Mental Health.

Thank you for the links, steamboat - I especially like the 21 tips.
I, too, have multiple diagnosis and have since I was extremely young.
I remember my mom crying as they told her what was "wrong" with me and being told, "it isn't you it's your *insert diagnosis here*.".
I grew up thinking that way - until I met my husband now who has been a light and a rock for me. He sat me down one day and said things to me that no one had ever said before... in ways no one else could. He made me look at myself in a completely different way and lifted a weight from my shoulders I didn't even know I was carrying.
Does it still hurt? Like hell sometimes.
Do I understand it? No.
I also really hate talking about it, still.
So I normally just don't.
But sometimes it's nice to hear others talk about it.. to know you're not alone.
So, thank you for this thread and for those who have shared part of themselves that is so vulnerable and misunderstood.
I'm sending warm e-hugs to all of you

Kamizu, you've summed up really what I was going to say.

If you can't look at yourself in the mirror, or you obsess over food, or you want to sit in the dark all day and not talk to people, these are no less painful, but perhaps often people do not realise that these are symptoms because they are not physical.

I had depression at a time I was supporting someone else with depression and it was unbearable; for a long time I never even realised I had a problem. I told someone I thought I was depressed and they told me I was being stupid. Perhaps the problem is education; we know the symptoms of lung cancer, meningitis, even the flu but does everyone know the symptoms of depression, or bi polar disorder? Probably not.

Wescli Wardest wrote: That is very touching Kamizu... and very informative. Thank you for sharing.

I have never been diagnosed with anything and (I don't know how to say it without sounding callous) I am always trying to "figure" it out and understand it. Mainly because it is a topic that does hold a significance to me for personal reasons.

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a few questions and if you would answer them and they are too personal, PM would be cool too.

I'm all for trying to explain it to someone trying to understand It's sometimes like trying to explain faith to someone who's never believed in anything outside themselves sometimes so most of what I have are stories haha. Ask away! There's little I won't talk about and lots I don't have the answers to but I can offer what I've got

Wescli Wardest wrote: Do you know what started it? Like... what was the reason?

For my anxiety, there's a few things. Nature AND experiences. Now, I'm sure there are lots of different kinds of anxieties but how it was explained to me is it's a "Fight or Flight" instinct.

When you have your web browser open, and you want to get to the forums here and a specific thread, you could do one of two things: Type in the web address to TotJO, click on the forum button, browse to the section your thread is in, find your thread, and there ya go! OR you could save that thread in your Favorites.

Fight or Flight is your brain making a favorite. There's a bear > Run! Instead of There's a bear>the bear is bigger than me>it's stronger and has lots of claws and teeth>I probably won't win a fight against this bear>I should run> RUN! The shortcut is good, right? Problem with anxiety is it makes 'Favorites' all over the place for silly things. Husband says: "Hey! Lets do this new thing!" and I go strait into "*fear* here's all my excuses why I can't do this" (Flight) and if he corners me I get angry and snap at him (Fight)

Why am I afraid of new things? It's a bit two-fold. My mother has high anxiety and is VERY prone to panic attacks. I 'learned' anxiety from her, as well as naturally having the issue myself. She basically didn't allow us to do anything growing up so it's hard for me to do it now. But what we found out in therapy went kind of like this:

I'm afraid to go to new places/do new things> because I feel like I'm wrong > because I'm worried about doing something wrong > because I don't like doing something wrong > because when I was young, I was teased. So I did everything I could to not stand out. When I do something different or wrong, I stand out and get teased for it.

And it took us three months to get there. Because all my brain does is New?> BE AFRAID!

As far as depression, I'm not entirely sure. That's something I was diagnosed with when I was in High School, and refused to believe in it (in myself) most days. I don't know if I DO have it, or if it's my results of getting stressed and breaking down from anxiety. But there are plenty of times where I was 'down in the dumps' for no reason. I just stayed quietly to myself in my little hole.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Does isolating yourself create a cycle that just worsens the condition? (that is just a theory)

In my experience it most certainly does. You're breaking several of the wellness pillars with it. Physical, mental, spiritual, social. Actually, come to think of it, you break all of them as you go. You're already mentally unwell, withdrawing leads to no social wellness, too tired to do any physical wellness, and in depression spiritual wellness is unimportant along with everything else. It always seems that EVERYTHING goes wrong at the time. I cling to little things to try and make me happy and it always seems that those fail and I'm left with nothing. And THEN I don't even have the energy to clean the house so it gets bad, then I get frustrated that it gets bad, then enter my ADHD which says "Ooo, that's setting you in anxiety? Look! Something shiny!" so the house doesn't get cleaned, so I get frustrated....wheeeee down the spiral we go!

Wescli Wardest wrote: And I guess a question to everyone else, how do you "know" you might have an issue?

I meant to touch on this in my first post. Most of the time you don't. I'm 29 years old and only just realizing things. I blamed me having a fear of going places on my mom. She actually had a much much much smaller impact on it than I thought. It took me chatting with a friend of mine I met while I was deployed last who has anxiety/OCD to point it out to me. I didn't think anything was WRONG with me necessarily. Only that I was a coward compared to 'most people'

I guess the big point is recognize when yourself or another may need help. It's not a weakness to seek help. I had to reconcile some of the creeds I've lived by. The Airman's creed, Middle line "My mission is to Fly, Fight, and Win." And the last two lines: "I will never falter/ and I will not fail." You know what? these are just pretty words. They only hold for so long before I break. When I break, do I fail? Did I falter? Did I lose? We feed these lines to our Airmen. They learn this going through Basic Training. This is what they are built around. What happens when they find what they were standing on no longer supports them? *shrug* Our current catch-phrase is "Resiliency!" What the ---- is that? Can I get it at Walmart? Two gallons please! One "Resiliency Day" we went out to watch a military movie. I hit panic attack. I don't watch modern military movies because I don't like how they make me feel. I told my boss that she could give me paperwork right now, because I wasn't going to the movie. Didn't care if it was ordered by the Commander. Wasn't going.

