Profiles - Gender

Kit wrote: Can I get a 'dictionary check' please so I know we're all on the same page hahaa

Sex: physical pluming
Gender: the emotional/mental identity to society roles of male/female?

lol

What is the difference between sex and gender?
Sex = male and female

Gender = masculine and feminine

So in essence:

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

So while your sex as male or female is a biological fact that is the same in any culture, what that sex means in terms of your gender role as a 'man' or a 'woman' in society can be quite different cross culturally. These 'gender roles' have an impact on the health of the individual.

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

'man' = male sex+ masculine social role

(a 'real man', 'masculine' or 'manly')

'woman' = female sex + feminine social role

(a 'real woman', 'feminine' or 'womanly')

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

I see what you mean , but there is an "about me" section too , where you can put all kinds of information you want to share about yourself

People habitually find the information they're looking for as quickly as possible and if it requires them to do more than a quick reading, they quit caring. It's a very common and widely spread human flaw.

Once upon a time (read less than an hour ago), my profile said "Gender: female" so that people could easily access it and see "this person uses the feminine pronoun". Far faster and more simplistic than "Ok, here's there about me section.... sex female... oh but here it says they use male pronouns...." blah blah blah

I can't tell you the number of people I know who are biologically one sex, but gender identify something different. "Gender" tells us how people want to be addressed, how they view themselves, and how to respect that individual as an individual. Not saying you have to agree with gender identity being different than the biological sex, but it ultimately comes down to being respectful to that individual. It's unrelated to biological sex, which is why most sites utilize gender over sex.

Does it and should it though?

Yes it does and yes it should, if purely out of respect for that individual, but I'm not going to get into that with you.

(and also my last bit of input here before the thread derails further..)

Avalonslight wrote:

I see what you mean , but there is an "about me" section too , where you can put all kinds of information you want to share about yourself

People habitually find the information they're looking for as quickly as possible and if it requires them to do more than a quick reading, they quit caring. It's a very common and widely spread human flaw.

Once upon a time (read less than an hour ago), my profile said "Gender: female" so that people could easily access it and see "this person uses the feminine pronoun". Far faster and more simplistic than "Ok, here's there about me section.... sex female... oh but here it says they use male pronouns...." blah blah blah

I can't tell you the number of people I know who are biologically one sex, but gender identify something different. "Gender" tells us how people want to be addressed, how they view themselves, and how to respect that individual as an individual. Not saying you have to agree with gender identity being different than the biological sex, but it ultimately comes down to being respectful to that individual. It's unrelated to biological sex, which is why most sites utilize gender over sex.

Does it and should it though?

Yes it does and yes it should, if purely out of respect for that individual, but I'm not going to get into that with you.

If they can go to your profile to see what "gender" you are they should not be put of by what "sex" you are , there have been misunderstandings enough here with males who use anime girls as avatars and find themselfes be called "she " and vica versa , frankly i respect everyone here , whatever their "gender indentification" is , i dont have to see in 2 seconds who you are , i want to get to know you by talking to you but thats my opinion. Maybe we should not use the word sex and gender at all and start to treat eachother with the respect we deserve ...

Does it and should it though?

Yes it does and yes it should, if purely out of respect for that individual, but I'm not going to get into that with you.

(and also my last bit of input here before the thread derails further..)

No, it shouldn't. read the doctrine.

Honestly, the only thing I care about in the profile is "Do I call this person 'he' or 'she'?" which would be gender right? It's not like I'm planning on sleeping with anyone here so their plumbing doesn't matter to me.

And there's more genders than "male" and "female". I can see how "fill in the blank" would be more handy and inclusive (which is what we're generally about).

Kit wrote: Honestly, the only thing I care about in the profile is "Do I call this person 'he' or 'she'?" which would be gender right? It's not like I'm planning on sleeping with anyone here so their plumbing doesn't matter to me.

And there's more genders than "male" and "female". I can see how "fill in the blank" would be more handy and inclusive (which is what we're generally about).

That made me laugh out loud Kit

I see what you mean , but there is an "about me" section too , where you can put all kinds of information you want to share about yourself

People habitually find the information they're looking for as quickly as possible and if it requires them to do more than a quick reading, they quit caring. It's a very common and widely spread human flaw.

