We get the point.

Before I start this, I want to apologize to the TOTJO higher-ups, clergy, and people that I like here if what I am about to say constitutes "overstepping my boundaries," as I consider myself only a guest here. I renounced membership early in 2012, not out of any dislike or animosity between myself and TOTJO, but because I felt I was called elsewhere. I still appear now and again, but I feel I don't have de facto "clearance" to start trouble, so please understand that that is not my intent.

That being said, when I return here now and then, it seems that there is always at least one long gay or transgender related thread going on, as in, TOTJO is never without a new one. Now I understand TOTJO has a very tolerant policy toward this, and, for what it's worth, the only reason I'm not down with LGBT is because of the "T" part, in other words, bi/homo-sexuality does not bother me, as long as I do not have to see the sexual acts themselves, and, while I may have my conservative views on the issue, I am against discrimination and always in favor of the protection of human dignity.

Rather, what I am wondering is why the subject comes up so damn much. It seems that most people here, with a scarce few exceptions, are uniformly liberal on this view, so it seems to me that the case is settled. What I've seen is, to put it in very blunt terms, a lot of circle-jerking about either how one is confident in their gayness, or how much they support and accept gayness. If you are gay and are reading this, I wish you the best. I am not attacking your gayness. I am simply wondering why the subject comes up so much.

I don't claim to be an authority on Jediism, Jedi religion, the Jedi path, or whatever terminology one wishes to use, but insulated circle-jerking, about gayness or anything else, is hardly what the mission statement says.

I'm really only writing this because this is one thing that always made me not feel at home at TOTJO. I am not offended if somebody has a different opinion or view than me. However, sometimes TOTJO looks more like a gay forum than anything else. Not that I think the discussion is totally unnecessary, irrelevant, or that it should be forbidden, but Jesus, it occurs so damn much, and there ARE gay forums for that. Just saying.

There are always new members....

And im pretty sure different, people are responding... Except some senior members, probably...

As we do speak for the Temple when necessary...

Some people require the reassurment...

I don't read these type threads much anymore, simply because our members with some seniority know the drill...

Does this help?

From the TotJO homepage:

"Jedi Believe: In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin."

I've found most of your remarks today discriminatory and offensive. This is a space where people who believe in that statement (among others) congregate. There are many spiritual traditions that are not welcoming to LGBT people, so we appreciate the opportunity to be part of this community and be ourselves.

Star Forge wrote: I'm really only writing this because this is one thing that always made me not feel at home at TOTJO.

And writing things like that makes a lot of other people not feel at home at TotJO and not feel like it's a safe space to be who they are.

Arcade wrote: From the TotJO homepage:

"Jedi Believe: In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin."

I've found most of your remarks today discriminatory and offensive. This is a space where people who believe in that statement (among others) congregate. You are welcome to leave if the subject matter bothers you.

Star Forge wrote: I'm really only writing this because this is one thing that always made me not feel at home at TOTJO.

And writing things like that makes a lot of other people not feel at home at TotJO and not feel like it's a safe space to be who they are.

Thoroughly read my original post. I never said I had an issue with the Temple policy, or with the discussion. I was just saying that it happens very frequently, seemingly every day. Gay people do not turn me away, but the frequency of the discussion gives the impression that TOTJO is all preachy leftists who listen to the Dead Kennedys all day and judge anybody who disagrees, but I've spent enough time here to know that this is not the case. In light of this, you can see where your quote is out of context.

Secondly, I am not happy that you are offended, but I will not apologize. But I will thank you for prompting me to bring up another point. You ever notice, never once have I, or to my knowledge, anybody else, ever started a thread about the other side of the argument? In fact, the most controversial thread I've ever authored could be seen as a direct attack on heterosexuality, as, in it, I promoted antinatalism, and since straight sex produces kids, and gay sex doesn't, well, I don't mean to veer off the subject, but you get what I mean...

I am not meaning to pick a fight, but you are the aggressor here. Take, for example, Dave Mustaine, singer and guitarist of Megadeth. The guy is somewhat notorious for his conservatism in a liberal industry. He is known for opposing gay marriage. However, you will notice, he NEVER brings it up. The fact that his views on the subject are even extant is due to very aggressive interrogations by interviewers. Let me give you an example: (from Wikipedia)

In 2012, on KIRO-FM he was asked if he supports gay marriage and replied: "Well, since I'm not gay, the answer to that would be no."[37][38] He was then asked if he would support legislation to make gay marriage legal and said, "I'm Christian. The answer to that would be no."

