There is no such thing as HIV

I'm not a doctor. I don't know how many members here are doctors and will be able to weigh in on the subject, but I'd like your opinion anyway.

Recently, I found out that someone close to me has been diagnosed as HIV+. He has no idea how he got it, but in general he is in denial. After insisting on him getting treatment, he pointed me to the following website:

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/

Of course, for someone who has just been diagnosed HIV+, it is convenient to believe that HIV does not exist, or that AIDS is not in some way connected to it. But after discarding the initial bias, I started reading the site, and there are some valid points. Of course, as I said, I'm not a doctor, so I'd be happy to get some more input on this subject.

Well the site seems to attack HIV+ as a source of AIDS - rather than saying that HIV is non-existent. I mean they have some conflicting quotes on the subject. But generally the quotes they use are against HIV being linked with AIDS. In fact some of their quotes specifically acknowledge the existence of the HIV virus. As they should - since it has in fact been documented. There are pictures, studies, and reports on the HIV virus. Now whether it is an ordinary retro virus or not - well I am going to listen to the people who are actually in the field.

People like to think Science is a blanket term. He is a Scientist, he would know. Except Science is broken into many fields with many specialties within those various fields. A Mathematician making a judgment on a virus? If you have a problem with your Fireplace - who are you going to listen to? The Car Mechanic or the Chimney Expert?

HIV is real. That is really indisputable. Doesn't mean they are doomed to AIDS and Death however. Plenty of people have been living healthy lives who are HIV+ and never developed AIDS. But every single one of them will tell you it is because they take care of themselves. They are careful, they live the appropriate lifestyle.

Denial is a stage of grief. It is not unheard of and your friend isn't the only one. But for a healthy lifestyle they will need to move past that. They will need to be careful. It isn't the end of dating. But certainly changes must be made. They will need to adapt their lifestyle. But like all things they will need to come to these conclusions by themselves and work through it.

Again the site - form what I have read isn't about saying HIV is non-existent. In fact it uses quotes that specifically state HIV and AIDS as factual elements. They simply dispute connection, origin, etc. Which is understandable. One of the things about Science. It is not quick to just accept. Gravity. Earth not being Flat. Earth not being the center of the Universe. None of it was simply accepted, it took years.

Fact is there is plenty of Science, Research, Studies, etc. which prove the existence of HIV and AIDS. And there are many more facts for it. For productive and healthy living than there are of - it is not real!

Of course people want to believe it isn't real. It completely alters your life. It has been built up as this very scary thing. BUt when you boil it down. When you sit down and get into a deep discussion with doctors and others infected with HIV - when you learn the facts. It makes a huge difference. It doesn't take away from the complete gut-punch that it is. But it definitely becomes a lot less scary.

Here is the thing too - Grief Period. The Stages of Grief. They will and should happen. That is okay. And should be encouraged. It takes a long time to swallow. It takes a long time to come to terms with it. You aren't going to recover in a couple months from the news that you have an incurable disease. And no one should expect it form your friend. You have to be a friend. Listen to them rant. Listen to their crazy theories. Encourage them toward acceptance, but you cannot force it. Encourage proper protection - just on the off chance it is real. Remind them - even if not real - how they felt when they got the news and how they wouldn't want to put anyone else through that.

It is going to take time. It requires time. I highly recommend support groups. As cliche as it is - it honestly helps. To be able to talk about it with someone who has gone through that or is going through that acceptance process - that grief process. It is a wrecking ball - it truly is and you need the support of friends, family, and definitely people who have been there and understand exactly what you are going through.

But yes - it is very real. Your friend just needs to talk with the right people. The people who have been exactly where he is. I promise you - your friend has spent hours upon hours on the computer. Look at their history and you will find endless webpages on HIV, AIDS, looking for answers, for help, for that magical cure. And they will continue this. As horrible as it is - as much as it hurts when you are reading that stuff. They will spend weeks if not months of their lives reading stuff online (when you add up all the hours spent on it). Everything changes in your life. In a singular moment everything changes and you have nothing but a cold hospital and someone who has never been told such news droning on about your lifestyle. People seek for something - anything - to make it go away. To be normal again. To be carefree and innocent again.

