The Field, and Lynn McTaggert

Ty wrote: I think we're straying a bit far from the topic at hand, here.

What do you feel should be in the IP, if you were able to design it from scratch?

Oh, believe me, I have a big*** pile of **** over here on that list. I just haven't made it around to writing it all down and spamming Councillors with it yet. :whistle:

I'm surprised that Taoism isn't among the religions studied in the IP. It is perhaps the most closely related philosophy to Jediism.

this is the new religion exercise/lesson.

Lesson 6: Religion

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Category: New IP
Written by Ren Sydrick

For this lesson, you are to research and write an essay for each exercise. You can break up each exercise in multiple essays.

You can use whatever sources you wish to, books, television, or internet. Please make sure those sources are accurate, and please tell us where you obtained the information. The usual place for sourcing is at the end, please give book titles (along with author, etc) or web links. You can use resources put at your disposal at TOTJO's library.


The same ‘rules’ apply as with the previous lessons, please mind your structuring, spelling, punctuation, length. Don’t forget to maintain your back up copies.



Introduction to central philosophies of world religious movements:

Exercise 1: Explore Monotheism and polytheism. Compare the teachings and practices of a monotheistic with a polytheistic religion of your choosing.
Exercise 2: Explore the main concepts found in Taoic religions.
Exercise 3: Explore the practices and beliefs of a few new religious movements, pagan religions, and folk religions.
Exercise 4: Explore the pros and cons of belief and superstition, liturgy, skepticism in and of religion, criticism of religion and the meaning of "cult".
Exercise 5: Explore the meaning of liturgy and symbolism. Part of TOTJO's liturgy involves the Knight's code, please analyse its symbolism.



Bonus Exercise:

Research religions which no longer exist.





Exercise 5 Material: The Knights' Code


A knight is sworn to valor.
His heart knows only virtue.
His blade defends the helpless.
His word speaks only truth.
His Shield shelters the forsaken.
His courage gives hope to the despairing.
His justice undoes the wicked.
His image brings peace.
His code breaks the darkness,
His legend brings light.

It's not so sure that one excludes the other, religion & science ; I don't feel that we would best rigorously keep them apart. Indeed, it wouldn't be saying much for our 'faith' if we were to feel that something the existence of which we are sure, could not be explored (at least in part) by science. Science, with all of its methods is, after all, also a manifestation of the Force.

The thing which we would do well to remain aware of though is being too confident with our science. And this is one of the objections which 'The Field' raises. It presents rather badly - in a much too 'certain' way - some very inconclusive results (so far) as 'facts' or 'truths'. As aforementioned, even scientists (not only physicists) who work with these theories cannot explain these phenomena ... Ms McTaggart's 'journalism' is at best very pre-mature.

Thanks Ren. This is what I was seeing.

EXERCISE V: WORLD RELIGIONS

Category: Initiate Programme
Written by Ren Sydrick
For this exercise, you are to research and write an essay covering the following main world faiths/religions. You can use whatever sources you wish to, books, television, internet or wherever. But you MUST also tell us (at the end is the normal place for sourcing) where you obtained the information, so please give book titles (along with author, etc) or web links.
The same ‘rules’ apply as with the Joseph Campbell Lectures and Alan Watts Books etc, so structuring, spelling, punctuation, length. Don’t forget to maintain your back up copies.

Introduction to central philosophies of world religious movements:

Buddhism/Hinduism
Monotheism
Paganism
Atheism
Bonus Material – The Beginner's Guide To Buddhism.
There are a number of files on this link – please follow the same instructions as for Exercise Set 4.

In the case of using science, I think it can be very useful toward the cause, but only with the reasonable understanding that because science deals with the finite, it cannot properly answer the question of "what is the Force". I think it can however be used to study what it will see as "certain characteristics" that result from it. I kinda think that, because science can show certain things "for certain" that people get the urge to try to cling to it, thinking it will "certainly answer any question and give us the meaning to it all" because of that, which I feel is skewing its nature and over-estimating it, usually due to not having a full understanding of what science can deal with and what it really can't deal with. Where it cannot give complete answers to something, it can however give clues... In the case of the Force, I think its only wise to realize that those clues could go on without end, like trying to find the end of the line that makes a continuous circle. This is where science is good to be humble, and not try to be some authority.

I think this is the reason why somebody like McTaggart was chosen, because she is not an authority and didn't claim to be either. When I really think about it, it seems like even if we never had McTaggart, but had somebody who did claim to be a scientific authority, they would have eventually gotten kicked on even more than McTaggart due to certain things dealing with 1. Where their science doesn't reach the answers people want, and 2. The fact that they claim to be an authority all-the-while.