The other creed we all should recognize: "I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;". Initially I took it to mean that we should NEVER look for help. Only offer it. But perhaps it means more that I offer help more than I receive it.

Well this came out a little longer than I thought it would hopefully I answered some of your questions but I'm sure I generated more haha. Remember, this is all from my understanding, experiences, and point of view. If anyone has questions, I'm more than willing to try and answer them.

Best description of anxiety disorder I have ever read, and I've read a few. Thank you.

tzb wrote: Best description of anxiety disorder I have ever read, and I've read a few. Thank you.

Thank you! I was trying to figure out how to explain it so it was understandable by everyone. I have this mental image of the brain being a bunch of wiring and anxiety being a bunch of shorts along the wires...but not everyone has an understanding of electricity

Wescli Wardest wrote: And I guess a question to everyone else, how do you "know" you might have an issue?

For me, as a generally rational person, the recurring theme was having thoughts and feelings I couldn't explain. I don't mean just random things flitting into your head, all willy-nilly, but things that you should be able to explain. Like, when you're hating on yourself for absolutely no reason, or when you're worried you're going to screw something up when you know you've got it right. Or when you're sitting in the floor, seriously contemplating ending your life, and you suddenly realize "This isn't normal. There's not a chain of events that's led me to this decision. I'm just...doing things."

That was it for me. When I knew that I didn't make any sense sometimes, I knew I had a problem. When I couldn't deal with it on my own any longer, I knew I needed to seek external help.

Sorry for the double-post, but a friend of a friend just pointed out this very brand-new and far too topical for my tastes post by Wil Wheaton: and i am nothing of a builder

It's times like this, when he's dead-on right about exactly how I feel that I just wanna put on my best Patrick Stewart voice and say the thing.

steamboat28 wrote: If the ability to control our mood is solely within our mind, then obviously we're well and truly screwed up failures if we can't get hold of that. If the answer is so simple as to just "be happy," and we can't even do that right, what good are we?

No, the truth is that it is within your ability, but no one bothers to teach people how or give them the tools to do it. And the answer is not “simple”, but it is true. Its not your fault if you have no idea how.

*I am aware that I may not be particularly popular after this post, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. This is only my opinion based on my own experience and observations through study and work.

I was diagnosed with depression when I was quite young and suffered from it for almost 10 years. In that time I also had a serious eating disorder, self harmed and attempted suicide twice, and at the worst of it, for 2 full years I never left the house. Not once.

I also had very little effective support through my experience. The mental health system relies on throwing mood altering drugs at you and hoping the problem goes away enough so that you aren’t a burden on the system. After nearly 8 years I got to a point where I started asking “Why can my doctor not give me clearer answers? Why has this happened to me? What is actually wrong with me? So I started digging and educating myself. And what I found led me to start pursuing studies in psychology, counseling and the treatment of mental health issues, which form the basis of a private coaching group that I run in conjunction with 2 psychologists and a nutritionist.

Firstly. We do not know for certain what causes depression. The chemical imbalance hypothesis is currently the best working model available but does still not explain many of the issues around depression and anxiety. Even the people who write the most widely used diagnostics manual have admitted publically that the definitions and causes are vague. And despite startling and well supported research, the medical diagnosis for most mental disorders has not been updated since the early 90’s.

Secondly. The reason depression and anxiety are not treated as an illness is because they are not an illness. They are symptoms of an illness. Depression can be a related symptom of or caused by: Hormonal imbalance, trauma, stress, malnutrition, sleep deprivation, celiac disease, lupus, syphilis, toxoplasmosis, anemia, chronic fatigue, hypocortisolism, adrenal fatigue, hashimotos, hypothyroidism, pituitary tumors, hypoglycemia, concussions, long term smoking…and many other conditions. But very very few people diagnosed with depression are EVER offered additional tests to check for underlying issues.

Thirdly, antidepressants do not cure depression. They are not even designed to. In fact, to be allowed a patent to manufacture an anti depressant, the drug only has to be shown to be “marginally more effective that a placebo in 2 studies”. In addition, the studies where it is NOT more effective than a candy pill, do not have to be published or referenced (dontcha love science). They are meant to alleviate the worst of the symptoms and render the person “functional”.

The current model is an entirely physiologically based one. Ie, there’s something wrong with the body/and brain which causes the physical and psychological symptoms of mood disorders. But this paradigm has consistently shown itself to be flawed, leading to the question, could biochemical imbalances or aberrant blood flow patterns in the brain be additional symptoms rather than causes of depression?

I personally believe that in the majority of cases, this is accurate.

If depression was caused by a chemical imbalance that was uncontrollable, why does nutritional therapy, exercise, cognitive behavioral therapy, neuro- linguistic programming, meditation, acupuncture, yoga and personal spiritual practices show consistently both in studies and through antidotal evidence to be effective in the management and cure of depression? And why, during clinical studies, would placebos be almost as effective as drugs?

