Zen and apathy

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10 years 1 week ago #118122 by
Zen and apathy was created by
a thought occurred to me just now during my studies on zen: how closely related are zen and ...some form of benevolent apathy? caring about the 'good things' enough to want to see them pass, but not so much that that desire is too much?

i dumbed this down from watts' take on purpose to try to keep this understandable.

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10 years 1 week ago #118123 by
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I struggle to understand how apathy is beneficial to an individual...especially given the "good" of a certain thing.

I've yet to find a compelling argument for it's employment - in regards to the use towards things "good."

(good is of course subjective...but that aside)

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10 years 1 week ago #118124 by steamboat28
Replied by steamboat28 on topic Zen and apathy
I think it's less apathy, and more a wabi-sabi mindset--it isn't that we shouldn't care about the good things, it's that we should acknowledge that they are transient, and be willing to allow them to pass without clinging harmfully to them.
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10 years 1 week ago #118130 by
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Desolous wrote: a thought occurred to me just now during my studies on zen: how closely related are zen and ...some form of benevolent apathy? caring about the 'good things' enough to want to see them pass, but not so much that that desire is too much?

i dumbed this down from watts' take on purpose to try to keep this understandable.


Apathy? I thought Zen is about not becoming overly attached to things?

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10 years 1 week ago #118149 by
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steamboat28 wrote: I think it's less apathy, and more a wabi-sabi mindset--it isn't that we shouldn't care about the good things, it's that we should acknowledge that they are transient, and be willing to allow them to pass without clinging harmfully to them.


Yes. Apathy is having a lack of interest or concern. While I understand what you are trying to convey by your using that word that is a distinct difference between that and having a 'Zen' mindset.

A practitioner of Zen observes the events around them, lets them happen, and then lets that pass to be absorbed into the next set of events...

A Zen practitioner isn't someone who doesn't engage in the things around them -that is impossible and immoral- rather they would let what ever is going to happen, do their best in that circumstance and then whatever happens they move on when that moment passes. As Rickie said Zen is about not being attached to things in the sense that they don't let their mind become worrisomely troubled but rather acknowledge that what ever happens or will happen is just that and move on.

Eastern philosophy can be hard to translate into Western language because it is a way of life and a mindset rather than a simple word by word translation...

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10 years 1 week ago #118150 by Jestor
Replied by Jestor on topic Zen and apathy
I spoke with LTK of 'contentment', or 'acceptance' of what "IS"...

This is the same...

DO not get upset, things are temporary... "This too will pass..."

(I feel like Maynoth, lol)

This sounds to me like denial and self-deception. When something dreadful happens to me or
someone close to me - accident, illness, pain of some kind or death - I can pretend that it isn't bad, but the fact remains that it is bad, so why deny it?


You are not pretending anything. You are allowing it to be as it is, that's all. This "allowing to be" takes you beyond the mind with its resistance patterns that create the positive-negative
polarities. It is an essential aspect of forgiveness. Forgiveness of the present is even more
important than forgiveness of the past. If you forgive every moment - allow it to be as it is -
then there will be no accumulation of resentment that needs to be forgiven at some later time.

Remember that we are not talking about happiness here. For example, when a loved one
has just died, or you feel your own death approaching, you cannot be happy. It is impossible.
But you can be at peace. There may be sadness and tears, but provided that you have
relinquished resistance, underneath the sadness you will feel a deep serenity, a stillness, a
sacred presence. This is the emanation of Being, this is inner peace, the good that has no
opposite.


What if it is a situation that I can do something about? How can I allow it to be and change it at the same time?

Do what you have to do. In the meantime, accept what is. Since mind and resistance are
synonymous, acceptance immediately frees you from mind dominance and thus reconnects
you with Being. As a result, the usual ego motivations for "doing" - fear, greed, control,
defending or feeding the false sense of self - will cease to operate. An intelligence much
greater than the mind is now in charge, and so a different quality of consciousness will flow
into your doing.

"Accept whatever comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny, for what could
more aptly fit your needs?" This was written 2,000 years ago by Marcus Aurelius, one of those
exceedingly rare humans who possessed worldly power as well as wisdom.

It seems that most people need to experience a great deal of suffering before they will
relinquish resistance and accept - before they will forgive. As soon as they do, one of the
greatest miracles happens: the awakening of Being-consciousness through what appears as
evil, the transmutation of suffering into inner peace. The ultimate effect of all the evil and
suffering in the world is that it will force humans into realizing who they are beyond name
and form. Thus, what we perceive as evil from our limited perspective is actually part of the
higher good that has no opposite. This, however, does not become true for you except
through forgiveness. Until that happens, evil has not been redeemed and therefore remains
evil.

Through forgiveness, which essentially means recognizing the insubstantiality of the past
and allowing the present moment to be as it is, the miracle of transformation happens not
only within but also without. A silent space of intense presence arises both in you and around
you. Whoever or whatever enters that field of consciousness will be affected by it, sometimes
visibly and immediately, sometimes at deeper levels with visible changes appearing at a later
time. You dissolve discord, heal pain, dispel unconsciousness - without doing anything -
simply by being and holding that frequency of intense presence.


I hope that makes sense, lol...

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