The Nature of the Mind

I am interested in understanding your point of view Gisteron. Are you referring to mapping the regions of the mind that we have discovered usually have to do with certain aspects of behavior and cognitive and subconscious reason; or, the theoretical reasoning used to categorize neurological orders and disorders?

The reason I ask is because I was under the impression we spent millions of dollars a year studying and mapping the mind and it’s responses to tests was because we didn’t fully understand it. I was also under the impression that all physiology was theoretical and could not be finitely defined as law.

Psychology is an academic and applied discipline that involves the scientific study of mental functions and behaviors. Psychology has the immediate goal of understanding individuals and groups by both establishing general principles and researching specific cases, and by many accounts it ultimately aims to benefit society.

Yes, what I'm saying is that psychology and neurology have done their best and are still doing their best to understand the human mind and are getting pretty good at it. Mostly I was criticizing the 'beyond our comprehension' bit, because that is the starting point of not doing anything to learn and even if were not the curious human being I am, the Jedi code itself in my interpretation instructs to seek knowledge (although it can easily be interpreted to instruct 'just having knowledge').

But to answer your question, Wescli, I was referring to both, and on a side note, to not know for certain is still better than to say that since we can't, we might as well not try. And people have invested this money because they wanted to make sure they get things right or to correct themselves if they don't - and we need not list the patients that benefitted from the gained knowledge in both the physiological study of the brain as well as the psychological study of behavior and how those to interrelate.

To answer your Question, Rickie, again, I was merely criticizing the quote in that it said that whatever we may find about the mind, it wouldn't be phrasable in words, which implies that it would not be sharable or useful information which is equivalent to saying that we can't find out anything about the mind. On a side note, yes, I do think that the scientific method is demonstrably the only most reliable and efficient way to understand the workings of the mind, as it is the only most reliable and efficient path to any knowledge that has any degree of usefulness; and I can explain why that is so in private, if you wish.

Words can only describe something, but they can never be the same as the experience, and because words are only a tool for communicating, they don't and can't always explain experience, in fact they can limit it and pigeon hole it into an expectancy that hinders the real experience. A world without having to describe or quantify the mind, would still be a world full of experiences for us.

“Nothing can be gained by extensive study and wide reading. Give them up immediately.”
― Dōgen, A Primer Of Soto Zen

Although I think Dogen was exaggerating to make a point, what he is saying is, that talking about and measuring experience is never the same as the experience, sit quietly and observe things without adding to them as they are now, that's the only reality, whether it be the mind or the physical, and of course both are intertwined and the same.

Enough words, back to my zafu! lol.

Gisteron wrote: To answer your Question, Rickie, again, I was merely criticizing the quote in that it said that whatever we may find about the mind, it wouldn't be phrasable in words, which implies that it would not be sharable or useful information which is equivalent to saying that we can't find out anything about the mind. On a side note, yes, I do think that the scientific method is demonstrably the only most reliable and efficient way to understand the workings of the mind, as it is the only most reliable and efficient path to any knowledge that has any degree of usefulness; and I can explain why that is so in private, if you wish.

Are you an engineer or the scientific type?

I think you're interpreting this a little too literally?

whatever we may find about the mind, it wouldn't be phrasable in words

Because we are limited beings there will be many things we will never know.

we can't find out anything about the mind.

Not at all we have lots to learn, more than we have a capacity for.

it is the only most reliable and efficient path to any knowledge that has any degree of usefulness

There are many ways to learn/understand and many things beyond science. If you don't believe that i'st OK. I can't say or am willing to say your wrong and there would be no point to that anyway.

I think the phrase challanges us to think/explore/discover the mind (not the brain) for ourselves. Those that have found answers can't tell/explain this to others until they are ready to hear, when they are ready they don't need to be told.

I love this stuff.

I can explain why that is so in private,

I don't see any reason for that? I'm not sure why your saying that? Is there a problem I'm missing?