Thinking happy thoughts will NOT help you. BUT (and this is where the unhelpful but well meaning people always get it wrong) it is the watered down version of one solution. We do not teach people about the long term physical effects of the way our minds work. Nor do we teach people emotional and self management. None of which has anything to do with flouncing around like you’re in a positivity bubble riding on unicorns and just “getting over it”. What we do teach people is that they have a condition that’s “happened” to them which makes them broken. And in the process we victimize them and take away their ability to have control over the illness. We also never teach people to look past the symptoms to find the underlying issue, and fix it. If you had a broken leg you wouldn’t just take pain killers to manage the symptom of pain, you’d get your damn leg fixed! Depression is no different.

You can’t just “snap out of it” or “smile and cheer up” It’s not that simple, its damn hard work and its tough going. And it’s a twofold attack because you are not just body or brain. Find the physical issues and resolve them, find the underlying psychological issues and resolve them. It straightforward, but it’s not simple or easy. No one recovers from depression without working their asses off for it and being consistent in their approach, but it IS possible.




*climbs off soap box

Sorry for the rant. Im just so tired of seeing brilliant people debilitated by shittly used science and a medical community that encourages people to be helpless bystanders in their own lives.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's been willing to share their own experiences with mental health issues, be it depression or anxiety or what have you. I think it's safe to say that too often, these issues are lumped together, generalized, and even demonized, so for people to come out and say, in no uncertain terms, "Yes, I have this issue, this is how it affects me, and it's an on-going thing" is very eye-opening, and quite frankly inspiring.

So thank you again.

If it makes you feel any better Brenna, my Mental Health doc didn't even MENTION medication to me. First: he gave me the tools to handle what I was experiencing (many of them were akin to meditation). THEN we spent a long time figuring out where it all came from. He never sent me to a physical appointment though. I don't know if I didn't warrant it or if it's not what they do.

It's not an easy fix. I've only seen the start of one panic attack since the doc said he felt I didn't need him anymore (I was of course welcome to come back anytime I wanted) but managed to stop the attack before it went into full-fledged panic...granted it took me a few hours to recognize what it was....

It's a long and difficult battle I'm fighting against myself...and I don't always win. And when I don't win I have two options: get angry at myself because I'm weak, or forgive myself for the momentary laps. And when I'm already beaten down, it's not easy to forgive.

So when I reach out to friends I typically end up with that attitude we were discussing lol.

But some people need more help than I do.

Brenna wrote: No, the truth is that it is within your ability, but no one bothers to teach people how or give them the tools to do it. And the answer is not “simple”, but it is true. Its not your fault if you have no idea how.

Brenna wrote: If depression was caused by a chemical imbalance that was uncontrollable, why does nutritional therapy, exercise, cognitive behavioral therapy, neuro- linguistic programming, meditation, acupuncture, yoga and personal spiritual practices show consistently both in studies and through antidotal evidence to be effective in the management and cure of depression? And why, during clinical studies, would placebos be almost as effective as drugs?

This raises a pretty good point, actually. I mean, if we can control our minds (through superior levels of enlightenment), then we can control the chemical processes of said brain (provided that is the root cause of these illnesses, as many claim), and rid ourselves of them for good. Then, the only people who'll be depressed, or bipolar, or schizophrenic will be those who are too ignorant to understand the process.

Hell, this could work on other ailments, too. I mean, if the chemical model is correct (which I know you don't believe is the case), and every process in the body is governed by electrical or chemical signals (which is why the medical industry pushes pills, in theory), then there's no reason a sufficiently disciplined person can't heal anything wrong with their own body by consciously manipulating those signals. That's amazing news, actually. It means I can stop getting headaches and repair my knees through the power of meditation and willpower. It means that my cousin can learn to direct his nervous system to repair the damage done to his spine and get rid of that wheelchair (though his "handicapped sticker" tattoo would look odd, then.) Maybe, given a proper counselor and some time to clear her head, my aunt could've dispensed with all the doctors and treatments and pain medications, and just thought herself out of that non-Hodgkins lymphoma wracking her body slowly until she died gasping in pain. My mother will be thrilled to hear it.

Brenna wrote: Firstly. We do not know for certain what causes depression. The chemical imbalance hypothesis is currently the best working model available but does still not explain many of the issues around depression and anxiety.

The theory of evolution is the best model available to us for the current state of biological affairs, but that doesn't mean we should all beat down the doors of the Creation Museum. The chemical imbalance hypothesis remains because (for at least a significant portion of the research community) it is the best possible model, and until new information is uncovered, it is helpful to treat it as though it's correct.

Brenna wrote: Secondly. The reason depression and anxiety are not treated as an illness is because they are not an illness. They are symptoms of an illness.

Prithee, what illness? Is it a mental illness? Or is it a physical illness? Perhaps one caused by...I dunno...occasional chemical imbalance or faulty neural pathways?

Brenna wrote: Thirdly, antidepressants do not cure depression.

I don't recall anyone here saying they did. I also don't recall anyone saying that they are the only treatment option. They are the most efficient way extant to bring the body's chemistry back in line with "normality" long enough to formulate an actual treatment plan. No one here is foolish enough to say that antidepressants cure depression any more than an aspirin cures a headache; it is merely a stopgap solution, meant to ease the symptoms.

