. I have seen people killed and have killed as well. The strong rule the weak. Is it our fault we are strong? No. The force makes us what we are or just the things we have been through. Perhaps we have just been conditioned like attack dogs? Food for thought.

Hmmmm....

I see posts like this, Connie's included, and I wonder how wanting (or actually) to give in to personal desires such as these show strength?

I think it shows lack of strength...

Lack of self control....

"If the zombie apocalypse happens" means that "if the law didn't hold me back"...

Lol, self restraint shows strength...

Politeness in the face of some braggart, that someone couldn't force me to lose my cool, lol, that shows strength....

Ah well... lol...

Jestor wrote: I can say what I want without being rude, I do it all the time...

Arcade wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Over the last year or so in this forum, I've noticed that sometimes disagreements don't escalate due to people feeling that they're right or someone else is wrong (though, of course this can be part of it), but because there are two distinct types of thinkers... those who attach feelings/emotions to words and those who don't. I'm the former, so I know what it's like to find myself in the middle of a debate in which other people don't consider potential emotional elements.

There is nothing wrong with either form of thinking. Some people use debate or argumentative speech to better understand the subject matter. Those people require that process of externalizing thoughts and ideas to fully comprehend what they mean. This is typically almost exclusively a logical process, so most people who think like this offer little attention to the reality that sometimes words carry with them an emotional resonance and may incite negative emotional responses (primarily because these types of thinkers see emotion/feeling as unnecessary and burdensome when trying to get to the point of a matter). To be fair, these people don't generally intend to provoke others. They simply don't realize that they might be upsetting other individuals on a deeper level.

That's the point where I frequently observe the breakdown in communication and insults start flying - and obviously both/all sides are responsible for this. People who have natural inclinations toward making connections between words and their own feelings can learn to dissociate themselves (on some level) from that type of thinking (an especially useful skill for anyone to have on a forum anyway). And I've certainly seen those who are more prone to logical debate than warm conversation learn to be more sensitive to those of us who are inclined toward thinking with our hearts, so to speak. In fact, just mentioning this distinction to people has helped me avert misunderstandings on numerous occasions.

None of this is meant to insinuate that people who prefer logical thought are not emotional, or vice-versa. We are all capable of experiencing the full spectrum of thinking and feeling. All I am suggesting is that there are a few different ways of looking at these kind of arguments, and (for me, at least) it helps to consider the objectives and intentions of someone before assuming that they are attacking you. We all know how hard it is to interpret what someone is really saying based on a few words in a PM or forum post, and I think if we're more aware of our possible differences (including, but not limited to the way we think) we can make better decisions when responding to people in this community and others.

There is this phenomenon, too. Fortunately, I haven't encountered it too much at TotJO.

Valarik wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

The beast side of us is at different levels in everyone. I am a lot like you in that the dark side is very strong in me. I'm dominant and even if I try to be nice I am an asshole. I like to fight in real life. When I find a person to fight me I let them hit me because I enjoy that to and then I fight back and enjoy hurting them. I find it amusing that the internet allows people to act tough but in real life they would cower like dogs who have been beat.

It's probably our life situations that make us this way which is why I can't let go of my sith ways. For example, I have been beat,raped, tortured. I have seen people killed and have killed as well. The strong rule the weak. Is it our fault we are strong? No. The force makes us what we are or just the things we have been through. Perhaps we have just been conditioned like attack dogs? Food for thought.

ren wrote:

Jestor wrote: I can say what I want without being rude, I do it all the time...

Saying what you want and saying what you think are two very distinct things.

Yes, they can be...

But, they dont HAVE to be...

I can tell you you are being obtuse...

I can tell you you are being difficult....

Or I can say you are being a dick...

The sentences all mean, basically in this context, that "you understand what I am saying, but prefer to nitpick."

In another context, it could mean you are making stuffing your body in the trunk a issue... Too obtuse to fit in neatly, difficult to keep all the limbs in there, and, the rigor mortis has made you too stiff to fold up neatly in the trunk...

I can say what I want (what I mean/think, which is how I meant my words the last time, but you went a different direction with them) and still be polite...

steamboat28 wrote: I think that one of the reasons communication breaks down here is that so many of us come from so many different places (physically, emotionally, geographically, spiritually, etc.), but we have no common frame of reference (I'm noticing a pattern here) that will let us say what we need to say to one another in an effective way. This is one of the reasons I'm in the camp campaigning for a "critical thinking", "logic", or "communication" module in the IP. And even if that doesn't happen, we should start doing something similar in the supplemental lesson section of the forum. Or start a group. Or a club. Or host a chat/Hangout workshop. Heck with the "we" stuff; when I get into a position where I'm allowed to do so, I'll just start some of that junk myself if there's any interest.

Steamboat, as we grow to know each other, we learn how to speak to each other and disagree with respect...

While I wouldnt mind seeing a communication module, that, I believe 2 things, lol....

1) those who need it most are new to us, and usually only come here to fight about stuff, lol...

2) that is the point of the personal tools lesson of the IP is for... At least as a starting point... http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/component/content/article/46-initiate/1882

But, as has been proven, more work is still needed by many...

It doesn't matter what you believe at TOTJO, because everybody here is so welcoming. Almost all the problems we have here are actually communication issues. That says something to me.

You say the strong rule the weak, and I agree wholeheartedly. But we use different definitions of "strong." The fact that I can keep the rampaging darkness in me under control to such a degree that I am widely regarded (at least, in person) as a good, kind, loving human being should scare folks, because it indicates that I've put my beast on a leash. It listens to me now. When I say "stop," it stops. When I say "sit," it sits. When I say "play dead," I'm a fully-functioning altruistic member of society. That's bought me a lot of time to feed the beast. To train it. Make it stronger, more powerful. Let it pull the plow instead of barking at the neighbors. So, when the time comes and I tell it to attack, it will now attack with guidance and focus. Something it never had before.

Don't underestimate the strength of the "weak." You'd be surprised how many of us have just advanced beyond the need to peacock about it.

lol, exactly...

Self control is the hardest, and it sounds like Valarik and Connor have theirs under control too...

But, it also sounds like Valarik is making assumptions that becasue we are able to spend time here, we dont do anything else...

lol, love when people assume....

While my 'inner beast' is on a leash too, and, is getting older with a knee brace on one of its knees, there is still some tugging at its bond to not smash some fools head off the wall...:lol:....

I also wanted to say, Steamboat, that your quote about the leash is e-card worthy, but not having the understanding at the moment (I have never tried to make one without the meme generators), I did chuckle out loud, and wished it would fit on one... LOL....

Jestor wrote:

ren wrote:

Jestor wrote: I can say what I want without being rude, I do it all the time...

Saying what you want and saying what you think are two very distinct things.

Yes, they can be...

But, they dont HAVE to be...

I can tell you you are being obtuse...

I can tell you you are being difficult....

Or I can say you are being a dick...

The sentences all mean, basically in this context, that "you understand what I am saying, but prefer to nitpick."

In another context, it could mean you are making stuffing your body in the trunk a issue... Too obtuse to fit in neatly, difficult to keep all the limbs in there, and, the rigor mortis has made you too stiff to fold up neatly in the trunk...

I can say what I want (what I mean/think, which is how I meant my words the last time, but you went a different direction with them) and still be polite...