Accident or Deliberate?

#5 - Who is now the wrong doer? Is it the person seeking forgiveness or the one who does not accept the apology?

If you follow Buddhist writings, you would know that life is suffering. Once you accept this premise completly, you will no longer be burdened by suffering. In this context, it no longer matters if you are pardoned or that you have asked for forgiveness.

If you are truly sorry for what you have done, it is only yourself that you need to reconcile with, the purity of your heart will not allow you to rest until you do whatever it takes to make the suffering right. Whether you are forgiven or not, until the "self" is set right, the "self" will not be at rest.

I'd quite like an expansion upon the buddhist teaching that 'life is suffering'. Surely it's only a matter of perception? If life is suffering, wouldn't one simply want to end this continuing suffering via suicide? Although your method of 'denying' the ego (? which as I understand, some believe that the ego is the reason for suffering?) does support continued life in this current form!

This reminds me of when I was a teenager (not very far out of that time of terror, ), but partly about when I lost faith (I was raised in a Christain family, and remained a Christain myself up until this point). I felt I had committed a crime (which I feel I should just name as 'lust' for now) against God, and I felt awful. Despite being told repeatedly by fellow friends and family that if you're truly sorry, God will forgive you anything, I cursed myself. I wouldn't ask for God's forgiveness because I knew I didn't deserve it. For the majority of christains, this- that is called grace is a blessing. No matter how bad you feel you may committed an act, God will forgive you. But I put myself in the illusion of being higher than god- I would not forgive myself and therefore God could not either. I felt even by asking for forgiveness I should not be forgiven no matter what. As I said previously, I put myself above. It was a time of pain for me, hating myself for what I saw as an un-ability to stop wronging, as well as realizing I was playing higher than god and feeling that I was slowly but surely denying my faith. Phortis I think you got it right with, "If you are truly sorry for what you have done, it is only yourself that you need to reconcile with"... But at the time, I could not.
What at least feels like alot of time has passed since then (time is quite relative though). I guess I've partly let go of the issue, I no longer think of what I still continue to do as wrong personally, but it still represents to me that at one time it was indeed a great matter of importance. Funnily enough in comparison, it doesn't feel it matters anymore.

"...the purity of your heart will not allow you to rest until you do whatever it takes to make the suffering right. Whether you are forgiven or not, until the "self" is set right, the "self" will not be at rest." If this is the case, I feel sorry for us, because some of us may have complicated matters by mixing issues, and damaging ourselves- How can we be at peace like this? I'm not sure if we know even what 'setting right' is anymore, and we often exist just because what else is there to do? I think one must be very certain in who they ARE to believe this statement, and also in whatever belief that allows them to 'be at rest' whether that be in 'god' or the complete acceptance that 'life is suffering'. I am not at rest at the moment, but I'm not sure I ever will be for an ultimate 'ever-after', which makes me ask- is this something close to the buddhism you mentioned, that 'life is suffering'? Although I do also believe I can be at rest and sometimes have been, but I see myself in this flux between happiness, nu-happiness, peace, not-in-peace etc.
Excuse the rant!

If by 'justify' you mean that the fact something was an accident would make what happened any less bad, I'd have to say no. And this is why I apologize if I made a mistake and regret it. If I did something on purpose or not and someone thinks its bad while I don't feel any guilt about it - why would I tell them I was sorry if I'm not, right?

Still, it does matter when responsibility is set aside. If you do something wrong by accident, it is only your action that ends up having been wrong while there is nothing particularly about yourself. And if you actually realise that and apologize, while that doesn't help what happened, at least you expressed understanding of it and that you will try to avoid it in the future as far as it is in your power.

If your action was deliberate and later you realise it was wrong, you might have become a better person and while that still doesn't help what happened, you'll see that it will not happen again.

It is in both cases however not the apology that makes you any better person and I think that one must never hope or think to give away one's responsibility for actions just by saying you were sorry (let alone how honest that would be, too). I would even go so far and say that the concept of salvation from a punishment through redemption is highly immoral since it doesn't compensate for the problem while releases any sense of responsibility for one's actions (if they were intentional) or the need of care for how they are and what they might cause (if they were accidental).