Gisteron wrote: Actually the mind is understood pretty well by people who study how and why it works the way it does rather than starting with the premise that it is beyond our understanding. In fact, that premise is a really good pivot point for all sorts of ignorance. As is, of course, the postulation of knowledge in advance to the study that shall reveal it.

So yea, I pretty much disagree that this sort of wise men's statements are wise statements.. for reasons as simple as their detrimental implications to any field of study related to their contents and, of course, that our fair Jedi code instructs us to seek knowledge which is demonstrated to only be obtainable once premises like that it isn't are dismissed.

No, they are beginning to understand the brain better. The mind is completely something else.

Wescli Wardest wrote: I am interested in understanding your point of view Gisteron. Are you referring to mapping the regions of the mind that we have discovered usually have to do with certain aspects of behavior and cognitive and subconscious reason; or, the theoretical reasoning used to categorize neurological orders and disorders?

The reason I ask is because I was under the impression we spent millions of dollars a year studying and mapping the mind and it’s responses to tests was because we didn’t fully understand it. I was also under the impression that all physiology was theoretical and could not be finitely defined as law.

Psychology is an academic and applied discipline that involves the scientific study of mental functions and behaviors. Psychology has the immediate goal of understanding individuals and groups by both establishing general principles and researching specific cases, and by many accounts it ultimately aims to benefit society.

Again they are mapping the brain, not the mind. The mind is not the brain.

scott777ab wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote: I am interested in understanding your point of view Gisteron. Are you referring to mapping the regions of the mind that we have discovered usually have to do with certain aspects of behavior and cognitive and subconscious reason; or, the theoretical reasoning used to categorize neurological orders and disorders?

The reason I ask is because I was under the impression we spent millions of dollars a year studying and mapping the mind and it’s responses to tests was because we didn’t fully understand it. I was also under the impression that all physiology was theoretical and could not be finitely defined as law.

Psychology is an academic and applied discipline that involves the scientific study of mental functions and behaviors. Psychology has the immediate goal of understanding individuals and groups by both establishing general principles and researching specific cases, and by many accounts it ultimately aims to benefit society.

Again they are mapping the brain, not the mind. The mind is not the brain.

Right on...

Again they are mapping the brain, not the mind. The mind is not the brain.

I agree that the terms are distinct, but mapping enough of the brain can yield an implicit understanding of the mind. The mind is a projection of the collective processes abound in the brain.


I also think much of it is up to interpretation. The term "mind" is multifaceted and encompassing, and as such there is no concise set of rules that can predict its governance.

Will knowing and quantifying everything about the physical brain and it's interaction with the mind lead us to understand completely the nature of the mind? Would knowing the technical data and every physical element of a automobile and someones interaction with it let us know the nature of anyone who traveled in it? Just musings on the subject, not rejecting anything from the discussion, but not knowing is cool sometimes, and very underrated.

Will knowing and quantifying everything about the physical brain and it's interaction with the mind lead us to understand completely the nature of the mind? Would knowing the technical data and every physical element of a automobile and someones interaction with it let us know the nature of anyone who traveled in it? Just musings on the subject, not rejecting anything from the discussion, but not knowing is cool sometimes, and very underrated.

So is knowing things, as it would shatter illusions one holds dear. Depends heavily on why one is not knowing something.

Staying purposefully ignorant to maintain a veneer or mystery,or fantasy, is hardly beneficial if one is truly attempting to understand either themselves, or the world around them.

While it could be argued that the mind is not the brain, it is obvious that one would not exist without the other. At least as far as expression here goes, you can observe this with people in a persistent vegetative state, brain damage,alzheimers etc. Especially if they were functioning normally before.

Not to mention your connection to your body.

There is also the fact that the way the brain operates has a huge amount to do with ones individual behavior, and how there "Mind" works.

This has been discovered by mapping the brain.

You can see this in how different people with different mental disorders,or genetic problems brains respond to certain stimulus, where, and why.

Perhaps the brain is not the mind, but as a reciever, it certainly effects the signal,how it is interpreted, and filtered out.