Brenna wrote: The current model is an entirely physiologically based one. Ie, there’s something wrong with the body/and brain which causes the physical and psychological symptoms of mood disorders.

Brenna wrote: We also never teach people to look past the symptoms to find the underlying issue, and fix it. If you had a broken leg you wouldn’t just take pain killers to manage the symptom of pain, you’d get your damn leg fixed! Depression is no different.

Not according to any psychologist, psychiatrist, or therapist I've ever met. They all seem to think that there are physiological causes and mental/emotional causes. Many people have a mixture of both, and neither of them can be treated the same way. This is why every mental health practitioner or patient I've ever spoken with has mentioned a two-stage approach to attempt to regulate the physiological and cope with the mental/emotional as the only approach that actually works.

Brenna wrote: Thinking happy thoughts will NOT help you. BUT (and this is where the unhelpful but well meaning people always get it wrong) it is the watered down version of one solution.

Just wanted to emphasize the single most important part of that entire paragraph. It is just one solution, out of many. No two people are exactly alike, so no two instances of mental illness are exactly alike, so no two treatment plans are exactly alike. What worked for you may not work for others. What worked for me in the past may not work for me now. This single statement supports my argument better than anything I've personally said, because there is no "right way" to handle mental illness. However, there are a lot of wrong ones.

Brenna wrote: We do not teach people about the long term physical effects of the way our minds work. Nor do we teach people emotional and self management.

That's because the vast majority of the human race has no idea exactly how our minds work. A far greater, but still relatively puny, portion of humanity has any true concept of emotional self-management. Until we understand everything about the human mind, from every angle, we're not going to be able to teach what works--we're only going to be able to teach what works for us.

Brenna wrote: What we do teach people is that they have a condition that’s “happened” to them which makes them broken.

In what way is this accurate? The alternative is that the condition is part of us, which still carries the connotation of brokenness and failure that's so devastating to people who need to seek assistance in these matters.

Brenna wrote: And in the process we victimize them and take away their ability to have control over the illness.

Excuse you? I have taken control of this illness by stepping up and doing my best to get the help that I feel I need--medically, emotionally, spiritually--and I have personally never been more empowered. I stood up, among family who pretends mental illness doesn't exist (and has led to a string of undiagnosed suffering in our family that's evident to whomever meets them), in a community that says mental illness is the ultimate failure, worthy of the greatest shame, and from a faith that says mental illness is a sign of an utter lack of faith (at best, rendering me unfit to concelebrate with them), or a demoniac (at worst.) I have sought help with no income and no insurance in an area with almost no resources, and I have publicly discussed my journey so that I could help others do the same. I have done a lot of really difficult things in my life, but this has required the most strength of all.

I am not a victim.

Brenna wrote: ...Im just so tired of seeing brilliant people debilitated...

Me, too. That's why I spoke out. That's why I started this thread. That's why we're having this discussion, where I'm actively rewriting every third word so as not to display the absolute fury with which I'm typing.

While I appreciate your input (especially in regard to your apparent expertise in this field), and acknowledge that the way you describe coping with these issues is one part of a multiple-point solution, I cannot help but state that the extremity of your opinion, as well as the way it was worded, is actively harmful to the undiagnosed seeking aid. This is exactly the kind of attitude that prompted me to start this thread, and spill all this virtual ink in the first place, because I used to manage my illness that way, too, and it nearly killed me. Of the other four people I know who both hold your exact opinion (down to the tone of voice) and suffer from mental illness, two of them are socially crippled by their interactions with others, one shot himself in the mouth with his hunting rifle, and one is a single bad day away from losing his life in a police shootout. Their opinion that they can master their illness has not done anything to help them master their illness. Not by itself. Because the problem with mental illness is that it's mental, and that affects your ability to deal with things as they are.

Antidepressants and therapy and exercise and meditation--those are great stopgap solutions to quiet the mind long enough to actually gain the clarity to move forward, but without that clarity, there is zero progress. In the absence of people willing to help them get that clarity (either through a prescription, or through a coaching program, or in the best possible scenario, both), and in the presence of people who demand that clarity is necessary to shed this horrible, shameful disease, people are going to get hurt. Badly. They're going to lose hope and they're going to lose faith in themselves, exacerbating existing symptoms and putting them ever-farther from that all-important clarity. Many of them will even lose their lives. That's not something I'm willing to gamble with simply because it worked for me in the past.

I hope I have been able to clarify my position to the satisfaction of the readers here.

My perspective on mental health issues: I am a neuroscience grad student. I have some anxiety issues, that were treated for a bit with drugs, some therapy, and a lot of personal meditation work. My brother has bipolar, and both parents have anxiety and depression issues.

To me the question of whether the problem of an illness like depression or anxiety is mental or chemical imbalance is meaningless. Our brains are electro-biochemical organs. Any mental process is by our understanding a chemical process. There is no meaningful difference between saying something is caused by chemical imbalance, faulty 'wiring', or poor thinking habits, they are the same thing.

It seems strange to me that people are being told there is something wrong with them when they are not feeling well.

Sure, sometimes the causes are psychiatric/physiological, and in that case, their brain isn't functioning as it should...

But there's also no better way to make people feel and act like shit than to tell them they are such. So why tell people there is something wrong with them (that they are mentally ill), when in fact, in most cases, it is something in their lives that has gone wrong.

there is in my opinion a huge difference between believing there is something wrong with yourself as opposed to something wrong with a part of your life. It seems obvious to me someone who believes there is something wrong with their mind will not trust themselves, will not look forward to anything, and will not like themselves. While when the "wrong" is with a part of their life, and not with themselves, what they're saying is that they're normal. That they're having a normal reaction to something that's hurting them. And therefore that there is a solution and that, being healthy, they can work it out.

