Atheist Jedi

Wescli Wardest wrote: @ Akkarin…

I have always consider the term being in relationship to “god” as being short sited and one created by our limited understanding of the universe.

But that's the thing isn't it, for most people that is not the case at all, it is quite literally what they mean

The problem with the Christian God is that the Christian God tries to be both Logos and Divine Authority.

The people of the East (and Western Middle Stoicism) made Reason/Logos one God, and had the Divine Authority as something else.

People reject the current Logos when we have a new understanding. It's natural, and right. We should move forward when we make new discoveries.

But, the God of the West tries to come back and bite us by saying: "I am the Divine Ruler".

We know that his current state is in the past... we've moved past it.

We still accept his Divine Love (in the form of Jesus's teachings, which most people agree have merit)... but not as the Divine Authority over Logos.

The problem with Christianity is that it tries to be both Confucianism and Taoism at the same time. It's impossible. Christians reconcile this in different ways. Atheists reject it, most of the time.

I get that for the most part Atheist do not accept the Christian understanding/interpretation of “god”.

But what I don’t understand is that since we are all Jedi, why hold on to the Atheist label?

I’m not sure why many people hold on to their labels after coming to Jediism anyways. IE, Christian Jedi, Muslim Jedi, Atheist Jedi… I just see us as Jedi. Our belief in the Force is unique and our pursuit to understand the universe around us is unique in the monotheistic religions.

By being Jedi, I would think that is sign enough to standard Monotheist that we do not accept their dogma or interpretation of what is.

I think the thing that causes me the most uncertainty about the title Atheist Jedi is the denouncing of a higher power, which the Force could (and is by many) interpreted that way.

That is the part I’m having a hard time wrapping my brain around.

Weird example alert…
To me, it seems like it would be claiming that we are Atheist Monotheists. Which would be an oxymoron would it not?

So much to say...

I got your PM Wescli, you are fine...

You are not being a hard ass, only conversing...

Ren wrote: note: this shouldn't be in "faiths", but "philosophy" (maybe "metaphysics")

But, then this is my point, Yes?

Atheism is a belief...

As are opinions...

It is 'faith' that our opinions are the correct ones... If for no one else but ourselves...

Connor wrote: People will always classify others...

And I dont care about that...lol...

People of China practiced both Confucianism and Taoism. They knew there was a purpose to both, and they found their own personal balance within it.

Classifications have purpose.

Sure, and I do it too...

Everyone does, it helps to understand something... It is the first step, as it is recognized and compared to others of the same classification...

My "I dont care" was more, "I dont care [if Im classified in anyway]...

Wescli wrote: We have a saying in the Army… there are no Atheist in fox holes.

Well, someone exclaiming, "Oh God, why me?" doesnt really understand what they are saying, the underlying meaning of the words... Instead, they are using a exclamition to "flap their wings" because they just want out of the situation...

I would probably not seek Gods help, but scream a few obscenities, and charge at the right moment... Cnat live forever... lol....

But, I am not military, and not 100% sure, lol... If I am in tha position, I will let you know...

My point, to you Wes, is that saying "Jesus Christ" in disgust, fear, or contempt at/in a situation does not prove any more faith than many of the Sunday Christians show the other 6 days....

Wescli also wrote: What I’m getting from a lot of this is that many people are using the term Atheist to reject the Christian idea of God. But not the Force.

Yes... Maybe...

I use it to reject all controlling entities...

To me, the Force is like a fabric... It is everything....

I dont worship it... I am in amazement of it, that is for sure... Awe, yes... Star struck, yes... Bewilderment of it, yep...

But, I am in awe of YOU, Wes... And Ren, and this computer, and my phone, and the hummingbirds, and the straw that I am drinking with, and coffee (uuuhhh, coffee) and , and , and , and, .....

Wescli further wrote: So, does the Force reject the idea of the Christian God? Or is it just another understanding of the same? Or is it unique in our understanding of its design?

This is a trick question, and logically, I will have to say, that because the first part is a contradiction, "Does the Force", cause the Force does nothing, (lol, yet everything as we are all it, lol... Who is dizzy?), it is we who decide to/not to reject the idea of God...

So NO... The Force for me cannot reject anything...

(Elizabeth, Know whats next?)

Cause life is improv, and the first rule of improv is "Say Yes to what is"...

Who else said that? (psst. Campbell)...

Wescli Wardest wrote:
I’m not sure why many people hold on to their labels after coming to Jediism anyways. IE, Christian Jedi, Muslim Jedi, Atheist Jedi… I just see us as Jedi. Our belief in the Force is unique and our pursuit to understand the universe around us is unique in the monotheistic religions.

Becasue they like it... The identity it gives them...

I said I COULD be seen that way...

By being Jedi, I would think that is sign enough to standard Monotheist that we do not accept their dogma or interpretation of what is.

I think the thing that causes me the most uncertainty about the title Atheist Jedi is the denouncing of a higher power, which the Force could (and is by many) interpreted that way.

