Senior Knights

Well, idk 'monumerntal", lol...

but, that can be argued, that is for sure...

Originally, it was just a lesson bank for Knights to share things we all thought was important, it was not for the degree scheme, so, originally, it was for Knights only...

When the degree talk started, we said we could use those lessons as suggestions... And yes, for the basic degree, our basic learning seemed to make sense together...

As our degrees are, uh, 'ours'...

We can set up whatever criteria we choose...

I feel that, the Knighthood is minimum for a degree...

If we untangle the A.Div (whatever) from Knighthood, I would still consider Knighthood mandatory to beginning to get a degree... You cant go to college without primary, then middle, then college (local levels apply, lol)....

There are steps...

Our teachings are different, as we are trying to make good humans, not academics, lol...

Then we have yet another split in the house, we would have "Knights, Clergy, and Degrees"

Im not too happy about the clergy spin-off, (as I see it), but, thats for another thread... :pinch:

ren wrote: If we were responsible for purposefully restricting access to knowledge after the full-scale launch of the degree scheme out of political concerns with apprentices (instead of telling them to suck it up and be patient) then we seriously lost our way that day. If we forgot to open the forum to non-knights after changing the requirements to knighthood then what a monumental screw-up.

Not sure if this is what you mean by 'political' but the idea of "hiding" the lessons and points etc was to make sure students, Apprentices and below, didn't spend their time thinking about "points" rather spending their time just doing the lessons.

The Apprenticeship isn't the Degree, but why would we open up the Degree to non-students? As we move to a more modular system I suppose we might try to encourage more stuff like tzb's course , without openly showing everyone all the administrative details we need for the Degree to work but which would only distract people from the actual work itself.

I'll have to agree with ren here, maybe go even further. Learning institutions aren't a novel thing, and frankly there is little need in reinventing them. There is a hierarchy of degrees, academic or not, and aside from the occasional school year, nobody gets to skip anything and get their master's degree before their high school diploma.
However...
Much of the information required for either is available, freely or behind a purchase fee, on the internet and in text books, to every citizen regardless of their academic past or ability to comprehend the material at hand. You do need to have studied engineering before you can get any self-respecting manufacturer to build your rocket plane nor will you be allowed to make a liver transplant if all you are is a dentist, but you do not need to be a botanist to pick weeds from your garden, you don't need to have ever driven a go-cart before you are allowed to take driving lessons, you do not need to learn ancient greek before you can learn modern one, and you do not need to study anything before you can preach a religion.
To cut availability of a lesson to those who have passed a strictly unnecessary rite of passage (I couldn't find a more fitting description) is equivalent to saying that you cannot study astronomy unless you learned to speak latin first... as well as put on this here monastic garment. It's not just absurd, it is also elitist to a non-negligible extent and the mere fact that much of the realm of school and academy functions just fine without restrictions of this sort renders most of any reasoning in its favour moot or at the very least misguided.

Out of your sight, we are further discussing this whole issue...

However, you are correct to say anyone can study, anything...

So, what does access to our list gain someone? Some stuff I might feel is important?

Who cares about what I think?

Study what you like, regardless, your journey is about you...

So lets say you can see the list, and think its crap cause it doesn't have "I love me some Jestor, by Ren", and you deem the whole thing trash, and say, "I'm outta here"...

Or, you clamor for your book to be added, but why should we add it? Because you say so, and you are studying for a degree?

+++++
Quick question, for all, does everyone remember this is a trial program?

MarkAnjuu's announcement states it plainly... l forgot too, lol...

Well I'd think for some of us the post is possibly older than the time we've spent here
I didn't know it was a trial... Where does it say that? Don't trials normally have an end date

I thought a Senior Knight was a Knight who had successfully trained three Apprentices who attained the rank of Knight. Then there was also an additional training option which I don't know the details of. Somebody throw me a bone here.

John....

