Moral Objectivism

I was wondering what the community here think about Moral Objectivism.

First let me give the definition as it is in my ethics book.

"Moral Objectivism has three components:
1. Morality is objective: the standards of morality are not created by human beings or society.
2. Unchanging: the standards of morality are unchangeable throughout time or place. No matter where the principles apply.
3. Universal: the standards are the same for all people, regardless of differences like race, gender, wealth, social standing, etc.

Known champion of this view: Greek philosopher Plato.

So what do you my friends think of Moral Objectivism?

Not to offend anyone but I think and feel and believe that it is total bullsquirt. Completely fallacious. Not a word of truth. If Plato espoused this he'd lost the plot on it.

Morals are subjective. They are not just changing they are polymorphic. Any conceivable change from within a culture or without can cause morality to shift. They're moldable. Fluid.

IF there is a moral objective (note the huge if) out there we are either a) incapable of finding it or b) will not/do not know it when we find it.

Lykeios wrote: Not to offend anyone but I think and feel and believe that it is total bullsquirt. Completely fallacious. Not a word of truth. If Plato espoused this he'd lost the plot on it.

Yes, that is ...

This paragraph, Lykeios, is not a good opening to a debate on morals/ethics/justice. Why do you think and feel and believe that ? Of course Plato espoused it ; the "good" was another 'form' that existed (for him) in perfection ... We live in the physical, therefore our concept of "good" is corrupted as are all things physical.

Whereas moral objectivity, or de-ontology (ex. Kant), comes off as rather inhuman - that is simply denying the concept of the 'form', which even Plato said was ultimately unknowable in physical existence, one also finds that the subjectivity - or moral relativism - gets to be a circus of paralysing circular arguments.

Is the world flat and at the centre of the solar (or perhaps 'Terran') system for "some cultures" today in the face of evidence to the contrary, or could you truly defend creationism simply because most Americans think, feel, believe that it is right ? Is wife beating or child genital mutilation "good" in the cultures wherein it is practised, albeit not for "us" ? Moral/Ethical arguments defending persecution, discrimination and alienation are "okay" as long as it is the cultural standard ?

Do you see where moral relativism gets silly ?

(This is definitely a good philosophical debate starter. )

As mortal, living beings on Earth, where we cling to life incessantly because the majority of us fear the unknown of what death may bring, we think and feel good about things which are beneficial to living and bad about things which are detrimental. Also, it brings into question whether something is good because it makes someone happy, because even serial killers find thrill and happiness in their deeds. If for survival, or for common good, some things could be considered good and others bad, and vice versa for someone else. It depends on the spirit of the times, in my opinion, because in the middle ages, it was considered a good thing to burn, hang, or drown a suspected witch. It was also punishable by imprisonment, or death, to blaspheme or commit heresy. Nowadays, it's not unheard of for us to have the freedom to speak and act as we please, given that we're not breaking any laws.

I cannot help but think Plato's morality was not what we consider morality. I'd like to think he meant somethings innate nature expressed temporally, but its a subject I am a newb at
:S

scott777ab wrote: 1. Morality is objective: the standards of morality are not created by human beings or society.

Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong).

I think Lykeios was right. You have some kind of logical fallacy there. Morality comes from humans, therefore it can't not come from humans.

I've never been a huge fan of Objectivism personally. Don't get me wrong, I totally wish there was a system like Karma where everyone who did things they weren't supposed to do got punished for it later and that those who did what was right always had great things come their way. It just doesn't seem to happen in reality. Prime example, many people who championed peace over the years have been assassinated while greedy CEOs often live to a ripe old age while swimming in their money like Scrooge McDuck. While I admit that it is certainly possible for such a system to exist...I have yet to experience it myself.

Subjectivism always made more sense to me personally. You can just look back to ancient cultures and see that what was viewed as acceptable back then is no longer tolerated today. You can even just look at the last 2000 years of Christianity and see how the ethics have changed drastically from the time of Christ to the Crusades to modern views.

Morality is that little voice inside up that tells us what is right or wrong ...if we choose to listen to it.

Rickie The Grey wrote: Morality is that little voice inside up that tells us what is right or wrong ...if we choose to listen to it.

Ok, but does that little voice change based on how you were raised, what you believe and what you have experienced? Or does each person everywhere on the planet have the same tiny voice inside telling them that something which is wrong is wrong in every situation?

Someone mentioned Moral Relativism.

So here is what my ethics book says on that.

Moral Relativism has the key features:
1: Morality is not objective. Moral standards are the invention of humans. They can be created by an individual or society.
2. Moral standards are not unchangeable. Standards will change through time and from society to society.
3. Moral standards are not universal. Standards don't apply to everyone everywhere at all times.

Source:
Text: Introduction to Business Ethics
Author: James Fieser, Alexander Mosley
Publisher: Bridgepoint Education
ISBN: 9781935966722