New Degree System of Jediism?

I feel that the A.Div at Knight is right where it should be. IP coursework is not degree-worthy on its own, given the small scope and short term of the study. While it requires much in the way of introspection, it requires very little in the way of actual education.

Furthermore, the D.Div is (at least in the US) widely regarded as an honorary degree. While I'd like to see TOTJO revamp their degree scheme to include it in the actual coursework.

Wikipedia wrote: In the United States, Doctor of Divinity is traditionally an honorary degree granted by a church-related college, seminary, or university to recognize the recipient's ministry-orientated accomplishments.

Learn.org wrote: In the United States, a Doctor of Divinity (D.Div.) is an honorary degree and cannot be earned through an academic program. Some colleges allow you to apply for the honorary degree if you prove you have a bachelor's degree and enough experience in ministry. These degrees are often conferred to selected recipients annually.

TOTJO is a corporation based in the US, and is therefore subject to US law and customs moreso than in any other locality.

Avalonslight wrote: We know the A.Div equates to earning your knighthood.

No.

Avalonslight wrote: To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"?

Yes. This is what we use it for now.

This is how it applies to the Apprenticeship, the A.Div is a requirement of Knighthood, but if your Training Master doesn't think you are ready for Knighthood, or the Council doesn't think you are ready, it doesn't matter how many points you have for your degree, you will not be Knighted.

Apprenticeship is about personal development. The A.Div is about ensuring that people do at least a similar amount of work in total, because before this was implemented (when Knights were given full reign) Apprentices could have to do wildly different amounts of work.

Akkarin wrote: This is how it applies to the Apprenticeship, the A.Div is a requirement of Knighthood...

This is what I meant. Sorry if I didn't state that clearly, but that is what I meant by "it is the equivalent of". Without the A.Div, you can't have the knighthood. That much I knew pretty clearly.

I was more interested in this part of what I said:

The B.Div is part of what is necessary to reach senior knight, along with the so many apprentices (unless that's an outdated thing too). So is that right there not the purpose of it in the first place? To keep track of the necessary developmental steps and studies to say "yes, this person has done the right level of studying to reach the senior knight rank"? *shrugs* Seems like the point to me.

Since people are questioning the purpose of the degree scheme, I was trying to figure out if that was in fact it.

Connor L. wrote: I am still waiting for somebody to come along and tell me what they think the PURPOSE of the Degree Scheme is.

External legitimacy and record-keeping.

The Degree Scheme (and it IS a degree scheme, regardless of what my "betters" above have said) mirrors the advancement of a collegiate-level student in a standard school seeking a degree in the subject matter of Divinity, which is slightly less research-intensive than the more-static academic field of Theology.

A.Div = Associate of Divinity = The equivalent of a "two-year" degree. In general, the Associate degree in the States is something that can be earned on the way to a more traditional (and useful) Bachelors/four-year degree, or if one only needs a minimum of post-secondary training to be certified or licensed for a task. In TOTJO, Knighthood fits neatly here because it is the minimum amount of required coursework to be recognized by the first major rank.

B.Div = Bachelor of Divinity = The equivalent of a "four-year" degree. Generally speaking, when folks go to college for a "degree", as V said, they go for a Bachelor's degree, spending four years studying their subject matter and gaining more knowledge on the topic than a mere certificate or license would cover. In TOTJO, the B.Div indicates a dedicated level of learning beyond the A.Div, and showcases the student's drive to understand our teachings better.

And I personally and wholeheartedly believe we should reincorporate the M.Div and the D.Div into course-level or measurable activities, as well. Especially the D.Div, which I mentioned earlier is typically only an honorary title and not one that showcases work on a topic.

The reason we have this degree scheme is the same reason that other churches, seminaries, colleges, and spiritual organizations do: because the Church (generic usage here) can award degrees to denote a measure of study, and these degrees mean more (i.e., can be more easily interpreted) to those outside our structure than our internal ranks of Knight, Sr. Knight, Master, etc.

Our "degree scheme" has none; it can be used nowhere else.