I really see no need for the zombie army hooked on psycho-pharmaceuticals the mental health industry has created for our world.

I wonder what it was like before we started "treating" "strange"(mentally ill) people. Did they even have such a concept before? Were they simply outcasts? When did we start "doing something" about it? (my bet would be that it started with people believing in the "wrong" religion)
Because the only difference I see between what we have today and what we had not so long ago (you know when we'd institutionalize -- read: put in prisons worse than actual prisons-- "strange" people who hadn't committed any crimes), is that it's no longer just about "saving" average joe from the deviant, but also doing that while limiting expenses and maximizing profit. Don't pay for the mad house, sell it to them in pill form. And don't forget to create a need for your product (preferably highly addictive too) if you're out to make billions.

Edit: just saw this:

There is no meaningful difference between saying something is caused by chemical imbalance, faulty 'wiring', or poor thinking habits, they are the same thing.

As psychology is known to have an effect on physiology, would you say a chemical imbalance in the brain would be created directly as a result of the brain not being "designed" to handle that information? (at a physical level, i guess, neural equivalent to short circuits, running 64 bit on 32, buffer overrun and the likes?))

ren wrote: It seems obvious to me someone who believes there is something wrong with their mind will not trust themselves, will not look forward to anything, and will not like themselves.

Please, do explain to me the stupidly large number of people who feel this way:

• before they ever believe there's something wrong with their mind
• for no discernable reason whatsoever

Ren, you can't tell me it's a normal reaction to become so afraid of simply going outside by myself that I won't even go out to eat and will skip meals because of it. Especially when the "reason" is because I was ridiculed by the other kids when I was young.

It is understanding for me to hear a loud noise and react with a 'combat ready' state of mind. I was deployed to Iraq. But for other people with PTSD, it is a normal brain process that causes abnormal reactions.

Anxiety Disorder is a normal brain process that causes abnormal reactions. I'm just more prone to anxiety than many other people. Everyone is anxious when it comes to a predator that crosses their path. I'm anxious about going to places on my own so badly that I become so afraid that I simply don't go. This doesn't make me broken, this just makes me have to work at being calm more than a 'normal' person does.

It's one thing to be depressed when your dog gets abducted by aliens. Everyone would be. But it's not normal to get so depressed for no reason, that the only way to survive is to shut down all emotion.

When I was deployed last, I hit a panic attack and curled up in a corner of the workcenter. Why? Only thing I could figure is there were too many people in the room and it was too loud for me on top of having nothing to focus on because I had already handed everything over to my replacement. I was told to go back to my CLU and couldn't.

My final straw, the one when I finally came back to myself that I decided to go to Mental Health on was I was at a Squadron Burger Burn. Long story short, I was called to the Grog Bowl. It's a (clean) toilet that they fill with nasty-tasting, mostly liquid, usually alcoholic stuff. You go to the Bowl, fill a glass, drink it, then hold it over your head upside-down to prove you drank every last drop. I got about two minutes warning that I was being called to the Bowl. It didn't take me more than a minute to tell my old supervisor that I was going home. And I bolted. That supervisor asked a friend to text me to make sure I was ok. She said she had never seen such terror on someone's face. I drove home rapping my hand on the gear shift, trying to expel this energy I had. By breathing was shallow and quick, and my heart was hammering. I was aware of EVERYTHING going on around me. And it took me THREE HOURS of hard-core focus in a video game for me to calm down to a more normal level.

Where does drinking out of a Grog Bowl that was lemon-aid and Tabasco, cause a full-blown fight or flight response where I felt I had no choice BUT to run. It's a normal, natural brain function reacting in an extreme way.

As far as depression, that's something I was diagnosed with when I was in High School. I was listed as "Mild", and most days I'll tell you I don't have it. And some days you'll never see me because I'm too withdrawn to come online. I took medication for it for several months, started forgetting about it, and stopped taking it. (I've never been medicated for ADHD or anxiety.) I don't have anything in my life to be so upset over that I shut down. I have a job that if I get kicked out at the end of the year, they'll pay me a bit of money for breaking contract. I have a little more debt than I'd like but we can cover it just fine. I don't have very many friends, but the ones I DO have are really true friends. And yet, there are times when I'm so down-in-the-dumps that I shut off all emotion.

I don't trust my brain, it betrays me. I have to control it myself where most people don't. Anxiety is an issue I had that I thought was 'normal'. I thought I was more of a coward than everybody else. I begged people to come with me to go somewhere. Now that I know how it is my brain works, I know how I can either work with it, or fight it, depending on the situation.

ren wrote: I wonder what it was like before we started "treating" "strange"(mentally ill) people.

We looked for the witches that had cast spells on them. We blamed them for selling themselves to the devil. Typically they were murdered in some way that was socially acceptable. Or for those who had less outgoing issues, they would simply suffer in the dark.

steamboat28 wrote:

ren wrote: It seems obvious to me someone who believes there is something wrong with their mind will not trust themselves, will not look forward to anything, and will not like themselves.

