NZ takes steps towards criminalising begging

I was curious about peoples opinions on an issue thats being considered in Auckland at the moment. Below is a piece in the paper today. Its seems almost 70% of people support the ban although police have already said they would not have the resources to enforce the ban. Interestingly, the local charities who offer welfare assistance are already jumping on it as a way to encourage people to support them instead of giving directly to beggars.

Any thoughts?

They're intimidating shoppers, say businesses ... council plan is fascism, say street people.
Begging could be banned throughout Auckland under a bylaw being drafted by the council - a move described as overdue by advocates and fascist by those targeted.

An initial draft of the bylaw banned asking for money, food, other items or soliciting donations "in a manner that may intimidate or cause a nuisance to any person".
But after public feedback, commissioners appointed by the Auckland Council and Auckland Transport have recommended all begging be banned.

The total ban was sought by business associations, including Heart of the City, and an upmarket department store, which said a hard core of beggars intimidated shoppers.

"We have too many examples of behaviour being defended under the guise of exercising a public right to occupy public spaces," said Heart of the City chief executive Alex Swney.

But councillor Richard Northey, the only commissioner of four to oppose a ban, said it was over the top, "provided they don't aggressively or pesteringly seek to get that money".

Cathy Casey, another councillor opposed to the ban, said only three submitters - Heart of the City, Onehunga Business Association, and the Smith & Caughey department store - asked for begging to be outlawed.
"To enact a bylaw based on three submissions from three groups with a vested interest is not good enough - this is a bylaw for the whole region."

But councillor Mike Lee, chairman of the hearing panel, said a ban on begging reflected feedback from Aucklanders.

Beggars would not be "thrown outside the city gates", but would be given support and guided to relevant agencies.

The bylaw was still being drafted and was not final.

"Walking by or dropping a coin in a cup is not a humane way to deal with the problem."
Mr Lee said the begging would have to constitute a public nuisance, but public feedback indicated the act of begging in a busy area could meet that threshold.

"If a storeowner complained and said, 'This guy is causing a nuisance, he is putting people off', then the council will go and talk to the beggar. And if necessary, we will move the beggar on."
Mr Swney said the power to move someone on was needed when all else failed.
Most of the time, organisations such as the Auckland City Mission or Lifewise could help defuse problems, he said.

"However, there are some that are there for other reasons, and most of them aren't to do with begging. And we are powerless to move them on."

Onehunga Business Association manager Amanda Kinzett said begging had become worse in terms of numbers and aggressive behaviour.

Main streets were hurting, she said, and shopping centres did not have the same problem.
Wilf Holt, of the Auckland City Mission, said there was a hard core of about 20 beggars in the downtown area, although the number varied. It had increased in recent years.
Simon Robinson, begging for money on Queen St yesterday, said he did so for about three hours a day, and felt he had the right to do so.

The 43-year-old, who began begging five years ago after his debts got on top of him and lives in a boarding house in Mt Eden, said banning begging was a "bit fascist" and "stepping towards a police state".
"I used to shoplift, so it's either that to get food, or sit there begging and not being a nuisance, and as soon as someone gives me $20 to get a decent meal and a couple of cans of beer, I'm off."

The videos interesting if you have time
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10894464

the local charities who offer welfare assistance are already jumping on it as a way to encourage people to support them instead of giving directly to beggars.

Please explain the difference between begging and asking for donations...


My opinion is they should ban homelessness.

ren wrote:

the local charities who offer welfare assistance are already jumping on it as a way to encourage people to support them instead of giving directly to beggars.

Please explain the difference between begging and asking for donations...


My opinion is they should ban homelessness.

A couple of the charities are arguing that money given to them is a better and more effective option to support the homeless and ensures that the money is essentially not used on drugs or alcohol. Theve worded official statements very carefull so as not to actually say that, but I was in a meeting with the City Mission group today and that is exactly what they are working towards.

Normally I would say this would be an disgrace for all involved, however it does say within your post that they intend to direct homeless/beggars to relevant support organizations. At the same time, it seems like it is once again the business class of the world influencing politics to get their way, in this case the removal of what they consider pests on their metaphorical front lawn

That said, I feel if more people donated to welfare organizations within their communities, perhaps the problem of begging may not be as much of a problem as it currently is. I say may not be as much of a problem, because there is still the situation of people begging not for sustinance of a nutritional or financial nature, but instead of a nature designed to feed drug habbits.

Its a complex problem that needs a complex solution, you cant solve the issue by addressing just one aspect of the problem, and certantily not by making things more difficult for those already struggeling to deal with financial / drug dependance issues.

