Gay rights from a "conservative" view/a more responsible approach.

Preface: I'm starting this thread for two reasons. One, because, due to my rather blunt way of stating things, many people here believe I am a "homophobe" (I use quotation marks because I believe the word is unscientific, and propose "homonegativity" as an alternative) and dislike all homosexuals solely by virtue of their sexual preference. Secondly, I feel this is a subject that needs to be addressed and discussed among people of all sexual orientations, and from both sides of the debate. End preface.

I'm now going to come out and say what a lot of people are thinking, but have not expressed.

First off, I consider myself to be somewhere right-of-center in American politics, as I believe in personal responsibility, free-market capitalism, gun rights, school choice, and a variety of other conservative stances. At the same time, I am a libertarian, which means that, in opposition to the Republican Party agenda, I believe in abortion rights and gay marriage. However, I am reluctant to voice my support for the latter, because, while I see nothing wrong with homosexuality in and of itself, I do not wish to be remotely associated with "gay culture" or the gay rights movement, and all that comes with them.

To homosexuals reading this, you (not you specifically, but speaking of the majority of homosexuals, or at least the gay "mainstream") alienate a lot of people who would otherwise be very vocal in advocating for your rights. I'm sorry if this sounds "homophobic," but I'm telling the blunt truth when I say that the public face of the gay rights movement and homosexuality in general consists of drag shows, militant feminist lesbians, parades featuring overt displays of sexual behavior, a victim mentality, "AIDS celebrities," and Marxism (not as much anymore, but definitely a couple decades back), among other things I don't want to even vaguely be associated with. I'm sorry if this is hurtful to hear, but if you're honest with yourself, you'll see that I'm telling the truth.

Here it is from the mouth of a gay man http://pfox.org/Homosexuals_Opposed_to_Pride_Extremism.html

Secondly, a question for any LGBT people willing to answer politely: why do you, or at least most LGBT people, base your identity around your sexual orientation or gender identity? My understanding, or theory, is that it is a holdover from a time of more extreme persecution, when gays had to do their thing and socialize cloistered away. However, we're what, 40-odd years after Stonewall? A gay person most anywhere in the Western World can leave their home and be openly gay and also safe. I don't mind you coming to my bar, or church, or et cetera. I don't base my identity around being a straight man who likes white women, preferably from Eastern Europe. Just saying.

I'm sorry if this is a taboo subject, but in all the gay-related threads I've read here, I can predict the majority answer before reading them, and I am always right. Asking the same old questions, having the same old discussions, won't cause us to progress anywhere. I am a conservative, a white nationalist, and a Muslim, and I would CHEERFULLY, OPENLY, and ARDENTLY fight for gay rights if the aforementioned issue were addressed.

Sorry if I stepped on any toes, I'm not trolling, I want a civil discussion.

Rather, what I am wondering is why the subject comes up so damn much. It seems that most people here, with a scarce few exceptions, are uniformly liberal on this view, so it seems to me that the case is settled. What I've seen is, to put it in very blunt terms, a lot of circle-jerking about either how one is confident in their gayness, or how much they support and accept gayness. If you are gay and are reading this, I wish you the best. I am not attacking your gayness. I am simply wondering why the subject comes up so much.

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/104044-we-get-the-point#110187

Wonders why 'gay' threads appear so much - creates 'gay' thread...???

I'm just happy here minding my own business, you seem far more concerned about my sexual orientation than I am...

The difference between basing identity off of sexual orientation as opposed to

I am a conservative, a white nationalist, and a Muslim

political values, race and religion is...?

Akkarin wrote:

Rather, what I am wondering is why the subject comes up so damn much. It seems that most people here, with a scarce few exceptions, are uniformly liberal on this view, so it seems to me that the case is settled. What I've seen is, to put it in very blunt terms, a lot of circle-jerking about either how one is confident in their gayness, or how much they support and accept gayness. If you are gay and are reading this, I wish you the best. I am not attacking your gayness. I am simply wondering why the subject comes up so much.

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/104044-we-get-the-point#110187

Wonders why 'gay' threads appear so much - creates 'gay' thread...???

I'm just happy here minding my own business, you seem far more concerned about my sexual orientation than I am...

The difference between basing identity off of sexual orientation as opposed to

I am a conservative, a white nationalist, and a Muslim

political values, race and religion is...?

Akkarin pls.

Forgive me for wanting to smooth things over with all of you who seem to think I am homonegative. Secondly, I don't see this as a "gay" thread, because it's not the token "can gays be Jedi?," "arguments against Leviticus," etc.

As for the second quote, you can clearly see the context. One doesn't generally think that people who identify as white nationalist, conservative, or Muslim, much less all three, would be supportive of gay rights. I am. Please don't take my quotes out of context. I started this thread to say what a lot of us "homophobes" keep to ourselves, that we support gay rights, but do not want our character tarnished with all the stuff that has regrettably been attached to it.