You can tell he just didn't want to talk about it. He just wanted the interviewer to move on.

I have said before and I say again, I respect your right to be as gay as you can be. Gayness is not a reason for me to dislike somebody. This post was not an attack on homosexuality, and I made that explicitly clear from the beginning, so if you're still butthurt, it's not on me. Rather, I wanted to confront what I perceive as preachiness, and focusing too much on one issue, as well as assuming that every last one of us is down with it all.

Arcade wrote: I've found most of your remarks today discriminatory and offensive.

If it gets too bad, or personal, anyone can click the "report to moderator" button...

You are welcome to leave if the subject matter bothers you.

I never understood why people feel the need to comment on threads that they find distasteful, or unpleasant...

I generally don't post in threads that don't interest me...

But, im crazy that way... :lol:

Star Forge wrote: I'm really only writing this because this is one thing that always made me not feel at home at TOTJO.

And writing things like that makes a lot of other people not feel at home at TotJO and not feel like it's a safe space to be who they are.

Don't worry, its why Star Forge can't/won't call this home...

He just stops by to, uh, present the more controversial side, and test the patience of us all...

I can not imagine dealing with attitudes like his all the time, how it must hurt when it comes from a fellow human for one, but when it comes from a family member.... Well, damn...

I hope members who might be offended, are not, or use it as another chance to practice their patience....

Jestor wrote:

Arcade wrote: I've found most of your remarks today discriminatory and offensive.

If it gets too bad, or personal, anyone can click the "report to moderator" button...

You are welcome to leave if the subject matter bothers you.

I never understood why people feel the need to comment on threads that they find distasteful, or unpleasant...

I generally don't post in threads that don't interest me...

But, im crazy that way... :lol:

Star Forge wrote: I'm really only writing this because this is one thing that always made me not feel at home at TOTJO.

And writing things like that makes a lot of other people not feel at home at TotJO and not feel like it's a safe space to be who they are.

Don't worry, its why Star Forge can't/won't call this home...

He just stops by to, uh, present the more controversial side, and test the patience of us all...

I can not imagine dealing with attitudes like his all the time, how it must hurt when it comes from a fellow human for one, but when it comes from a family member.... Well, damn...

I hope members who might be offended, are not, or use it as another chance to practice their patience....

Well forgive me if I think a few people here are good people with which to have thought-provoking discussions...

Most things worth having a deep discussion about are controversial, just saying. Better than a 10 page thread where everybody agrees how much they like gayness or tolerance or something.

Hmm gay/trans threads aren't really common. they're usually brought up by gay/trans people, and we don't have this many...

ren wrote: Hmm gay/trans threads aren't really common. they're usually brought up by gay/trans people, and we don't have this many...

I didn't mean to sound like I'm on a witch hunt or anything, and honestly, the abundance or dearth of gay/trans people is no issue for me, but it seems, to me at least, that it gets a lot of attention. Maybe Jestor's explanation sums it up.

Rather, I wanted to confront what I perceive as preachiness, and focusing too much on one issue, as well as assuming that every last one of us is down with it all.

An excellent point....

I have not read the posts in the other threads, hopefully Star Forge, you are behaving...

Tolerance includes being tolerant of those with different, if not opposing, views...

Manners... this is my big sticking point...

Jestor wrote:

Rather, I wanted to confront what I perceive as preachiness, and focusing too much on one issue, as well as assuming that every last one of us is down with it all.

An excellent point....

I have not read the posts in the other threads, hopefully Star Forge, you are behaving...

Tolerance includes being tolerant of those with different, if not opposing, views...

Manners... this is my big sticking point...

Exactly. And I feel it should apply to this subject as well.

Star Forge's opinion: "I support respect for human dignity, and therefore believe gay people should have the right to be as gay as they can be without fear of any kind of discrimination. At the same time, I am uncertain about gay marriage, and I, at least in my personal experience, have seen a disproportionate number of homosexuals affected by mental illness, even in more tolerant areas where discrimination is not a serious problem, therefore, I have serious questions as to the healthiness of it that I am not qualified to answer. All in all, I wish everybody the best."

Stereotypical generic response: "NAZI HOMOPHOBE! I BET HE VOTED FOR ROMNEY (which I did)!"

Just saying, I don't say anything intentionally offensive, and I believe in agreeing to disagree, and it seems nobody is willing to do that in regards to this subject.