Please, do explain to me the stupidly large number of people who feel this way:

• before they ever believe there's something wrong with their mind
• for no discernable reason whatsoever

Well, there are many reasons obviously. Some people would be depressed their dog gets abducted by aliens when others rejoice at the thought that dog will be marking its territory on the other side of the galaxy... I'm not really after the cause of why people feel unhappy, because that's quite complicated, besides, unhappiness is normal.

What I am arguing though is that people who are unhappy will not feel better about themselves if they start believing (on their own or with some "help") that there is something wrong with them. This is the principle behind autosuggestion, which is the principle behind hypnosis. It's also the reason why corporations spend huge amounts of money on short TV ads and such.

the "environment" makes you what you are. It makes you happy, and unhappy. I think the trick is to control how the environment affects you (your essence/mind) before it convinces you that your state of mind is down to your mind and not the "environment". If it ever reaches that point where your mind is convinced it is responsible for its ill health, then it seems obvious it would be down to the environment (a friend or therapist, etc) to convince you again that it is not your fault, but your environment's fault.

Ren, you can't tell me it's a normal reaction to become so afraid of simply going outside by myself that I won't even go out to eat and will skip meals because of it. Especially when the "reason" is because I was ridiculed by the other kids when I was young.

it seems perfectly normal to me. if "outside" has hurt you in the past, you will by "design" avoid this "outside". A natural reaction to that which harms you is: fear. there are people out there who don't work this way. They have no concept of fear or danger. They, have an actual mental (psychiatric/neurological) illness. Which can be traced back to crappy DNA, or an accident, maybe even drug abuse... But wouldn't you say people like this are quite rare?

I'm not saying there's a single factor to a mental illness... or that there is a common solution to all mental illnesses. However don't you agree that to put an end to a problem, you must seek and destroy the causes/factors of that problem? Is telling people they're ill really helpful? If you are afraid of going out after being bullied as a child, is the problem:
- your mind being afraid of being bullied, or
- being bullied ?
Do you really think that believing your mind has a problem is more helpful to you?

Have you ever considered that your brain cannot possibly betray you because you are your brain? And that it is the world that fools you into acting a certain way?

ren wrote: I'm not really after the cause of why people feel unhappy, because that's quite complicated, besides, unhappiness is normal.

Okay, ren, but what we're trying to explain is that "unhappy" and "depression" are not the same thing.

steamboat28 wrote: Hell, this could work on other ailments, too. I mean, if the chemical model is correct (which I know you don't believe is the case), and every process in the body is governed by electrical or chemical signals (which is why the medical industry pushes pills, in theory), then there's no reason a sufficiently disciplined person can't heal anything wrong with their own body by consciously manipulating those signals. That's amazing news, actually. It means I can stop getting headaches and repair my knees through the power of meditation and willpower. It means that my cousin can learn to direct his nervous system to repair the damage done to his spine and get rid of that wheelchair (though his "handicapped sticker" tattoo would look odd, then.) Maybe, given a proper counselor and some time to clear her head, my aunt could've dispensed with all the doctors and treatments and pain medications, and just thought herself out of that non-Hodgkins lymphoma wracking her body slowly until she died gasping in pain. My mother will be thrilled to hear it.

Thats not what I meant and you know it. I dont appreciate having my words twisted. While there is increasing research to show the impact of the chemical model, we do know that its application is limited. However, there are those who believe that other more serious medical conditions can be healed through thought, prayer and meditation. I am not one of them. Which you well know.

steamboat28 wrote: I don't recall anyone here saying they did. I also don't recall anyone saying that they are the only treatment option. They are the most efficient way extant to bring the body's chemistry back in line with "normality" long enough to formulate an actual treatment plan. No one here is foolish enough to say that antidepressants cure depression any more than an aspirin cures a headache; it is merely a stopgap solution, meant to ease the symptoms.

I didnt say anyone did. I was expressing my opinion on it. An opinion which we share. One which sadly, in my experience is not as common as you think. Not everyone is as diligent as you in educating themselves.

steamboat28 wrote: Not according to any psychologist, psychiatrist, or therapist I've ever met.

I know many. And they are succesful. Particularly within the prison system. A programme which I find fascinating. I also did not say that it was only one cause or another. Only that it is common for there to be an underlying issue that is not addressed in a single facet treatment.

steamboat28 wrote: because there is no "right way" to handle mental illness. However, there are a lot of wrong ones.

According to your opinion and experience. Just like the rest of us.

steamboat28 wrote: Excuse you? I have taken control of this illness by stepping up and doing my best to get the help that I feel I need--medically, emotionally, spiritually--and I have personally never been more empowered. I stood up, among family who pretends mental illness doesn't exist (and has led to a string of undiagnosed suffering in our family that's evident to whomever meets them), in a community that says mental illness is the ultimate failure, worthy of the greatest shame, and from a faith that says mental illness is a sign of an utter lack of faith (at best, rendering me unfit to concelebrate with them), or a demoniac (at worst.) I have sought help with no income and no insurance in an area with almost no resources, and I have publicly discussed my journey so that I could help others do the same. I have done a lot of really difficult things in my life, but this has required the most strength of all.

I am not a victim.