Kohadre wrote: Normally I would say this would be an disgrace for all involved, however it does say within your post that they intend to direct homeless/beggars to relevant support organizations. At the same time, it seems like it is once again the business class of the world influencing politics to get their way, in this case the removal of what they consider pests on their metaphorical front lawn

That said, I feel if more people donated to welfare organizations within their communities, perhaps the problem of begging may not be as much of a problem as it currently is. I say may not be as much of a problem, because there is still the situation of people begging not for sustinance of a nutritional or financial nature, but instead of a nature designed to feed drug habbits.

Its a complex problem that needs a complex solution, you cant solve the issue by addressing just one aspect of the problem, and certantily not by making things more difficult for those already struggeling to deal with financial / drug dependance issues.

What makes it complicated though is that NZ has a very comprehensive welfare system. You can get a "wage", housing cost supplement, healthcare here is free and even free childcare if you earn below a certain amount, the services are not difficult to access and they also provide work skills training, clothing allowances for interviews. They'll even help you put together a cv and organise at the very least interviews or part time positions. So the question that most people are wondering is why are there homeless people at all.

Something that caught me by surprise was an interview I watched last night with a man who claims that he makes $400 a week begging on top of the $150 allowance the government gives him weekly, which essentially means hes getting more a week that someone working full time (40 hours) on minimun wage. Im sure that he is in the minority, but it certainly makes you wonder.

And yes, around 75% of the current homeless in auckland have also been enrolled in addiction treatment programmes at some point, so theres more to it than just a lack of money.

Living in Auckland NZ and being supportive
of the lightside. Beggers must be condone.

Auckland is made as a international market
to pretend the local are happy. Ren and others
that give no to the matter: think of a solution.

My parents are the lucky ones. No one should treat beggars
as criminal. But if any draconian laws are made. Then you
have. These are broken people without fullfillment. Never
act evil (emotionlist) to these trivial matters. NZ just doesn't
know how to treat citizen care, over retirement foreign or
foreign student.

Mkone wrote: Living in Auckland NZ and being supportive
of the lightside. Beggers must be condone.

Auckland is made as a international market
to pretend the local are happy. Ren and others
that give no to the matter: think of a solution.

My parents are the lucky ones. No one should treat beggars
as criminal. But if any draconian laws are made. Then you
have. These are broken people without fullfillment. Never
act evil (emotionlist) to these trivial matters. NZ just doesn't
know how to treat citizen care, over retirement foreign or
foreign student.

I wondered if youd weigh in here. The rates of homelessness appear to be on the increase and I wonder how its connected to the recent welfare reforms and the fact that in an effort to make our assets fatter for sale, peoples jobs are being cut left right and centre. But banning it seems a violation of basic rights in my opinion, and I believe the law society has issued a statement saying the same.

One of my history idols is Abe Lincoln.
If I have to be a political figure I might.

I mean jobs are all either in business,
the worse if you know what I mean.
I'll government is just a debate show,
the one to win the immigration votes.

Kiwis (like what I was as a kiwi), barely vote
and yes the native keeps us from becoming
a land of factory. Everyone has to have a tax friendly
tone to get a vote.

Thanks for your voice bren. Many unfortunate hearing this
Would cry in there soul. I'M one of the one's with started with rich
folk. The day a rich youth made fun of beggers. That did annoy me.

Brenna wrote:

ren wrote:

the local charities who offer welfare assistance are already jumping on it as a way to encourage people to support them instead of giving directly to beggars.

Please explain the difference between begging and asking for donations...


My opinion is they should ban homelessness.

A couple of the charities are arguing that money given to them is a better and more effective option to support the homeless and ensures that the money is essentially not used on drugs or alcohol. Theve worded official statements very carefull so as not to actually say that, but I was in a meeting with the City Mission group today and that is exactly what they are working towards.

What if they want to do drugs and alcohol? People with a house and a job do them too...

Besides, they're not banning begging because they want to help the homeless, but because they don't want to see them. Also it is my understanding homeless people tend to avoid shelters because they're unsafe (and probably for psychological reasons too).

A lot of money given to charity's never make it to the people who need it most, and a lot of shelters for the homeless are either always full or closed when people need them. Most people who beg would accept food instead of money, that way you could be sure they weren't just feeding their addiction.
Shop's want begging stopped because having homeless people outside gives a bad impression, maybe instead of wasting money on legal issues they should use that money to improve peoples lives, set up a free drop in center where they offer advice or just a meal, it would be great publicity for their own shop's.