If something exists, it is within the purview of science. If it does not exist, it is not.

There is nothing in this universe which cannot be understood through the laws of mathematics, though we may not be able to understand it at this time.

Jedi are not about mysticism. A recurring theme in all of the SW literature is they are perceived that way by those who are ignorant of the way things truly work. The Jedi combine some spiritual things with knowledge, and expanding their minds to be able to perceive the world around them, but you could, in the SW universe, prove the force exists through science. There were machines that used the force, and detected it.

There is no reason it should be different in our world. We should be willing to admit we do not know what the force is, instead of being wishy-washy and saying that it's something that is individual to each person, because it isn't. If something exists outside of yourself, then it has its own characteristics and properties that make it an objectively separate thing. It may be perceived differently by different people, but it does not actually change just because they see it differently. It's similar to the old hindu parable of the blind men holding different parts of the elephant.

There is clearly some kind of energy that pervades everything. We do not know exactly what it is, or how to find it quite yet, but we will. Eventually, we will be able to see it, examine it, manipulate it. We do not know if it has consciousness, but based on what we know of consciousness, that requires a brain, so that is unlikely.

Why is it a bad thing to point all this out?

Ty wrote: If something exists, it is within the purview of science. If it does not exist, it is not.

I'm not sure that is entirely true, and I think that is over-estimating it, just as I explained. It's already been questioned by science itself if anything really exists at all, or if this is all just a simulation of something else beyond what we "think" is existing.

There is nothing in this universe which cannot be understood through the laws of mathematics, though we may not be able to understand it at this time.

Yet, the Force doesn't just include the universe as we know it. And thinking one truly "understands" something as such anyway, again and again, puts one into a cut-off box, discluding a great deal of things that others who do not feel the need to rely on science, find an even bigger picture in.

Jedi are not about mysticism. A recurring theme in all of the SW literature is they are perceived that way by those who are ignorant of the way things truly work. The Jedi combine some spiritual things with knowledge, and expanding their minds to be able to perceive the world around them, but you could, in the SW universe, prove the force exists through science. There were machines that used the force, and detected it.

I'm not sure you can speak for all of Jediism, as it is in fact a very personal path. It is about mysticism... and about science, and about metaphysics, and mythology, and everything else.... except, its not about any of those things exclusively, which is where things become misunderstood time and time again. You refer to the mythology of the SW universe quite a lot, with very very loose consideration for the reasons, exclusive to that world, that things were as they were, and that skews a lot of the similarities and differences between that myth and the real world.

There is no reason it should be different in our world. We should be willing to admit we do not know what the force is, instead of being wishy-washy and saying that it's something that is individual to each person, because it isn't. If something exists outside of yourself, then it has its own characteristics and properties that make it an objectively separate thing. It may be perceived differently by different people, but it does not actually change just because they see it differently. It's similar to the old hindu parable of the blind men holding different parts of the elephant.

Again, you are fine to speak for yourself, and your views, but do consider, in a world where someone has (or thinks they have) discovered an objective truth, they have just turned it into "just another thing" which has a beginning and an end, and in that case, separates it and compartmentalizes it from "the whole" of everything, thereby disproving itself out of being what it hoped it would be.

There is clearly some kind of energy that pervades everything. We do not know exactly what it is, or how to find it quite yet, but we will. Eventually, we will be able to see it, examine it, manipulate it. We do not know if it has consciousness, but based on what we know of consciousness, that requires a brain, so that is unlikely.

Indeed we do not know. And one of the things we teach here, is as you said, to not be wishy washy, as to be confident to say "I don't know", but even more importantly, to not feel such an urge and need to know either. Why? Because as soon as we think we "see it, examine it, manipulate it", it will not be it. It is not tangible. And even the thought of it being some separate, alien thing, is immediately limiting it down to "just another thing", like saying "god is everywhere... but really, he's a white-bearded old man sitting in the clouds"... It's just a myth.

Why is it a bad thing to point all this out?

It's not bad to point it out. Just understand that certain notions that you might think are fact, may, contrary to what you are used to thinking and how you are used to thinking, be just as much myth, and unfounded, as any supernatural notion in the Bible.