Once upon a time (read less than an hour ago), my profile said "Gender: female" so that people could easily access it and see "this person uses the feminine pronoun". Far faster and more simplistic than "Ok, here's there about me section.... sex female... oh but here it says they use male pronouns...." blah blah blah

I can't tell you the number of people I know who are biologically one sex, but gender identify something different. "Gender" tells us how people want to be addressed, how they view themselves, and how to respect that individual as an individual. Not saying you have to agree with gender identity being different than the biological sex, but it ultimately comes down to being respectful to that individual. It's unrelated to biological sex, which is why most sites utilize gender over sex.

Does it and should it though?

Yes it does and yes it should, if purely out of respect for that individual, but I'm not going to get into that with you.

If they can go to your profile to see what "gender" you are they should not be put of by what "sex" you are , there have been misunderstandings enough here with males who use anime girls as avatars and find themselfes be called "she " and vica versa , frankly i respect everyone here , whatever their "gender indentification" is , i dont have to see in 2 seconds who you are , i want to get to know you by talking to you but thats my opinion. Maybe we should not use the word sex and gender at all and start to treat eachother with the respect we deserve ...

Kinda missed my point. When you change "gender" to "sex" you force a duality that ignores the complexities of gender. They're not seeing your gender necessarily; they're not seeing how you identify yourself or how you wish to be identified. They're seeing something is that purely biological and black and white. When they have "Sex: [x]" and then have to read through a paragraph to find "identifies as gender [y] please use [y] pronouns"... your average individual is not going to take the time to read that paragraph to find that information, because they've already got "sex: [x]" set in their mind from the easier piece of text to read and access.

"Gender: [y]" is completely void the risk of the biological sex duality, because it's a matter of identification and not a matter of anatomical parts a person happened to be born with. A person doesn't have to hunt through an about me section... it's right there.

On the online, social world, "gender" is more appropriate to social interaction than "sex" because it allows each individual to ignore the black/white of their biological sex and express themselves how they see themselves, which let's those interacting with them be respectful of them, which is different than respecting them.

But again, to avoid further derailing....

*bows out*

Does it and should it though?

Yes it does and yes it should, if purely out of respect for that individual, but I'm not going to get into that with you.

(and also my last bit of input here before the thread derails further..)

No, it shouldn't. read the doctrine.

There is nothing in the doctrine which dictates that biological sex is more important than gender identification.

I'm seeing now why there are some individuals on the site who feel like who they are as an individual is attacked or ignored... Excuse me for trying to explain it and build inclusiveness (cause it's not like it wasn't pointed out that that's a central foundation of the site anyway...)

Avalonslight wrote:

MartaLina wrote:

Avalonslight wrote:

I see what you mean , but there is an "about me" section too , where you can put all kinds of information you want to share about yourself

People habitually find the information they're looking for as quickly as possible and if it requires them to do more than a quick reading, they quit caring. It's a very common and widely spread human flaw.

Once upon a time (read less than an hour ago), my profile said "Gender: female" so that people could easily access it and see "this person uses the feminine pronoun". Far faster and more simplistic than "Ok, here's there about me section.... sex female... oh but here it says they use male pronouns...." blah blah blah

I can't tell you the number of people I know who are biologically one sex, but gender identify something different. "Gender" tells us how people want to be addressed, how they view themselves, and how to respect that individual as an individual. Not saying you have to agree with gender identity being different than the biological sex, but it ultimately comes down to being respectful to that individual. It's unrelated to biological sex, which is why most sites utilize gender over sex.

Does it and should it though?

Yes it does and yes it should, if purely out of respect for that individual, but I'm not going to get into that with you.

If they can go to your profile to see what "gender" you are they should not be put of by what "sex" you are , there have been misunderstandings enough here with males who use anime girls as avatars and find themselfes be called "she " and vica versa , frankly i respect everyone here , whatever their "gender indentification" is , i dont have to see in 2 seconds who you are , i want to get to know you by talking to you but thats my opinion. Maybe we should not use the word sex and gender at all and start to treat eachother with the respect we deserve ...