I never said you were. If you read my entire post, I never once refered to you. It was a commentary on the way in which I have seen mental health dealt with both in my personal experience of the issues, in my studies and my work. You may not be a victim, but you are awfully quick to respond to any differing opinion as a personal attack. I am not the members of your family, nor have I said I believe that mental illness does not exist. But i do prefer not to use the terminology.

steamboat28 wrote: While I appreciate your input (especially in regard to your apparent expertise in this field), and acknowledge that the way you describe coping with these issues is one part of a multiple-point solution, I cannot help but state that the extremity of your opinion, as well as the way it was worded, is actively harmful to the undiagnosed seeking aid. This is exactly the kind of attitude that prompted me to start this thread, and spill all this virtual ink in the first place, because I used to manage my illness that way, too, and it nearly killed me. Of the other four people I know who both hold your exact opinion (down to the tone of voice) and suffer from mental illness, two of them are socially crippled by their interactions with others, one shot himself in the mouth with his hunting rifle, and one is a single bad day away from losing his life in a police shootout. Their opinion that they can master their illness has not done anything to help them master their illness. Not by itself. Because the problem with mental illness is that it's mental, and that affects your ability to deal with things as they are.

Antidepressants and therapy and exercise and meditation--those are great stopgap solutions to quiet the mind long enough to actually gain the clarity to move forward, but without that clarity, there is zero progress. In the absence of people willing to help them get that clarity (either through a prescription, or through a coaching program, or in the best possible scenario, both), and in the presence of people who demand that clarity is necessary to shed this horrible, shameful disease, people are going to get hurt. Badly. They're going to lose hope and they're going to lose faith in themselves, exacerbating existing symptoms and putting them ever-farther from that all-important clarity. Many of them will even lose their lives. That's not something I'm willing to gamble with simply because it worked for me in the past.

I hope I have been able to clarify my position to the satisfaction of the readers here.

Perhaps I should clarify my "extremist" opinion a little further as I believe that you have A- misunderstood me, and B- using what you think Ive said to fuel what is obviously a passionate subject for you.

There is a vast difference between the depression and anxiety that is commonly experienced, (1 in 6 people will experience it in their life times) and severe clinical conditions that require constant monitoring, medicating and psychiatric therapy. People who have that level of psychiatric disturbance are not suffering from depression. They have serious disorders that are most often not curable or treatable but only manageable. It is not the same as depression or anxiety, which makes up almost 70% of mental health issues.

At no point in my post did I say not to take medication or that I don’t agree with the use of drugs to alleviate the symptoms of depression. Perhaps I was not clear when I said “antidepressants do not cure depression”. They do not. But I said - “They are meant to alleviate the worst of the symptoms and render the person “functional”.

Which I believe was exactly your point too. So we share the same opinion here as well.

The issue that I do have with drug therapy is that over the last 10 year the number of people who are being treated with drugs alone has risen significantly. The average of people who seek additional treatment in the form of therapy or alternatives has dropped from 31.5% to 19%. Which is a problem because drug therapy alone is only shown to be an effective treatment in less than a third of all cases. In addition to that, there is also the concerning side effect of a number of prominent anti depressants to increase the suicide risk if the patient is on them for an extended period of time. Which is of course a little counterproductive.

I believe in a multi faceted approach to any mental health issue as it is a multi faceted problem.

But I DO believe that recovery starts with a willingness to not be a bystander. Taking responsibility for getting treatment is not the same as taking the blame for the disorder. Empowerment by being actively involved in the treatment is not the same as DIY. Refusing to be defined by a disorder is different to saying “it’s just in my head”.

If you looked at what I’m saying instead of what you think I’m saying, you would see that we are much of a mind on a lot of it.

And I would remind you that everything that I have said, and you have said is subjective and based on our own experiences. You forget, I was where you are. I was where your friends were. I have been in that horrific place too. Im not someone who has never experienced it passing judgement. I am explaining my position based on my own recovery. While you say that what I am saying is “wrong” and actively harmful, I say it because it is the only thing that freed me from my own mental health challenges, and SAVED MY LIFE. And I say it because it has actively helped the many people that I have shared it with since.

The fact that it has not worked for you, doesn’t render my experience invalid.





Edit: Just stumbled across this. He says it far more eloquently than I could.

Major depression is a little like the Hydra. You can try pharmaceutically (or even apply electroconvulsive therapy in cases unresponsive to medications) to kill off its symptoms, but they tend to return. Can major depression be defeated? Not without getting to the heart of the Hydra. Depression's roots are, from my own clinical observations, more commonly basically psychological than biochemical--though one clearly affects the other. Often at the very heart of depression is repressed hatred, anger, rage, resentment. Abandonment. Betrayal. Discouragement. Unresolved grief. Meaninglessness. Nihilism. Without aggressively attacking this psychological, spiritual and emotional core or heart of depression, it cannot be permanently dispatched. Only temporarily suppressed. Which is why pharmaceutical treatment of major depression by itself, while invaluable, is no substitute for real psychotherapy combined with psychopharmacology. Such an ongoing two-pronged attack on the Hydra of depression prevents or mitigates major setbacks, and can keep the dreaded Hydra in check. Such treatment can empower the patient to nip such dips in the bud, in effect defeating the Hydra.

- Dr. Stephen Diamond
clinical and forensic psychologist

ren wrote: it seems perfectly normal to me. if "outside" has hurt you in the past, you will by "design" avoid this "outside". A natural reaction to that which harms you is: fear. there are people out there who don't work this way. They have no concept of fear or danger. They, have an actual mental (psychiatric/neurological) illness. Which can be traced back to crappy DNA, or an accident, maybe even drug abuse... But wouldn't you say people like this are quite rare?

