Senior Knights

It's my understanding that a Senior Knight is a Knight who has completed the degree scheme to B.Div level.
The Degree Scheme page does list some things, but I have yet to actually figure out what the standards and requirements of the B.Div are.
The A.Div is something which is awarded after completing apprenticeship, which is made clear enough through the FAQ, and that the D.Div is something honorary and (to the best of my knowledge) not connected with anything set in stone.
I can only assume that the B.Div stuff is available after someone is ranked as a Knight, but I'm confused as to why I can't find any other information on it. Is it also honorary, like the D.Div?
Sorry if this information is easily found on the website and I just happened to miss it.

Edit: I know that it involves independent study -- but that's a very wide category. The word "study" itself could mean a great deal many things in this context.

Yes, you are correct, Senior Knights are those who have eared the B.Div...

You gain access to the relevant information once you reach Knighthood, as before then there's not much point dwelling on it...

The degree scheme is sort of under review at the moment, but B.Div involves a continuation of formal study with the amount of written work required in your B.Div journal theoretically equal to the amount required for a further two Apprenticeships, if that makes sense (although it is currently set up as an independent programme of study - but then again, plenty of students do decide to discuss their work with their former teaching master or with other members). There is a lesson bank with a huge amount of lessons available to do (contributed by the Knights/Masters over the years), which is where most people start off.

So no, it's not honourary, and it usually takes quite a long time to do, hence why you don't see all that many Senior Knights around...

In theory though, any Knight can choose to become a Senior Knight by committing to the studies - the rank denotes the amount of study the person has completed at TOTJO, not any other kind of hierarchy (definitely NOT 'the Council thinks you're a better Knight than the other Knights, so we'll upgrade you to Senior Knight' - it's nothing like that )

As I say though, it is under review and we also have a new officer in the position of degree scheme administrator, so it's possible things may work a little differently by the time you get there.

Hope that helps...

Where does one find this B. Div. lesson bank? Is it the Journal writings of Knights? Or is there a list of readings/activities?

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Lessons--Topics

Look at top two stickyed posts in that forum...

Although I thought that was in the KNights forum...

Weird...

Jestor wrote: Although I thought that was in the KNights forum...

Weird...

If it's still the same as it used to be, only the Knights+ have access to that area, so although it's not in THE Knights forum it's still in A Knights forum...

V-Tog wrote:

Jestor wrote: Although I thought that was in the KNights forum...

Weird...

If it's still the same as it used to be, only the Knights+ have access to that area, so although it's not in THE Knights forum it's still in A Knights forum...

Ah... That could be..

Hmm this shouldn't be like this actually, what if someone's interested in the degree scheme but not apprenticeship/rank? Surely there is a better solution now to prevent people from going through the system at the speed of light. Some of the information in those sticky threads is really out of date as well, no wonder people are so confused.

ren wrote: Hmm this shouldn't be like this actually, what if someone's interested in the degree scheme but not apprenticeship/rank? Surely there is a better solution now to prevent people from going through the system at the speed of light. Some of the information in those sticky threads is really out of date as well, no wonder people are so confused.

I cannot disagree with what you say here about outdated stuff, except that there is no one dedicated to the upkeep on accurate info, and that patrols threads for old info...

The degree scheme was not offered to someone, as we talked about the IP/ Apprenticeship, as entry level stuff...

It is our right to make it so...

We do not HAVE to offer it separately, and choose to not do so...

I'm not sure what you mean. The A.Div has always comprised of the IP (which we pegged to its original 100 points as we modified it) + an additional 100 points. the entirety of the degree scheme was self-study when it began, and was self-study when we required the A.Div to be completed before knighthood. It's the lack of lessons, administration, and help from Masters which forcibly involved teaching masters who wanted to see their numerous apprentices knighted.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing... however the inaccessibility of the degree scheme lessons to those who have to go through them in order to move on is just plain stupid. When some masters complained about their apprentices being excessively concerned about points a different solution should have been found...

Or is this just an (ageing) oversight? I can't remember doing more than create a new forum for the knights to put their lesson plans and such away from the apprentice sections back then.

If we were responsible for purposefully restricting access to knowledge after the full-scale launch of the degree scheme out of political concerns with apprentices (instead of telling them to suck it up and be patient) then we seriously lost our way that day. If we forgot to open the forum to non-knights after changing the requirements to knighthood then what a monumental screw-up.

Well, idk 'monumerntal", lol...

but, that can be argued, that is for sure...

Originally, it was just a lesson bank for Knights to share things we all thought was important, it was not for the degree scheme, so, originally, it was for Knights only...

When the degree talk started, we said we could use those lessons as suggestions... And yes, for the basic degree, our basic learning seemed to make sense together...

As our degrees are, uh, 'ours'...

We can set up whatever criteria we choose...

I feel that, the Knighthood is minimum for a degree...

If we untangle the A.Div (whatever) from Knighthood, I would still consider Knighthood mandatory to beginning to get a degree... You cant go to college without primary, then middle, then college (local levels apply, lol)....

There are steps...

Our teachings are different, as we are trying to make good humans, not academics, lol...

Then we have yet another split in the house, we would have "Knights, Clergy, and Degrees"

Im not too happy about the clergy spin-off, (as I see it), but, thats for another thread... :pinch:

ren wrote: If we were responsible for purposefully restricting access to knowledge after the full-scale launch of the degree scheme out of political concerns with apprentices (instead of telling them to suck it up and be patient) then we seriously lost our way that day. If we forgot to open the forum to non-knights after changing the requirements to knighthood then what a monumental screw-up.