That is the part I’m having a hard time wrapping my brain around.

Why?

Simply put, I dont view it that way...

You can, so, therefore this is causing you a brain pain... lol...

Weird example alert…
To me, it seems like it would be claiming that we are Atheist Monotheists. Which would be an oxymoron would it not?

Im not claiming WE are anything....

Are you trying to lump us together?

:lol:....

@ Jestor...

I guess that I am lumping Atheist into the group Atheist…
Hahhahaha

Jediism is still in its infancy and there are still many things we do, say and believe that can not always be easily reconciled via logical deduction.

Example of thought process…
While trying to reconcile the Atheist Monotheist idea I decided that an Atheist polytheist, as confusing as this may become, is viable. As in a Hellenistic religion. If, the Force is what gave the “gods” their power/authority and what they wielded. Then believing in the Force but not the Gods themselves would be viable.

Wescli Wardest wrote: @ Jestor...

I guess that I am lumping Atheist into the group Atheist…
Hahhahaha

Jediism is still in its infancy and there are still many things we do, say and believe that can not always be easily reconciled via logical deduction.

Right...

I have reached this point by using words as I understand them, not necessarily the right way, :lol:, but, as I understand them, and as we converse, my definitions change a bit, and we come to a happy medium...

Example of thought process…
While trying to reconcile the Atheist Monotheist idea I decided that an Atheist polytheist, as confusing as this may become, is viable. As in a Hellenistic religion. If, the Force is what gave the “gods” their power/authority and what they wielded. Then believing in the Force but not the Gods themselves would be viable.

The Force didnt give those gods their power....

Humans assigned names of gods to aspects of the force...

Full Definition of BELIEF

1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

It truly does not matter what religion you talk about, Humans need to have something to help them keep going. When we have a BELIEF to give us inner strength, it helps us. Atheists have their belief, Christians their belief. Every religion has their own belief and person on this earth believes something different. I believe that a Jedi is open to many different beliefs and cultures so whether or not they are Atheist should not matter. Instead of Atheist Jedi, or Christian Jedi, Jewish Jedi, why not just be Jedi? If an individual has a belief that gives them their inner strength to carry on , or a "Belief" then I accept the fact that they believe that and commend them for having something to help support them in times of need, whatever that may be. Personally, I don't suscribe to labels, I could care less what religion you are, whether or not you are black, white, Japanese, Hispanic. To me, what is important is what is in a persons heart. I think that is the most important thing about being a Jedi, is to not look on a person because of their belief, or how they are, but to accept them for who they are and to respect the fact that they believe that way, even though you may not believe that way or agree with it. and accept them not for what they believe, but what you see in their heart.


SilverWolf

@ Jestor...

Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity. It means to show honour or to honour. I think the reason perceives worship to be more then that is because of the Christians for Western society. In the Bible it says to worship with song and dance. So that is how many of the services have evolved.

So I do believe that we all, from the newest member to each Council member “worships” the Force.

That was just a thought (Atheist Polytheist) trying to reconcile different aspects I have seen over the last few years here.

I still don’t think I understand the idea of being an Atheist Jedi… and I’m not sure I agree with the idea either. Not saying its wrong! But from my understanding it still doesn’t jive.

Definitely worth spending more time trying to understand.

@ SilverWolf...

This is mostly for my own benefit and understanding. I agree that belief is paramount to the individual’s wellbeing, both physical and spiritual. I am merely trying to reconcile common use definitions with their use here.

Wescli Wardest wrote: @ Jestor...

Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity. It means to show honour or to honour. I think the reason perceives worship to be more then that is because of the Christians for Western society. In the Bible it says to worship with song and dance. So that is how many of the services have evolved.

So I do believe that we all, from the newest member to each Council member “worships” the Force.

That was just a thought (Atheist Polytheist) trying to reconcile different aspects I have seen over the last few years here.

I still don’t think I understand the idea of being an Atheist Jedi… and I’m not sure I agree with the idea either. Not saying its wrong! But from my understanding it still doesn’t jive.

Definitely worth spending more time trying to understand.

I will talk with you till you tire of me...

lol...

I have trouble with the word 'worship', I dont 'worship'...

I dont really acknowledge the Force, except for the conversations like this... I do pause to observe things, but, ooo, yea, 'worship' (as an ex-catholic) I got issues with that words definition.... Guess I need to go look it up in the dictionary, lol...

I am busy being in the moment, and BEING....

If that makes sense...

Okay, what about the example that someone worships money? They don't actually pray to it or sing songs to it... unless they're just a little wierd! hahahhahha

But there are people that worship money are there not?

Sure...

Oh,you didnt say "attachment" did you...

:lol:....

That could very well be the key to this… attachment! I had not considered that. Not just people being attached to labels, but theist being attached to their deities. Rather than marveling at the wonder of it all and existing to coincide with the “grand design” (so to say) they feel a need for a personal relationship with that witch is infinite and beyond their understanding. So they humanize it. :huh:

The humanized representation of the deity figure is the rejection of Atheist (Atheist Jedi)?
Added Atheist Jedi for clarification.