 
Definition of the rank of "Senior Knight"
A. The rank of "Knight" must be held according to regulations currently in force.
B. The B.Div level of the degree scheme must have been successfully completed.
C. The Knight must have been active in the Order prior to the promotion to Senior Knight.
D. The Council must have approved the promotion to Senior Knight

Edan...

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Degree-Qualification-Scheme/31483-details-of-the-degree-qualification-scheme

For those without access....

Edan wrote: Well I'd think for some of us the post is possibly older than the time we've spent here
I didn't know it was a trial... Where does it say that? Don't trials normally have an end date

June 2010... lol...

I would think the title, and "stickyness" would have garnered attention, ...

Akkarin wrote: The Apprenticeship isn't the Degree, but why would we open up the Degree to non-students? As we move to a more modular system I suppose we might try to encourage more stuff like tzb's course , without openly showing everyone all the administrative details we need for the Degree to work but which would only distract people from the actual work itself.

Because it allows people to study without having to become part of the system? People sometimes want to study but do not wish to enter an apprenticeship (in fact under a certain age they're not allowed), or do not wish to be a knight (because of the oath, or do not wish to undertake any of the duties, etc). And if they do change their mind after obtaining the degree, they could always get an apprenticeship then. I'm sue it could only make things more interesting.

Not sure if this is what you mean by 'political' but the idea of "hiding" the lessons and points etc was to make sure students, Apprentices and below, didn't spend their time thinking about "points" rather spending their time just doing the lessons.

Counting to 100 doesn't require that great a deal of time. The fact is apprentices should have been told by their masters they would consider points for the A.Div when and where appropriate, and the apprenticeship would come to an end when appropriate also. Instead, masters asked for "security through obscurity" and got just that, because they can be stubborn with their apprenticeship stuff, we needed their help for the degree and it just wasn't worth the risk. So, down to politics.

Quick question, for all, does everyone remember this is a trial program?

MarkAnjuu's announcement states it plainly... l forgot too, lol...

It stopped being a trial programme (something optional with no other reward than the degree itself for which an average of one knight per year showed interest in) the day we made it a requirement for the knight and senior knight ranks. And I think back then we were slightly short of points for the B.Div in the pool of lessons....

While it is outdated, (actually, I don't think any of us realized our master would track us, and only Br. John is still here of those...

Mine and Damion (Jasper) is gone, RyuJin had Br. John and Kana Seiko Haruki, Alex (Damion, right?)...

Of the three who have earned it as they are supposed too, only Alex's Master is still here...

But, my point was, although outdated, since day one, it has been said to be for Knights...

That was 5 months after I.joined, and 2 months after Ren joined, and neither of us were on Council... lol...

Just fun facts, lol...

Edit: Br. John and Damion are still here, lol...

I wrote that somewhat confusingly... lol...

It's time to take this issue up with the College of Knight's and The Council for a clear updated definition and program. And I'd publish the proposed plan for public comment before anything becomes in force.

Because it allows people to study without having to become part of the system?

We are not a school for anyone, lol...

We are here for training Jedi...

Should someone desire, they can study as they like, but we do not have to open our doors to the world, any more than any other school or organization...

Does this sound elitist? Maybe...

But, we don't stop folks from joining and participating... They stop themselves...

We just limit access to some of our stuff...

We've been making it our mission to make much valued knowledge available free of charge to all members of the order through the library, sometimes ignoring the law in the process.
The library originally was and a lot of it remains a collection of the materials masters ask their apprentices to read... you should know that, Jasper was librarian before me after all...

Yes, we are collecting the knowledge in our library for any with access, guests too, correct? (Can remember access level, lol)

But, we've never stated that about our training, only the IP has been open to all, the rest requires the free studies to be completed...

:whistle:
i certainly have a lot of notes to copy, read, and organize....

the difficulty lays in the somewhat scattered nature of them :lol:

Jestor wrote: Should someone desire, they can study as they like, but we do not have to open our doors to the world, any more than any other school or organization...