Star Forge wrote:

Akkarin wrote:

Rather, what I am wondering is why the subject comes up so damn much. It seems that most people here, with a scarce few exceptions, are uniformly liberal on this view, so it seems to me that the case is settled. What I've seen is, to put it in very blunt terms, a lot of circle-jerking about either how one is confident in their gayness, or how much they support and accept gayness. If you are gay and are reading this, I wish you the best. I am not attacking your gayness. I am simply wondering why the subject comes up so much.

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/104044-we-get-the-point#110187

Wonders why 'gay' threads appear so much - creates 'gay' thread...???

I'm just happy here minding my own business, you seem far more concerned about my sexual orientation than I am...

The difference between basing identity off of sexual orientation as opposed to

I am a conservative, a white nationalist, and a Muslim

political values, race and religion is...?

Akkarin pls.

Forgive me for wanting to smooth things over with all of you who seem to think I am homonegative. Secondly, I don't see this as a "gay" thread, because it's not the token "can gays be Jedi?," "arguments against Leviticus," etc.

As for the second quote, you can clearly see the context. One doesn't generally think that people who identify as white nationalist, conservative, or Muslim, much less all three, would be supportive of gay rights. I am. Please don't take my quotes out of context. I started this thread to say what a lot of us "homophobes" keep to ourselves, that we support gay rights, but do not want our character tarnished with all the stuff that has regrettably been attached to it.

To further clarify, religion and politics (and personally, to me anyway, race) are things that determine a lot about how a person thinks and acts. All sexual orientation determines about you is what you find sexually appealing, so I don't see it as something really salient or substantial for basing an identity around.

I'm not quite sure what to tell you Star. I've never met another gay or trans person who's sexuality was the center or our identity. Even my friends who are more activistic than I am don't see it as their center nor would I from knowing them. Any group, viewed from the outside as a group is going to appear to identify with the trait you've singled out, whether its politics, religion, sexuality, or otherwise.

As far as the subject coming up, when you're a group that is actively discriminated against you tend to have many of your conversations steered to the source of your discrimination, even when you don't start them there. Every conversation with my mother, even asking about how her week has been eventually comes back to me being trans, lesbian, and atheist because to her those are the most important things to talk about about because she has a problem with them.

Legally the discrimination isn't as bad as it used to be but it still exists, however many individuals and communities still have strong negative feelings. Regardless of the source of these feelings many GLBT individuals and myself included will try and make ourselves known so that others, who are in less safe situations or who aren't as confident, feel comfortable being themselves around us. It gives them a chance to vent or let go of pent up feelings that they couldn't otherwise express. The internet provides a level of anonymity, though this is slowly shrinking, and as such a safe place for those types of discussions. So you'll see more of them online than you will in everyday interaction with people but at the same time if you took any given person in these conversations you're likely to find its a small part of their identity and even their daily interaction, excepting of course if your random sample grabs a "true activist" but that's a risk with any online conversation on any topic. There will always be that person whose entire focus is wrapped up in one subject. Anyway, I digress.

Pride parades were originally a way of showing the world that we were out there and we wouldn't be forced into the closet anymore. As the years have gone by they've become a celebration of the fact that we don't have to anymore. Do some people take it too far? Sure. However, that's mostly isolated to "party towns" that already have a reputation for outrageous displays. Here in Dallas most people show up to pride in jeans and t-shirts. The stereotype I think you're focusing on is the over-the-top gay man in the over-sexualized costume. Those guys exist, sure but they're far from the majority. They're the Pride equivalent of that guy at a football game that takes off his shirt and lets his beer gut hang out painted with the team logo. They revel in the spectacle and enjoy themselves. There's nothing wrong with that. You may not want to see it, but neither do I want to see the guy's beer gut. However, knowing guys like that would be there would not stop me from going to a football game if I were invited and neither would it stop me from admitting I was there.

Red Lila wrote: I'm not quite sure what to tell you Star. I've never met another gay or trans person who's sexuality was the center or our identity. Even my friends who are more activistic than I am don't see it as their center nor would I from knowing them. Any group, viewed from the outside as a group is going to appear to identify with the trait you've singled out, whether its politics, religion, sexuality, or otherwise.

As far as the subject coming up, when you're a group that is actively discriminated against you tend to have many of your conversations steered to the source of your discrimination, even when you don't start them there. Every conversation with my mother, even asking about how her week has been eventually comes back to me being trans, lesbian, and atheist because to her those are the most important things to talk about about because she has a problem with them.

