Gay rights from a "conservative" view/a more responsible approach.

Red Lila wrote:

Star Forge wrote: White nationalism predates most of those things, we just didn't have the necessity of distinguishing ourselves as such, as what we call white nationalism today was back then called "common sense." Skinheads, the KKK, and the terrorists are not white nationalists. They are thugs, vying for an air of legitimacy by associating themselves with a political movement that seemingly gives them a motive and grievance. And then again there is the difference between a white supremacist and a white nationalist. And any real white nationalist DOES condemn them, but the media and the SPLC creates the illusion that we are one in the same.

Please forgive me if I have not been clear. I am not accusing LGBT people of having any great character flaw in not calling out the more radical elements. However, as you *are* fighting for your rights, and as you *do* want support, it would be a wise choice, if for no other reasons than public relations, to disassociate the larger LGBT community from the radicals.

Like I said, I'm not homonegative. I want gay equality as much as you do. But I can't sacrifice my character by linking myself with the freak show that the public face of gaydom has become.

While I recognize there are differences, and I still respectfully disagree even with white nationalist positions, my point was and I think you understood that there are not grounds for an apology or calling out. That said, however, it takes one look at Fox News or News Net Daily to recognize that it does not matter one bit what the LGBT community does. Even if we were to take such action (which implies much greater organization and cohesiveness than exists), groups that have decided they have a negative opinion of us will continue to and they will fabricate and exaggerate stories to support their points. Also, there is a difference in that these aren't the "radical" members of the GLBT community. They're normal people who like exhibitionism or who are young and like pushing boundaries.

I disagree in that I don't think the cause is lost. Will, say, evangelical Christians (main Fox News audience) ever accept homosexuality as morally fine and permissible? Not any time soon. Will they adopt a "live and let live" attitude? I think it's very, very possible. Especially with the growing libertarianism among the American Right and Center, after two authoritarian presidents.

Fox News can say what it will, but life experience speaks louder than a TV. Community outreach might be an avenue. Like, maybe some gay organization, like the one the author of that article founded, whose mission is setting stuff straight with those who are skeptical, as in, turned off by the stuff I listed. Even Jerry Fartwell arranged a meeting with some gays and had a nice, peaceful time of it.

I never said that reaching out is a lost cause. However, if your peers would look down on you for supporting gay rights and you choose not to vocalize your support, that's your personal decision. As it stands, if you do a google search for gay or glbt, you get a lot of results on news articles and organizations and some dating sites. You have to dig into sites that promote homophobia to find large numbers of the kinds of images you're describing or into the bowels of r/wtf on reddit. That said, google tailors its results so if your other interests suggest you want to see that stuff it might be more prominent for you. More than half the country supports gay rights at this point. I don't think focusing on apologizing for the actions of a small minority who didn't do anything wrong is an excuse by individuals who do so. Picking out small details they can rail against because the subject as a whole sounds just a bit too reasonable to be rabidly against if taken together.

Red Lila wrote: I never said that reaching out is a lost cause. However, if your peers would look down on you for supporting gay rights and you choose not to vocalize your support, that's your personal decision. As it stands, if you do a google search for gay or glbt, you get a lot of results on news articles and organizations and some dating sites. You have to dig into sites that promote homophobia to find large numbers of the kinds of images you're describing or into the bowels of r/wtf on reddit. That said, google tailors its results so if your other interests suggest you want to see that stuff it might be more prominent for you. More than half the country supports gay rights at this point. I don't think focusing on apologizing for the actions of a small minority who didn't do anything wrong is an excuse by individuals who do so. Picking out small details they can rail against because the subject as a whole sounds just a bit too reasonable to be rabidly against if taken together.

Maybe, being in a really religious area, my perspective of things is not representative. However, I do ask that you read the article I linked, he makes some very vital points. You can't tell me that, in the minds of many, the gay rights movement and all the stuff I listed aren't linked. What I mean to say is, I'm by far not the only person who feels this way. More than half the country supports gay rights, yes, this is wonderful news, but wouldn't it be great if it was, say, two-thirds, even if some of them only had a "live and let live" view on it?

Star Forge wrote: More than half the country supports gay rights, yes, this is wonderful news, but wouldn't it be great if it was, say, two-thirds, even if some of them only had a "live and let live" view on it?

I have never been fond of ripples in the water... but, I can't think of one time when political change was effected without making a few "ripples."

Can we agree that, really, this isn't an attack on any group of people, but more how they represent themselves and how they're perceived by others?

Connor Lidell wrote: Can we agree that, really, this isn't an attack on any group of people, but more how they represent themselves and how they're perceived by others?

Thanks for wording it more simply. I feel I am hard to understand sometimes.

I am not one to be painted rainbow at a Pride festival, but I also recognize that some people like to do that. And it isn't just with Pride. Some people are just flamboyant and over the top in everything they do, and that's fine. We shouldn't blame people for ruining the queer rights movement simply because they are being themselves.

I definitely don't think it's time for anyone who cares about these issues to start trying to blend into society. Same sex couples still can't get married in many places, can't adopt in many places, don't have end of life benefits in many places, can't even hold hands in public in many places. Queer people are still getting harassed and beaten up and killed. Queer students are still getting bullied so badly they feel the need to leave school. We are not at a point where blending in will do us any good. We don't even have basic legal rights yet. We at least need to keep speaking out and making ourselves visible until we have crossed those bridges.

Star, I had skimmed the article before but read it in its entirety as well as researching the group its attributed to. I can't say I see what he's talking about. Requesting access to the same rights as everyone else isn't extremism as is his view. Individual cities control their Pride events and if there isn't enough of a community in that city it simply doesn't happen. The sorts of things you're describing are, as I mentioned before, more characteristic of the local community than any larger movement.

The website you linked was flagged by my Web of Trust plugin as poor reliability and accuracy so I did a little more research and while I see his work on many anti-gay marriage sites and on some ex-gay ministries I couldn't find anything he'd independently published. Neither could I find anything about his organization outside of a yahoo group that hadn't been active in months and had fewer than 10 members. I also, in finding some other articles about his organization on the aforementioned sites I couldn't find any of several reported attacks and claims made in his articles excepting a sanction from a review board in Canada over an ad he helped fund that he and the other funders were sued for defamation/hate speech over. I don't say all this to discredit his point, however, outside of groups with such agendas to begin with I have trouble finding anything to suggest that the problem you're discussing is in the forefront of the minds of a large number of people outside those that are going to have those notions regardless of the actions of myself or anyone else.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: I am not one to be painted rainbow at a Pride festival, but I also recognize that some people like to do that. And it isn't just with Pride. Some people are just flamboyant and over the top in everything they do, and that's fine. We shouldn't blame people for ruining the queer rights movement simply because they are being themselves.

I definitely don't think it's time for anyone who cares about these issues to start trying to blend into society. Same sex couples still can't get married in many places, can't adopt in many places, don't have end of life benefits in many places, can't even hold hands in public in many places. Queer people are still getting harassed and beaten up and killed. Queer students are still getting bullied so badly they feel the need to leave school. We are not at a point where blending in will do us any good. We don't even have basic legal rights yet. We at least need to keep speaking out and making ourselves visible until we have crossed those bridges.

I would think that further societal acceptance would be a prerequisite for further rights. I used to be homonegative, and let me tell you that what woke me up is when I realized that all "gay" meant was liking somebody of the same sex. That's it. No drag shows, no exhibitionism. I think if most of the haters realized this, tolerance and rights would follow.

Tolerance might follow, but I don't know about rights. If we all stopped advocating for queer rights and just went about our lives, who would make sure our rights were still being worked on?