Anyway, no, when it comes to a question of responsibility (not of its magnitude but wether there is one at all), intent or no intent have no bearing on the value of the action.

Vusuki,

There is no way I can explain Buddhism and all of its teachings in this simple thread. I would suggest that you do as I have done, RESEARCH.

I did not hear you "Rant", I heard a rebuttal to a comment...discussion or debate if you will. SO lets discuss:

Simply put, if you look at suffering as an inevitability in life, (not that every day is suffering) it is with the realization that suffering will occur, that allows you to work with it, roll with it, accept the suffering not as a bad thing, but as a normal part of life to be taken as you would a birthday gift. Acceptance reduces the pain of suffering. As you learn to accept the suffering it no longer is suffering.

There are no accidents. Somewhere inside you it was intentional. If you didn't mean to hurt someone why did you raise you fist in the first place? Or If you didn't mean to shoot anyone, why were you holding a gun? Pulling the triger is a concious decision.
Also remember that "right and wrong"/"good and evil" is just societys' point of view. It may be illigal here but it might be acceptable and encouraged elsewere in the world.
Know thyself and learn control.

My ex-wife accidentally killed a young lady, and seriously injured her friend...

Trust me, there are accidents...

She was driving down the road at 40 miles per hour, and the two girls stepped right in front of her with no time for reaction...

Sometimes, stuff happens...

Any one can say, "well this" and "well that"...

In the end, it was a "comedy of errors", this is what makes a true accident..

Phortis Nespin wrote: I would like to add this question...

If we are asking for forgiveness because of a wrong we have done, and the subject of our wrong doing does not accept our apology:

1 - Do we retract our apology?
2 - Do we continue to to seek forgiveness?
3 - Do we move on with our lives knowing what we did was wrong and be mindful of it in the future so as not to repeat it?
4 - Do we try to make up for it by gifts and special favors?
5 - Who is now the wrong doer? Is it the person seeking forgiveness or the one who does not accept the apology?

An apology is an atempt at self justification. If you have done something wrong "Own up to it" acknowledge your wrong doing and ask for forgiveness, NOT apologize,(there IS a difference) then do #3. IF they give you forgiveness humbly accept and thank them for it.(still do #3)

Thankyou Phortis for your response, and I realize it isn't fair of me to ask you to simplify the entirety of Buddhism! I apologize...

"Simply put, if you look at suffering as an inevitability in life, (not that every day is suffering) it is with the realization that suffering will occur, that allows you to work with it, roll with it, accept the suffering not as a bad thing, but as a normal part of life to be taken as you would a birthday gift. Acceptance reduces the pain of suffering. As you learn to accept the suffering it no longer is suffering."
This sounds at first like a good way of going through life, reducing general stress and suffering, but I'd like to ask whether this acceptance of suffering is [strike]always [/strike] mostly a good idea? Would you fight for your and fellow's rights if you believed that this suffering was natural and to be accepted? Would you accept suffering readily without trying to avoid it? I don't particularly like the idea of the inevitability of suffering and I'm not sure I'd like to accept it yet. It's my wishful thinking that you could have happiness without unhappiness, (or Black without white, or vice versa...) but That's the fun of the game perhaps... Thanks anyhow Phortis (and others) for your input into this discussion

We'll talk about this when I get home ...

As the others have told you, sometimes it doesn't matter if it is 'accidental' or 'deliberate', you still get spanked (gently, of course, but still ...) for causing someone else's unnecessary suffering, even if they helped you create the accident.

Having a vague notion of what you're on about, I'll support what the others have told you and still spank you - and I'm not so convinced that these sorts of 'accidents' are purely 'accidental' ...

Here's the thing, Vusuki : if you cause an 'accident' in trying to pad your own ego (with pleasure or power) then it becomes a sort of 'deliberate accident'. And yes, that implies a debt, regardless of what anyone says.

*HUG*