Wescli Wardest wrote: That could very well be the key to this… attachment! I had not considered that. Not just people being attached to labels, but theist being attached to their deities. Rather than marveling at the wonder of it all and existing to coincide with the “grand design” (so to say) they feel a need for a personal relationship with that witch is infinite and beyond their understanding. So they humanize it. :huh:

The humanized representation of the deity figure is the rejection of Atheist?

Yes....

I think it is...

MY OPINION is that to understand it, they attach a personality to it...

My car is is called Betsy (no, its a car not a girl)

Sharks are vicious (no sharks eat meat and take bites to taste things, [are they car eaters because they have found license plates in sharks])

Mice?spiders/ants are smart... No, they are persistent... Ok, they do have some intelligence, but, its but it is not like they 'know' when there is food availabel, they "stumble upon it" becasue they are constantly searching and foraging...

We humans like our personalities applied to things...

Gods are no different...

Jestor,

I talked in my post about belief, not worship. It seems like everyone is basing this on religion for a thing or a person. There is no concrete evidence that god exists, but he does because we "believe" in him, on your comments of sharks, it wasn't until the movie JAWS that people started to "believe" and fear what they did not understand which was Sharks. After JAWS people truly "believed" that all sharks are maneaters and go out of their way to attack humans, we now know this not to be entirely true, they attack because they smell blood in the water and think it is food, they attack because the splashing around makes vibrations in the water that attract them, and they attack surfers because their eyesight isn't the best and surfers look like seals. You call your car Betsy because you believe it to be a Betsy. Yes, we attach our belief to something we can understand, a man greater than ourselves, a Deity, and it then becomes real for us, but any religion or thought begins with a "belief". It is the attachment to something we can see or touch that makes us think it is real, and it reinforces that strength of belief. When it comes to religion, I am all kinds of messed up: 90% of my family was irish catholic, I went to a Baptist church growing up until my parents one day stopped taking me. I always "believed" in god and that church wasn't just a building but he was everywhere. I never was baptized until I lived in Louisana and was Baptized in a Pentacostal church. When my son Aiden was born, his mother and I wanted him blessed in the church but neither her belief ( she was raised Mormon) or mine would allow it because we were not married. My belief in what I believe in says this is wrong. This entire post is mostly about a belief, however we seem to be over-thinking it. Why is it so hard to just believe in something just because, and not because we need to "attach" it to anything, or have a reason behind it.

The 'worship' was directed toward Wescli....

I do not attach a personality toward things, and actually rant at my TV when people do that, lol...

My wife just shakes her head at me...:lol:...

They assigned personalities to sharks WAY back in the more primitive times too... Shark Gods, Bear Gods, Wolf Gods, Elephant Gods.... Or, Fire GOds, The Gods of Wind, the Tree Fairies, gremlins in your cars...

Prehistoric man (in my opinion) did it to better understand the world around him, to attach a value for others...

An "angry wolverine" would simply mean that they are prone to strike, and are protective, not necessarily that they are really pissed about something....

Wes and I were PMing and he said "I wonder how come no one else is joining in"... :lol:...

So, thank you...

Jestor wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote: That could very well be the key to this… attachment! I had not considered that. Not just people being attached to labels, but theist being attached to their deities. Rather than marveling at the wonder of it all and existing to coincide with the “grand design” (so to say) they feel a need for a personal relationship with that witch is infinite and beyond their understanding. So they humanize it. :huh:

The humanized representation of the deity figure is the rejection of Atheist?

Yes....

I think it is...

MY OPINION is that to understand it, they attach a personality to it...

My car is is called Betsy (no, its a car not a girl)

Sharks are vicious (no sharks eat meat and take bites to taste things, [are they car eaters because they have found license plates in sharks])

Mice?spiders/ants are smart... No, they are persistent... Ok, they do have some intelligence, but, its but it is not like they 'know' when there is food availabel, they "stumble upon it" becasue they are constantly searching and foraging...

We humans like our personalities applied to things...

Gods are no different...

Sorta reminds me of when I was taking art in high school.
The Teacher went up to the board and drew a smiley face and asked one of the kid's what it was. They replied "happy?" and he said "no you idiot (in a joking manner) it's a drawing, drawings can't have emotion" and then went on to talk about how humans like to give things thoughts and feelings, and how even drawing the simplest eyes and mouth on something can make humans feel more connected or attached to it.

Communication is important.

Connection is essential to communication.

A smile on a person usually, if not always( as I have dealt with the mentally ill where this isnt the case, but they communicate poorly) that the person is conveying happiness.

Its less a matter of attributing meaning to something here, then going off previous evidence of having it conveyed to you.

It was the logical answer, it was simply a trick question.

I am of the mind that religion itself was a way to communicate that which we could and couldnt understand at a given point in time in history.

Outdated software that was never updated.