Edan wrote: Our "degree scheme" has none; it can be used nowhere else.

And neither can the equivalent degrees from any other non-accredited religious institution. We're not a college, Edan. We're a church. But these degrees are typical and traditional among religious groups, spiritual groups, seminaries, and certain schools.

If so, then what if the Temple actually conferred Associates and Bachelors degrees as it has the formal authority to do, complete with a hard-copy diploma for purchase if someone was so inclined?

steamboat28 wrote: And neither can the equivalent degrees from any other non-accredited religious institution. We're not a college, Edan. We're a church. But these degrees are typical and traditional among religious groups, spiritual groups, seminaries, and certain schools.

Steam points out something very important. No matter how the degree scheme is organized, even if TotJO does send out "certificates" or what have you related to those degree schemes, these degrees won't be recognized by a traditional, accredited university, in any country. They'll purely be for internal use, though can be recognized externally by other religious organizations that structure their religious training in similar fashions as a form of legitimacy.

That said, if my understanding that posted earlier is accurate, that is that the degree scheme is meant to universalize how much work each individual has put into studying towards the next rank, be it knight or senior knight, then the way it's set up right now serves that purpose just fine, in my opinion.

Steam, I agree. Thanks for a good, straight-forward answer that I can work with. Unfortunately, the coursework post Apprenticeship... doesn't really look anything like a Bachelors or Masters degree. It's more an organic hodge-podge of random lessons thrown together.

So, the next step would be to say... what are the areas of study we would want somebody with a B Div. to have under their belt? And, so on with the M Div. and D Div.

I think the A Div. is perfect the way it is. It should take a year to two years to complete it.

But, the self-study B Div. is... well. Messy.

V-Tog wrote: D.Div has more or less been scrapped, and M.Div has been suspended for a long time now

*curls up in a ball and cries, cradling her shattered dreams*

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

V-Tog wrote: D.Div has more or less been scrapped, and M.Div has been suspended for a long time now

*curls up in a ball and cries, cradling her shattered dreams*

Be the change, Snowy. lol

Connor L. wrote: So, the next step would be to say... what are the areas of study we would want somebody with a B Div. to have under their belt? And, so on with the M Div. and D Div.

As mentioned earlier, I'd use an advanced application to the IP material, such as this which I'm working through
http://jordanbpeterson.com/Psy230H/ which is here;
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?action_edit=1&list=PL22J3VaeABQAhrMCQUa6sde_Y9DVbLYRv
.. and additional set stuff. With electives as well so people can personalize their study.

Then make the D. Div. a research and thesis project.

steamboat wrote:

And I personally and wholeheartedly believe we should reincorporate the M.Div and the D.Div into course-level or measurable activities, as well. Especially the D.Div, which I mentioned earlier is typically only an honorary title and not one that showcases work on a topic.

i agree, and it's something i'm considering/working on...the trick is getting everything sorted and getting enough on board for it....i'm still in the "getting everything sorted" phase...as has been mentioned a few times, things are a bit of a mess, at no one's fault as the system was kind of just thrown together, then modified and adjusted over the years....a complete overhaul will take considerable time and work

IMO, degrees must represent experience and achievements, not books read or books written.

Zen was passed pretty much binary, AFAIK. Either you are or you are not. And all based on simple passage from one hands to the other.

Seems to me that those with Master- and Doctorate-type titles should be groundbreakers in some way. Like, really have done something significant as far as developing and adding to Jediism with some major kind of effort. It should be appropriately time and life consuming. Maybe the reward for earning a Doctorate-type of deal could eventually be some kind of a (humble) monetary grant to support their research.

The Noben Prize.

*giggles to herself*

Sorry, I'll show myself out.

D.Div was awarded to cardinals/Councillors at totjo.

The degree scheme was created at a time when rank was randomly given to people. It was started as a trial scheme for knights and above by Mark Anjuu, who had himself become GM and Bishop with very little training here. It was later made a requirement within the ranking system, in order to "repair" it. That's why these days apprenticeships last such a long time.