How do you not understand that this is not something anybody is asking? Do you seriously think that schools out there write and publish their own books to be distributed only and exclusively among their own, let alone among a specific, "sufficiently advanced" subset of their own? Bloody damn right this sounds elitist, and your insistence on painting boxes around your precious list of material as if the list was the material itself is nothing short of petty also, ironic though as it is.
Of course it is up to those who make the demand to demonstrate your obligation to provide, and all we can do at this point is argue that any other half-decent educational institution would, unlike TOTJO, actually not give away books for free without the authors' permission, but would, again - unlike TOTJO, list the topics of every course and often times even recommend related literature and similar study materials. That does not oblige TOTJO to anything, of course, nor does it need to justify perfectly legal secrecy. It just looks silly, but then that's not something TOTJO is going out of their way to declare they are trying not to be, is it?
Oh, wait... it is. :S

We just limit access to some of our stuff...

You don't have any stuff to call "our stuff". Cardboard boxes around other people's stuff is what you have. Compiling a list of lessons life made you face at some point or another is not actually an achievement, you know. Quit pretending that this place is a precious haven at the forefront of intellectual advancement, too dangerous and sacred for the little people out there to even know about. Come on now.

Anton has made a few good points in that rant ...

(... though, you're more convincing when you're not acerbic, lad.)

I don't know what the rest of you are doing ; I'm still keeping track of all of my apprentices (we don't have former apprentices), awarding them "points" here and there when they earn them (though they aren't always aware of it) and keeping the pedalogical/didactical dialogue(s) going ... It isn't so much out of respect for the "rules" of TotJO Apprentice-Master convention, but out of a natural love for teaching and how I view the pupil-teacher transaction (on several levels) as well as the symbol of the mentor from a million years of mythology.

Let's all relax a little.

How and why I teach is a reflection of my being Jedi. Hero with a Thousand Faces has been one of the textbooks in my World Mythology course these past two years. Each semester, re-reading Campbell uncovers new insights requiring re-working the lessons plans (lesson plan = the order and content of the class instruction for that day); and, of course, I learn from my students as well. I regret not having the discipline to write all this out and post it in my Knight's Journal (if I had one).

As I am one who likes order from chaos, I believe that all the lesson plans should be gone through and given a 100-200-300 level designation. This way we can set up our Div’s just like a college. By doing this, we can allow anyone to see the lesson plans, but yet no one can advance through the lessons until they have completed the previous Div.

As Ren has stated, (i can't believe I agree with Ren ) if there are some that come here just to advance their knowledge of the Jedi Way, it would be accessible to them. BUT we do not have to grant degrees to them unless they are in “the program”.

The question is how do we watch over someone who is going through the lessons and then decides to get in the program. It would be easy for them to complete the IP and Apprenticeship quickly. Not if the lesson plans for Knighthood from the Teaching Masters is different from the Div studies.

(EDIT) This may involve creating new lesson plans or altering existing ones, but if we are to be "Professional" in this organization and take up the calling of inspiring hearts and minds, it is a must.

I believe that we should either make the Apprenticeship the A-Div, or we should make the split. Either way is ok, but as this Temple grows (as I stated several years ago in another thread) we will need to become as a college or religious school with defined lesson plans and degrees schemes.

As far as I know:
The library is accessible to any registered user (Guest).
There are forums not visible to search engines and anyone not logged in.
There are forums only accessible to Apprentices.
There are forums only accessible to Knights.
There are forums only accessible to Clergy.
There is a special forum for moderators and admins.
There is a forum for The Council only visible to it and Sys Admins.

Just as no two Knights have received the same training there is no set plan for Senior Knight. There is no secret plan or materials for becoming a Senior Knight. As I said earlier, it's time The Council and The College of Knights take up this issue to update and clarify it. The proposed plan should be published for public comment before becoming policy.