Not sure if this is what you mean by 'political' but the idea of "hiding" the lessons and points etc was to make sure students, Apprentices and below, didn't spend their time thinking about "points" rather spending their time just doing the lessons.

The Apprenticeship isn't the Degree, but why would we open up the Degree to non-students? As we move to a more modular system I suppose we might try to encourage more stuff like tzb's course , without openly showing everyone all the administrative details we need for the Degree to work but which would only distract people from the actual work itself.

I'll have to agree with ren here, maybe go even further. Learning institutions aren't a novel thing, and frankly there is little need in reinventing them. There is a hierarchy of degrees, academic or not, and aside from the occasional school year, nobody gets to skip anything and get their master's degree before their high school diploma.
However...
Much of the information required for either is available, freely or behind a purchase fee, on the internet and in text books, to every citizen regardless of their academic past or ability to comprehend the material at hand. You do need to have studied engineering before you can get any self-respecting manufacturer to build your rocket plane nor will you be allowed to make a liver transplant if all you are is a dentist, but you do not need to be a botanist to pick weeds from your garden, you don't need to have ever driven a go-cart before you are allowed to take driving lessons, you do not need to learn ancient greek before you can learn modern one, and you do not need to study anything before you can preach a religion.
To cut availability of a lesson to those who have passed a strictly unnecessary rite of passage (I couldn't find a more fitting description) is equivalent to saying that you cannot study astronomy unless you learned to speak latin first... as well as put on this here monastic garment. It's not just absurd, it is also elitist to a non-negligible extent and the mere fact that much of the realm of school and academy functions just fine without restrictions of this sort renders most of any reasoning in its favour moot or at the very least misguided.

Out of your sight, we are further discussing this whole issue...

However, you are correct to say anyone can study, anything...

So, what does access to our list gain someone? Some stuff I might feel is important?

Who cares about what I think?

Study what you like, regardless, your journey is about you...

So lets say you can see the list, and think its crap cause it doesn't have "I love me some Jestor, by Ren", and you deem the whole thing trash, and say, "I'm outta here"...

Or, you clamor for your book to be added, but why should we add it? Because you say so, and you are studying for a degree?

+++++
Quick question, for all, does everyone remember this is a trial program?

MarkAnjuu's announcement states it plainly... l forgot too, lol...

Well I'd think for some of us the post is possibly older than the time we've spent here
I didn't know it was a trial... Where does it say that? Don't trials normally have an end date

I thought a Senior Knight was a Knight who had successfully trained three Apprentices who attained the rank of Knight. Then there was also an additional training option which I don't know the details of. Somebody throw me a bone here.

John....

 
Definition of the rank of "Senior Knight"
A. The rank of "Knight" must be held according to regulations currently in force.
B. The B.Div level of the degree scheme must have been successfully completed.
C. The Knight must have been active in the Order prior to the promotion to Senior Knight.
D. The Council must have approved the promotion to Senior Knight

Edan...

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Degree-Qualification-Scheme/31483-details-of-the-degree-qualification-scheme

For those without access....

Edan wrote: Well I'd think for some of us the post is possibly older than the time we've spent here
I didn't know it was a trial... Where does it say that? Don't trials normally have an end date

June 2010... lol...

I would think the title, and "stickyness" would have garnered attention, ...

Akkarin wrote: The Apprenticeship isn't the Degree, but why would we open up the Degree to non-students? As we move to a more modular system I suppose we might try to encourage more stuff like tzb's course , without openly showing everyone all the administrative details we need for the Degree to work but which would only distract people from the actual work itself.

Because it allows people to study without having to become part of the system? People sometimes want to study but do not wish to enter an apprenticeship (in fact under a certain age they're not allowed), or do not wish to be a knight (because of the oath, or do not wish to undertake any of the duties, etc). And if they do change their mind after obtaining the degree, they could always get an apprenticeship then. I'm sue it could only make things more interesting.

Not sure if this is what you mean by 'political' but the idea of "hiding" the lessons and points etc was to make sure students, Apprentices and below, didn't spend their time thinking about "points" rather spending their time just doing the lessons.

Counting to 100 doesn't require that great a deal of time. The fact is apprentices should have been told by their masters they would consider points for the A.Div when and where appropriate, and the apprenticeship would come to an end when appropriate also. Instead, masters asked for "security through obscurity" and got just that, because they can be stubborn with their apprenticeship stuff, we needed their help for the degree and it just wasn't worth the risk. So, down to politics.

Quick question, for all, does everyone remember this is a trial program?

MarkAnjuu's announcement states it plainly... l forgot too, lol...

It stopped being a trial programme (something optional with no other reward than the degree itself for which an average of one knight per year showed interest in) the day we made it a requirement for the knight and senior knight ranks. And I think back then we were slightly short of points for the B.Div in the pool of lessons....

While it is outdated, (actually, I don't think any of us realized our master would track us, and only Br. John is still here of those...

Mine and Damion (Jasper) is gone, RyuJin had Br. John and Kana Seiko Haruki, Alex (Damion, right?)...

Of the three who have earned it as they are supposed too, only Alex's Master is still here...

But, my point was, although outdated, since day one, it has been said to be for Knights...

That was 5 months after I.joined, and 2 months after Ren joined, and neither of us were on Council... lol...

Just fun facts, lol...

Edit: Br. John and Damion are still here, lol...

I wrote that somewhat confusingly... lol...