Science is one kind of knowing providing a unique explanation or account regarding things, causes or events. What science knows has changed over time. The applications of scientific knowledge (i.e. technology) has influenced and affected human beings. Ethics is another kind of knowing; one that discusses (among other things) the impact of science on human beings. Philosophy and religion also are kinds of knowing each with their own particular way of giving explanations and accounts. My Jediism is syncretic; a blending of each.

Ty wrote: There is clearly some kind of energy that pervades everything. We do not know exactly what it is, or how to find it quite yet, but we will. Eventually, we will be able to see it, examine it, manipulate it. We do not know if it has consciousness, but based on what we know of consciousness, that requires a brain, so that is unlikely.

I believe that all life is connected and that we are an inseparable part of our environment, but my belief in this does not require there to be an 'energy'.

Taoism was aptly mentioned a few posts ago.

Fair enough, Akkarin.

This has, once again, gone a bit far afield from the general idea, I think. I'm not out to get anyone to think the way I do, but I do think that there should be a bit of a foundation in science somewhere in the IP.
At the end of the day, I think that the IP should have some of the same information as the Library, though the Library itself is far from complete.


Perhaps find a few crucial texts/videos in each category, and have people go through them in the IP?
From what I understand, after all, the IP is supposed to be a sort of sampling of the Jedi religion, and is supposed to help people learn on their own, help people think, and help people become able to find answers for any spiritual questions they have on their own, while preparing them to be able to interact with a guide (their master) along the way.


On another note, is there a librarian? How do you go about suggesting library texts?

There is nothing in this universe which cannot be understood through the laws of mathematics, though we may not be able to understand it at this time.

I think the same was (and still is) said of God by some people? "There is nothing in this universe which is not understood by god, though we not may not be able to understand it ourselves at this time."

Ty- You seem like a pretty intelligent guy and whatever happens (whether the McTaggart book gets moved off the site or replaced or whatever) please remember you've connected with alot of people here with your thoughts, and I for one would like to thank you for your efforts and time in this conversation and look forward to other contributions from you. I believe very few contest and are against you and the idea that the McTaggart book is *not* strictly accurate or scientific. (Most people would say the same of Star Wars no?) A fair number agree that it shouldn't be a part of the IP. And yet some still feel as if there is still a lesson within it for varying reasons and it may be that it stays as it is for whatever reason.. If that's the case I'd like to ask- Will you still stay? Or will you be rigid and refuse to continue learning (and perhaps teaching) on this site because of one thing? No religion or site is perfect to everyone.
But I do hope you are enjoying being here and look forward to seeing you around,

(Something else I thought- I wonder if the more you push, the more people push back.. I think if one does things gently and patiently the more likely things will come around to their favour..)

Good luck!

I hope it doesn't come across like I'm trying to push, as I'm simply trying to explain how I feel. Thus far this has been a wonderful discussion, though my last post was trying to move it back on topic a bit.

I will certainly stay, because the Doctrine resonates with me greatly, and at the end of the day, isn't that what is most important? The IP is meant to help you relate to it.

"It" does not have consciousness. "It" is consciousness. Our consciousness arises from it and then observes the patterns created by it as the physical universe around us. "It" is neither separate nor similar, but all.

Ty wrote: On another note, is there a librarian? How do you go about suggesting library texts?

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/faq#OfficesLibrarian

(It's me)

Any suggestions should come in the form of actual links/files I can use, I don't have time hunting material down

I'm aware of the state of the library, I need to remind Proteus about a permissions thing which will let me continue work on it, but that's another topic.

jasonwilkins wrote: "It" does not have consciousness. "It" is consciousness. Our consciousness arises from it and then observes the patterns created by it as the physical universe around us. "It" is neither separate nor similar, but all.

I think both of our statements fall into the realm of what is debatable, and is personal for each person here.

Akkarin wrote:

Ty wrote: On another note, is there a librarian? How do you go about suggesting library texts?

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/faq#OfficesLibrarian

(It's me)

Any suggestions should come in the form of actual links/files I can use, I don't have time hunting material down

I'm aware of the state of the library, I need to remind Proteus about a permissions thing which will let me continue work on it, but that's another topic.

Awesome.
So, you don't use any new material in the library, generally? Only stuff with expired copyright, or that is freely available online?

If you close your eyes and imagine two people discussing and debating whether they exist or not, do they in fact exist as individual beings or are they simply manifestations of your own consciousness? The universe is the same. It must be for consciousness to even exist. This is science. "Know" thyself.

That didn't make an ounce of sense to me, but I'd be happy to discuss it elsewhere later on down the line.

Whenever you're ready, I'd love to!