Just have to be a friend. And help them and allow them the time to come to the truth on their own. Everything is different. Also - if they are a close friend. Do the research as well. Spend the time reading and researching about living with HIV. Encourage that healthy lifestyle. Because another pitfall is the - Phuk It! mentality. The nothing matters - who cares outlook on life. Very dangerous (generally to others as well - just like believing it doesn't exist). But yeah. It is a horrible and painful time right now for your friend. And will be for probably at least another two years (off and on - depending on growth and maturity). No one who hasn't experience it can truly understand. Get them to speak with someone who is living a happy life with HIV. They'll be better for it - I promise.

Opie Macleod wrote: In fact some of their quotes specifically acknowledge the existence of the HIV virus. As they should - since it has in fact been documented. There are pictures, studies, and reports on the HIV virus.

Well, from what I have read so far, there is no documented case or study that has been able to isolate HIV. Not one.

Opie Macleod wrote: HIV is real. That is really indisputable. Doesn't mean they are doomed to AIDS and Death however. Plenty of people have been living healthy lives who are HIV+ and never developed AIDS. But every single one of them will tell you it is because they take care of themselves. They are careful, they live the appropriate lifestyle.

The weird thing is people developing AIDS but who show no evidence at all of HIV in their blood.

Regardless of whether some people stick to AIDS denialism due to psychological comfort, one thing is for sure, the people behind most AIDS research and treatment are making big bucks as long as HIV continues to be believed as the cause of AIDS.

i have just read you topic about HIV and i can tell you right now that there is such a thing as it and there are millions of people each year dieing from it i no this because my best friend has it but thanks to the work of the terence higgin trust and the world health organization there are tests in place where you can get tested and have the result in at least an hour i have one every year just to promote the test so opie i am completely with you on what you are saying

1.) I am not here to argue the HIV and AIDS connection. As I said - Plenty of people who live happy, healthy lives with HIV who don't get AIDS. I do not study viruses for a living. But the numbers and deaths certainly point to a specific conclusion.

2.) HIV is not some imaginary conspiracy theory. Seriously now. Please - read all of this - draw your own conclusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_denialism I am not a wiki fan, but this at least give you an idea what your friend (and you apparently) are grabbing onto.
As I said - it is understandable. But a lot it hasn't been updated with current studies. The only way to satisfy these people would be to purposefully infect someone, watch them get AIDS and die. Hardly ethical research now is it? And hardly a fair argument against existence.

3.) My only point in replying was to transmit an understanding of the experience. To help you understand what your friend is going through and why such a view is very appealing to your friend. You want to believe HIV isn't real? That is your business. But it is an irresponsible view. And I will not argue with someone hell bent on believing what they want to believe. The numbers are out there, there research is out there. Two minutes on google will bring up research on the HIV virus. You cannot preform research on it if it does not exist. WebMD will give you the proper facts. Freakin' wiki has loads of information on it. Pictures, studies, links to various papers and that is Wikipedia for monkey sake.

It is a horrific thing to go through. Learning your life will never be the same. Denial. Stage of Grief. Be a friend, not an enabler.

HIV is well known and documented. there are different types, and because of the way it reproduces (retroviral), many, many genetic variations exist. We have pictures of the stuff and know it's structure, RNA, etc. (hhmm apparently germans can now "cut it off" from infected cells?)

there are deniers everywhere, they can infect anyone... Many surgeons are contracting it from their patients and do not want to operate on HIV+ because of that... The opposite is true also...

I would avoid that friend if I were you. people like this should be prevented from taking antiretrovirals as well. I've seen my fair share of deniers and the antiretrovirals only do one thing: help them infect even more people.

Opie Macleod wrote: 2.) HIV is not some imaginary conspiracy theory. Seriously now. Please - read all of this - draw your own conclusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_denialism I am not a wiki fan, but this at least give you an idea what your friend (and you apparently) are grabbing onto.