Legally the discrimination isn't as bad as it used to be but it still exists, however many individuals and communities still have strong negative feelings. Regardless of the source of these feelings many GLBT individuals and myself included will try and make ourselves known so that others, who are in less safe situations or who aren't as confident, feel comfortable being themselves around us. It gives them a chance to vent or let go of pent up feelings that they couldn't otherwise express. The internet provides a level of anonymity, though this is slowly shrinking, and as such a safe place for those types of discussions. So you'll see more of them online than you will in everyday interaction with people but at the same time if you took any given person in these conversations you're likely to find its a small part of their identity and even their daily interaction, excepting of course if your random sample grabs a "true activist" but that's a risk with any online conversation on any topic. There will always be that person whose entire focus is wrapped up in one subject. Anyway, I digress.

Pride parades were originally a way of showing the world that we were out there and we wouldn't be forced into the closet anymore. As the years have gone by they've become a celebration of the fact that we don't have to anymore. Do some people take it too far? Sure. However, that's mostly isolated to "party towns" that already have a reputation for outrageous displays. Here in Dallas most people show up to pride in jeans and t-shirts. The stereotype I think you're focusing on is the over-the-top gay man in the over-sexualized costume. Those guys exist, sure but they're far from the majority. They're the Pride equivalent of that guy at a football game that takes off his shirt and lets his beer gut hang out painted with the team logo. They revel in the spectacle and enjoy themselves. There's nothing wrong with that. You may not want to see it, but neither do I want to see the guy's beer gut. However, knowing guys like that would be there would not stop me from going to a football game if I were invited and neither would it stop me from admitting I was there.

I think you partially get what I mean. Maybe I was not clear enough.

What I'm asking for is for the (hopefully) majority of LGBT people, who are normal, everyday people, to openly make it known that the parades, drag shows, and other sorts of vulgar showmanship do not represent them. Like the guy in the article I linked did. I mean, for LGBT people to rise up and say "no, we're not all hyper-promiscuous, we don't all have a victim mentality, we are just the same as the rest of you, and we're misrepresented by the media and our more radical elements." Hope that makes sense.

Just to turn that around for a moment. You mentioned you were a white nationalist. If I were to ask, that you apologize for the violence, the swastikas, the skin heads, the nazi memorabilia, the cross burnings and other actions of some white nationalist groups, characterizing all people who hold those beliefs as being suspect of those behaviors, am I being reasonable?

With respect, I don't think its possible for any group not to be misrepresented by the media.

Red Lila wrote: Just to turn that around for a moment. You mentioned you were a white nationalist. If I were to ask, that you apologize for the violence, the swastikas, the skin heads, the nazi memorabilia, the cross burnings and other actions of some white nationalist groups, characterizing all people who hold those beliefs as being suspect of those behaviors, am I being reasonable?

White nationalism predates most of those things, we just didn't have the necessity of distinguishing ourselves as such, as what we call white nationalism today was back then called "common sense." Skinheads, the KKK, and the terrorists are not white nationalists. They are thugs, vying for an air of legitimacy by associating themselves with a political movement that seemingly gives them a motive and grievance. And then again there is the difference between a white supremacist and a white nationalist. And any real white nationalist DOES condemn them, but the media and the SPLC creates the illusion that we are one in the same.

Please forgive me if I have not been clear. I am not accusing LGBT people of having any great character flaw in not calling out the more radical elements. However, as you *are* fighting for your rights, and as you *do* want support, it would be a wise choice, if for no other reasons than public relations, to disassociate the larger LGBT community from the radicals.

Like I said, I'm not homonegative. I want gay equality as much as you do. But I can't sacrifice my character by linking myself with the freak show that the public face of gaydom has become.

Star Forge wrote: White nationalism predates most of those things, we just didn't have the necessity of distinguishing ourselves as such, as what we call white nationalism today was back then called "common sense." Skinheads, the KKK, and the terrorists are not white nationalists. They are thugs, vying for an air of legitimacy by associating themselves with a political movement that seemingly gives them a motive and grievance. And then again there is the difference between a white supremacist and a white nationalist. And any real white nationalist DOES condemn them, but the media and the SPLC creates the illusion that we are one in the same.

Please forgive me if I have not been clear. I am not accusing LGBT people of having any great character flaw in not calling out the more radical elements. However, as you *are* fighting for your rights, and as you *do* want support, it would be a wise choice, if for no other reasons than public relations, to disassociate the larger LGBT community from the radicals.

Like I said, I'm not homonegative. I want gay equality as much as you do. But I can't sacrifice my character by linking myself with the freak show that the public face of gaydom has become.

While I recognize there are differences, and I still respectfully disagree even with white nationalist positions, my point was and I think you understood that there are not grounds for an apology or calling out. That said, however, it takes one look at Fox News or News Net Daily to recognize that it does not matter one bit what the LGBT community does. Even if we were to take such action (which implies much greater organization and cohesiveness than exists), groups that have decided they have a negative opinion of us will continue to and they will fabricate and exaggerate stories to support their points. Also, there is a difference in that these aren't the "radical" members of the GLBT community. They're normal people who like exhibitionism or who are young and like pushing boundaries.