Kinda missed my point. When you change "gender" to "sex" you force a duality that ignores the complexities of gender. They're not seeing your gender necessarily; they're not seeing how you identify yourself or how you which to be identified. They're seeing something is that purely biological and black and white. When they have "Sex: [x]" and then have to read through a paragraph to find "identifies as gender [y] please use [y] pronouns"... your average individual is not going to take the time to read that paragraph to find that information, because they've already got "sex: [x]" set in their mind from the easier piece of text to read and access.

"Gender: [y]" is completely void the risk of the biological sex duality, because it's a matter of identification and not a matter of anatomical parts a person happened to be born with. A person doesn't have to hunt through an about me section... it's right there.

On the online, social world, "gender" is more appropriate to social interaction than "sex" because it allows each individual to ignore the black/white of their biological sex and express themselves how they see themselves, which let's those interacting with them be respectful of them, which is different than respecting them.

But again, to avoid further derailing....

*bows out*

Ok , my point is that when i have to see anything about you , i have to go to your profile , much of the profiles are not public, so i cant tell anyway what sex or gender said person is , when i am in a discussion here at the forum , i see a name, rank and foto , thats all , no gender identification , nothing ...i have to go to their profile to find out more about them ...if they choose not to disclose i have to ask them . i dont see that as a problem. This is a good discussion , because now we see what we dont see when we chat in forum ..and it really should not have to matter , when i call you a "he" and i am wrong , you can tell me , that you are a she ..no matter what your sex is

MartaLina wrote:

Kit wrote: Honestly, the only thing I care about in the profile is "Do I call this person 'he' or 'she'?" which would be gender right? It's not like I'm planning on sleeping with anyone here so their plumbing doesn't matter to me.

And there's more genders than "male" and "female". I can see how "fill in the blank" would be more handy and inclusive (which is what we're generally about).

That made me laugh out loud Kit

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Hahahaha that's exactly what I think about when I think of that option. "Sex: yes please"

wait, when did that section turn to sex? Wasn't it gender before? when did that change?

This really isn't the thread for this. I just wanted options. Please take discussion of gender versus sex elsewhere.

-original post deleted-

I feel like adding more options for a "gender" button would be best. Trying to efficiently cover as many bases as possible without getting super specific, however, might be an issue. I would leave it at a "Gender" selection or dropdown of "male, female, agender, genderfluid, other" at first, and leave additional ones open to suggestion.

Changing it to "sex" would be very problematic for a number of reasons that the Temple shouldn't really screw with at the moment.

Edan I get what you're saying. The reason I keep talking about sex vs gender though is because what was the gender option is now the sex option. They mean two entirely different things and serve two entirely different purposes. Which is why I keep saying it needs to be left as gender... And yes, more options should be added.

If gender was changed to sex purely because of ease of editing, then that's wrong. It's (typically speaking) very easy to update drop downs to add more options or change them to text box options all together. But gender should not have been changed to sex. That's not the purpose that box serves.... That box serves to tell us how to address one another. Not what anatomical parts we each have.

Edan wrote: This really isn't the thread for this. I just wanted options. Please take discussion of gender versus sex elsewhere.

Im sorry you feel that "this isn't the place for it...

It is....

An idea was brought forth, and its playing out....

People get upset when the "playing out" doesn't go as planned, but, like life, little goes exactly.as planned...

I speak as a person, not a knight, or Councillor, ...

I.like gender....

Gender, is a personal identifier... and I think it should say "gender" or simply remove the option,period...

just change it to Gender and be done with it

Firewolf wrote: just change it to Gender and be done with it

You mean change it back to the way it was this morning before someone changed it. . .

This thread wasn't ever calling for changing gender to sex or sex to gender.

Rather Edan had pointed out that this particular profile entry only had two options, male or female, and considering that gender is more complex than black or white, she was asking if it would be possible to either add additional options, or as some even suggested, changing it from a drop-down menu to a text box fill in.

If you ask me, the easiest (and fastest/most efficient/best) option would be to label it as gender and make it a fill in text box, that way each person can put whatever works best for them and no single person is left trying to identify all the possible gender options out there.

Sex=frequently?

Also, I still haven't identified as either male or female on the forums, even before this nonsense. Personally, I'm not bothered either way, but I know there may be some who are. I would go with a fill in the blank option if that will make people happy.