Yes, I've read that. And I'm not saying that HIV is imaginary and that it's all product of a conspiracy. (I can't speak for what my friend thinks/believes, obviously). What I am saying is that our understanding is still very incomplete, and without conclusive evidence maybe, just maybe, we've jumped to some dangerous conclusions. After all, even if modern medicine has increased life expectancy for HIV+ people, medication is highly toxic, in itself suppresses the immune system, and can lead to all sort of nasty side effects. As a matter of fact, early treatment of HIV was "hit them hard, hit them early", which meant going on drugs early and in heavy doses, which of course as these drugs kill the immune system, people would die more quickly. Treatment changed with time, which is proof that mainstream science is not without its flaws.

I would think it would simply be intelligent to question this sort of thing rather than nodding along because it's more comfortable to just take what the government says as indisputable truth.

Opie Macleod wrote: The only way to satisfy these people would be to purposefully infect someone, watch them get AIDS and die. Hardly ethical research now is it? And hardly a fair argument against existence.

Of course that would not be ethical, but at no point are they asking such a thing.

Opie Macleod wrote: 3.) My only point in replying was to transmit an understanding of the experience. To help you understand what your friend is going through and why such a view is very appealing to your friend. You want to believe HIV isn't real? That is your business. But it is an irresponsible view. And I will not argue with someone hell bent on believing what they want to believe. The numbers are out there, there research is out there. Two minutes on google will bring up research on the HIV virus. You cannot preform research on it if it does not exist. WebMD will give you the proper facts. Freakin' wiki has loads of information on it. Pictures, studies, links to various papers and that is Wikipedia for monkey sake.

You assume too much. I never said I believe any of it, I'm posting out of intellectual curiosity. If I ever became infected with HIV, I would seek out treatment, and I am telling my friend to get treatment himself. The numbers are indeed out there, the research too, but it's all very inconclusive.

If your intention was to transmit understanding of the experience, then cool. But then don't tell me I should stop making questions only because the answer is already on Wikipedia. That's just plain lazy.

Here is an article I find objective
http://rense.com/general45/cant.htm

a few others
http://www.originofaids.com/
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/salud/esp_salud33s.htm
http://www.naturalnews.com/033584_Dr_Maurice_Hilleman_SV40.html

Can a friend enable the quest for truth?

But then don't tell me I should stop making questions only because the answer is already on Wikipedia. That's just plain lazy.

Or common sense. One Hundred and Four cited articles. Eight pictures. Three actual images of HIV from the CDC (Center of Disease Control). A full reference to the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS. I don't nor did I say - don't question because of a wiki article. But seriously - 104 resources collected on one page. And I am lazy? You are posing a question that has been dealt with by the scientific community, but is being ignored (nevermind ti is their field of study) because they "are making big bucks." People aren't magically dying. And Research Groups aren't killing people, labeling it HIV and AIDS, just so they can get money.

If you are going to question - then truly question. Don't expect someone to do all the work for you. And when someone shows you the door to 104 articles on the subject with full research sites listed on the page for further reading - Don't call them lazy. Because it answers the question.

Of course that would not be ethical, but at no point are they asking such a thing.

Yes they are. By denying all factual evidence and stipulating it is a fallacy despite being shown clear research otherwise. There would be only one way to truly prove it. And guess it? That in itself gets proven. Do you know why this - HIV and AIDS isn't real - is not a big community? Because these people get AIDS and die. Hard to have a mass movement when those most affected by it start "mysteriously" dying. And if all these supposed HIV and AIDS infected people were just placebo or horrible lifestyle choice - why isn't the movement millions strong - considering how many are diagnosed with HIV and AIDS every year? Crunch the numbers - something doesn't add up. And it isn't that HIV and AIDS doesn't exist.

You assume too much.

I don't assume. I observe. I draw a conclusion based upon your response. Thus the word apparently and a generalized question (not a statement). Your initial response clearly shows an inclination toward the content of the original website posted. I mention wiki (citing my clear dislike for it) as a point of ease. How the amount of information and the simple two seconds it takes to access 104 sources on research on the question. Ergo - If it is that easy to gain access to a plethora of documented materials from such organizations as the CDC and United Nations then the simple reality and answer must prevail.

Idiopathic CD4+ lymphocytopenia ?