I'm not denying that that cause and effect is natural. What I'm trying to get across is that it's an extreme and immediate reaction. I don't ever remember thinking "Outside is scary because I'll get teased." All I had was "outside=scary". And it was so scary I didn't go outside without support. I have an OVERreaction with fear. Those that have NO fear are the complete oppose of the scale and have the same considerations I do. They have to second-guess what their brain is saying. "My brain said it's ok to stick my hand in this meet processor...is it really safe?" I have no idea how rare either end of the scale is. Like I said when this started, all I have to offer are my experiences

ren wrote: I'm not saying there's a single factor to a mental illness... or that there is a common solution to all mental illnesses. However don't you agree that to put an end to a problem, you must seek and destroy the causes/factors of that problem? Is telling people they're ill really helpful? If you are afraid of going out after being bullied as a child, is the problem:
- your mind being afraid of being bullied, or
- being bullied ?
Do you really think that believing your mind has a problem is more helpful to you?

To fix something, you must understand that A) it needs fixing and How it needed fixing. Then there's the help and support and all that fun stuff too. So I had to understand that I was mentally unfit, to seek the help I needed. I hadn't the foggiest idea that I was afraid of going outside because I thought I would be bullied. All I knew was I (felt I) could not go anywhere without someone with me. It took three months of therapy to understand that that was a big part of the core problem. I had to realize and analyze my fears. I had to force myself to do the things that I fear to understand why I fear. Then I had to realize that my fear was (although very real) baseless. My mind created a short-circuit from "Outside" to "Fear response". I do not get bullied. I haven't been for ...shoot 12 years now? I don't hang out with people who bully. We tease, but we do it in good spirits. This is what I had to learn. BUT understanding a thing is only the START to fixing a thing. There is a lot of work and will that goes into it. I fight with my brain almost daily. Because what I understand is different than my brain's experience.

So it use to go like this:
Me: Lets go outside!
Brain: FEAR!
Me: Ok! *hides inside instead*

So now the way I work is:
Me: Lets go outside!
Brain: FEAR!
Me: No..no...there isn't a reason to be afraid.
Brain: Nope, I'm pretty sure there is!
Me: Why?
Brain: uh....because I said so?
Me: *breathe* I'm going outside anyways
Brain: BE AFRAID!
Me: *walk outside even with the fear*

Hopefully one day, I can go somewhere without the fight.

I thought I was broken. I thought I couldn't be fixed. My doctor showed me otherwise. I didn't have shattered pieces, I had a puzzle that just needed a little help to put it back together again. But some people need more help than I did and do. Medication isn't a fix-all, but it can help in some extreme situations (coupled with therapy). I saw someone very close to me go through therapy for 20 years. I don't remember her taking medications. But another family member DID take medication and I can't tell you how much of a difference it made.

ren wrote: Have you ever considered that your brain cannot possibly betray you because you are your brain?

But I'm not my brain, just like I'm not my body. Sure, my brain may be my personal CPU, but I don't think it's me. It's a PART of me, but it is not all of me. And I say this because it's my brain that's hot-wired to react to situations in a specific way and *I* have to talk it down. But here we're kind of heading into a more spiritual theories

ren wrote: And that it is the world that fools you into acting a certain way?

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not entirely a product of my environment. My environment influences me, sure. But if I was entirely a product of my environment I'd be drunk under the table every night (at least that's what it sounds like most of my shop does)

As far as I understand anxiety at least, it is both a natural reaction to events coupled with an....unnormal...brain. My brain is just quicker to jump on that "Flight or Flight" response. This doesn't mean I'm broken, it just means I have to work a little harder with myself to do the things I want to do than most 'normal' people do. When something isn't 'normal', it's classified as an 'illness'. And like many illnesses, the mental ones need help to fix it. Sure, you can get by with the flu, but isn't it nice when you have someone bringing you your soup until you get better? And telling you "everything will be ok"? I've got the 'flu'. But there are some 'cancers' out there too.

steamboat28 wrote:

Brenna wrote: If depression was caused by a chemical imbalance that was uncontrollable, why does nutritional therapy, exercise, cognitive behavioral therapy, neuro- linguistic programming, meditation, acupuncture, yoga and personal spiritual practices show consistently both in studies and through antidotal evidence to be effective in the management and cure of depression? And why, during clinical studies, would placebos be almost as effective as drugs?

This raises a pretty good point, actually. I mean, if we can control our minds (through superior levels of enlightenment), then we can control the chemical processes of said brain (provided that is the root cause of these illnesses, as many claim), and rid ourselves of them for good. Then, the only people who'll be depressed, or bipolar, or schizophrenic will be those who are too ignorant to understand the process.

I thought that it might be useful to clarify what im talking about in terms of "controlling" the chemical imbalance. Its not about sitting around "willing" things to change.

Im sure that everyone has heard of the "Take 10 deep breaths" thing when they are panicked or angry. The way that this works is that essentially the change in the breathing pattern (Low in the belly and slowed) causes the body to slow the production of adrenalin and cortisol, the two most prominant hormones involved in the fight or flight reaction, and imbalance of which is often present in people who suffer anxiety or prolonged stress.

This is obviously a very simplistic example and one that is not relevant specifically to the "treatment" of depression. But as research is showing, many of the neurotransmiters and hormones that play a part in creating depression and anxiety, can be affected by our actions and to some extent our thoughts, as well as effective drug or suppliment therapy. Though admittedly, FAR too many people simplify it into the "think happy thoughts and you'll fly" nonsense. Its less about controlling you mind, and more about influencing whats going on in your body.