Also, a lot of people refer to me as sir, especially if I use my other name on forums. It hasn't happened here because I think my name is a pretty good identifier. Some people call ma Master (which I am a little concerned about unless they are my apprentice) but I think the term "Jedi" can work just as well

Jestor wrote: An idea was brought forth, and its playing out....

It's not entirely clear to me what interest is served by this change. To leave it as it was seemed harmless. If there was a danger, I'm interesting understanding it.

To change it, to brush off issues of identity and respect, does strike me as overtly harmful. I am a male. I use traditional male pronouns, so perhaps I am not directly affected by this. That said, the world is much grander than my specific set of concerns. It would be terribly arrogant of me to behave as if only my concerns were valid. Blazingly pretentious if I were to hide that all behind Jedi objectivity, but whatever.

1. If an idea was put forth, what was that idea? What was the compelling reason for it?
2. If that idea was acted on without Council approval (which has been suggested, though not substantiated), that strikes me as a problem all its own. Was this the case?

I would appreciate someone from the council addressing these two questions. Thank you.

Avalonslight wrote:

Does it and should it though?

Yes it does and yes it should, if purely out of respect for that individual, but I'm not going to get into that with you.

(and also my last bit of input here before the thread derails further..)

No, it shouldn't. read the doctrine.

There is nothing in the doctrine which dictates that biological sex is more important than gender identification.

I'm seeing now why there are some individuals on the site who feel like who they are as an individual is attacked or ignored... Excuse me for trying to explain it and build inclusiveness (cause it's not like it wasn't pointed out that that's a central foundation of the site anyway...)

Way to spin things around.

The doctrine specifically says that society should not discriminate on the basis of gender. behaving differently towards people on the basis of their gender is discrimination.

I'm seeing now why there are some individuals on the site who feel like who they are as an individual is attacked or ignored... Excuse me for trying to explain it and build inclusiveness (cause it's not like it wasn't pointed out that that's a central foundation of the site anyway...)

Those individuals should learn to control their silly feelings, because this is a jedi community, not an emo community.

If those individuals do not satisfactorily feel included when offered an option of sex:male,female,neither, which covers 100% of all known life forms, matter and energy in the universe, I doubt they will ever satisfactorily feel included anywhere in our universe, and especially not within totjo.

It's (typically speaking) very easy to update drop downs to add more options or change them to text box options all together.

In our case we have to go from a 2 bit integer to a string, so it's a pain.

Gender is silly. To many non-english speakers it's a useless attribute all nouns have, not something that gets associated with people. Got rid of it as soon as I realised I could.

simply remove the option,period...

If "sex" is not seen as useful (as someone else pointed out, we can just figure it out in a conversation), I'm all for removing it.

I'm a Two-Spirit to use the Native American Indian term being that I have equal amounts of female and male energies within me.
Yes, I was born a female. Yes, I use female terms (she, her, hers). No, I'm not bothered if someone talks to me and uses the male pronouns (he, him, his) or refers about me using such.

The above is an example of three different bases. The first is concerned with what parts I'm born with. The second is what I think of myself as. The third is what I'm okay with others thinking of me as.

I include my own thoughts below.

In regards to the issue of gender: Some people may feel uncomfortable when talked to or about as one when they feel like they are the other, even though they were born as the first. Others identify as both and it might not matter. Still more consider themselves to be no gender at all and are uncomfortable or not in regards to terms of address and may or may not prefer they, them, their, theirs.

It is no easy matter. Whatever one thinks of this life, one experiences it in myriad ways. Not just through sight, touch, taste, sound, smell. There is [to me] to be two types of feeling. That which is emotive, and that which is physical. Again, it seems to me, to be a matter of balance between the different levels of sensory modalities (temperature, balance, pain, internal, hunger, time, and more) different levels of what one's function is (family, social, professional/scholastically, etc) and different "worlds'--though that particular term might not be the correct one for what I mean here (spiritual, physical, emotional, intellectual, etc, etc, etc. (It could go on forever)).

If two people were to go through the same situation, they would have different experiences and would react differently.
If one person were to go through the same situation with different outlooks on life or thought patterns, they would have different experiences and would react differently.

Blessed Keep, and May the Force Be With You.