People with degrees get certain titles. At totjo, We call a graduate (bachelor's degree) a "senior knight" or a "master" if they have also trained a few knights. I don't see what's so wrong with that.

To Bring the question back: if degree system is for selfstudy purpose. How does it make difference if we have ranks?

Aqua wrote: To Bring the question back: if degree system is for selfstudy purpose. How does it make difference if we have ranks?

If you think about it, it makes all the difference. There are two ways to read self-study here :

• Study that one does by oneself
• Study of oneself by oneself

A teaching master - like a Zen master - is just an accompaniment, a reference, someone to tell you that you're fooling yourself. The Knight who can teach has nothing to teach - not in the way your college professor does. One cannot teach someone else who they are. Let's liken the path of the Hero to that of Individuation (again, that does not mean individualism, which is very much the contrary) - the encounter with the Self (not the phenomenal "me"). What we do here in the TotJO is "the way for stupid people" as Watts talked about. It is hard, we rigorously go looking for that "right way", "that special thing" that'll get me to enlightenment. "The easy way for smart people" is just to recognise the "tat tvam asi" and let it go at that ...

So, since we're on the "hard way" (which, frankly, most everyone is), then we need to break it down. The IP is where one could very well be encountering some of these ideas for the very first time in their lives. These are not just things to be considered and done to get on to the juicier bits later ... They are the principles at the very core of that pathway - which, every individual's path is unique to that individual. The reason why the core lessons in the IP seem so vague is because precision is impossible. This can only be talked about symbolically. And symbols do not do the same as signs do ; symbols are never - nor can they be - adequate to convey an accurate conception of that to which they refer. It has to be a vital, not a mental, experience.

Our ranks show to what degree one has actually interacted with these ideas, these principles and paradoxes ... With someone else who does (not "has done") the same with some regularity. It is "self-study" because one cannot be "taught" this stuff the way one gets "taught" history (though it may be very well like once could be "taught" piano). It is "self study" because one is 'studying' oneself, in order to get to know what we mean when we say "I". "Who am I ?" is one of the very elemental existential questions (sein < ~ > da-sein) .... A Knight may not be any closer to or better than anyone else who allows him/herself to be confronted by the question (in other words, takes off their comfort/convenience armour), but is someone who has, time and time again, dealt with this sort of questioning. And it is the sort of questioning that one finds in the very first part of the very first lesson in the IP.

Aqua wrote: To Bring the question back: if degree system is for selfstudy purpose. How does it make difference if we have ranks?

Ranks here are only level of commitment to the path, and showing TOTJO membership your seriousness..

I like think "the higher the rank, the more aware of how little they know"... hahaha...

The ranks are unimportant, yet, their symbolism lets folks "know" something at a glance about them....

Alexandre Orion wrote:

Aqua wrote: To Bring the question back: if degree system is for selfstudy purpose. How does it make difference if we have ranks?

If you think about it, it makes all the difference. There are two ways to read self-study here :

• Study that one does by oneself
• Study of oneself by oneself

:blink: That are some serious words there. When I mind about things I see hundred and one things, when you say it like that I think: ,,Why did I not see that more early.'' Your minding about these kind of questions is opening for me, if I am allowed to ask a little bit further to it, what is the purpose to have ''two sections'' in the study of the self? What is the reason to create A and B div?

Why not creating more or less? What is the idea behind the two? What is the purpose of letting a other person know how far we are in the study of the self if it is an individual path? We all study together, it may help with interactions. Honestly I have never found a need to ask someone about their div. because I know when someone his/her mind is ahead of my own. :blush:

How do we know when the way of display is not needed? When does one person knows that a other person needs it? Why does the temple hold on to this ''layered'' way of minding when every person is different from a other? And how should I understand what a other persons ''layer'' of minding is? What would it do with me? And is it fair to give one a ''layer of minding'' while we all mind different about different parts of the self? How should I deal with these questions?

~ Aqua

Aqua wrote: To Bring the question back: if degree system is for selfstudy purpose. How does it make difference if we have ranks?

Degrees are for communicating our dedication to outsiders.
Ranks are for communicating our experiences among ourselves.