God of Love, God of Justice

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07 Mar 2015 16:35 #183402 by
Sometime between 18-22 I discovered this video, I think one of my sister's shared it with me.



This idea sustained me for a long time, it was particularly therapeutic to think of God as an all-loving cuddly Pooh-bear-type in that period of my life because I was beginning to see the threads of my ultra-conservative, fundamentalist, Pentacostal (the dancing, speaking in tongues-type) upbringing coming apart. I was starting to see people's realities that didn't track well with what I been raised to believe.

Isaiah 56 of the English Standard Version (ESV) says that anyone who keeps the Sabbath and keep the covenant of the Lord will be saved, particularly addressing the foreigners and eunuchs.

Malachi 3:5 of the ESV says that the sins that would bring imminent destruction upon Israel were sorcery, adultery, liars (those who swear falsely); oppressors of the workers, widows, and orphans.

And, in tying that to the New Testament, lest anyone try to say that was an Old Testament thing:

James 1:27 of the ESV says that a pure and undefiled religion before God is to take care orphans and Widows, and to keep yourself unstained by the world.

Matthew 25:36-40 of the ESV says that whoever feeds the hungry, gives drink to the thirsty, clothes the naked, and visits the prisoner has also done these things to the Lord.

From these and many other passages (the entire book of Malachi and Hosea is great for this) I came to see God not so much a God of love, though I would say They are still a God of love, but a God of Eternal Justice.

And even though I walked away from Christianity, studying the Qur'an has been such an incredible experience to see a continuity of Allah's desire for justice is present in Qur'anic Scripture. The idea of Allah as the Omniscient Accountant, the one who knows all, sees all, and yet tempers Their wrath with an open invitation to follow Allah. Sura 1:1 which is also the Basmala says, "In the name, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful". Later in the same sura, Sura 1:4 , Allah is also the Master of Judgment Day.

Anyway, I think I've dropped enough of seed to start a discussion.

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07 Mar 2015 18:51 - 07 Mar 2015 18:54 #183407 by OB1Shinobi
i like the hindu idea of brahma vishinu and shiva

a way of making these characters translatable to the abrahamic disciplines might be to say we ought to have reverence for gods creation

respect for the inherent sustainability and self regulation and preservation of the overal natural systems he created

and the proccess of physiological mortality which we entered into as a result of our choice to claim knowledge of good and evil

death and predation are an inherent part of the system he created

when we approach the topic of justice i cant help but make another correlation between the two faiths
by indicating what i see as a paralell between mammon and maya

maya being simply a more sophisticated articulation of the same essential phenomena imo

from this perspective
and from the christian perspective of human being as essentially seperated from god
as a natural condition of being human,

as far as JUSTICE is concerned i see this as being something which a mature psychology understands as being the standard by which i/we will be judged by god,

but not so much the standard by which they/we/i should, or even CAN, judge or measure others

basically
i see it as my responsibility to act in a just fashion
and i see it as gods responsibility to determine who is just and who is not

also i do not consider christianity to be an abrahamic religion

i see it as the solution to the abrahamic worldview

the concept of salvation is the mechanism by which "we" are freed from the obligatory heaviness of all the rules and conditions and rituals an atonement ect ect

once the sacrafice is accepted the result is true freedom

there is no way to fail at that point
we can walk through hell and even play with the devil but we will never be corrupted or wholly consumed by it

redemption basically gives us a free pass to make mistakes and to build our lives how we want as well as giving us the power to achieve the impossible

this by its very nature means that we will probably get carried away from time to time because salvation does not imo give us immunity from foolishness

but rather leg room so to speak so that we can be fearless in playing our part and finding our wings and when we err its ok, just keep going because everything you do is empowered and sanctified even if youre doing it "wrong"

so for this reason also the idea of justice is something i feel is a personal relationship with god between each of us as individuals and not so much as standards to apply to others

its ok for us to say "dont pee in the drinking water"
but its not ok for us to say "dont pee"

People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2015 18:54 by OB1Shinobi.

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07 Mar 2015 21:14 - 07 Mar 2015 21:31 #183414 by steamboat28

Jamie Stick wrote: (the dancing, speaking in tongues-type)

You rang? ;)

Malachi 3:5 of the ESV says that the sins that would bring imminent destruction upon Israel were sorcery, adultery, liars (those who swear falsely); oppressors of the workers, widows, and orphans.

The translation of this word is, and has been for many centuries, up in the air.

And even though I walked away from Christianity, studying the Qur'an has been such an incredible experience to see a continuity of Allah's desire for justice is present in Qur'anic Scripture.


I don't see how the differentiation between "God of Love" and "God of Justice" comes in; justice is benevolence. That said, there's a lot about Christian theology that comes into question if you focus solely on the latter at the expense of the former.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2015 21:31 by steamboat28.
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07 Mar 2015 21:19 #183416 by steamboat28

OB1Shinobi wrote: death and predation are an inherent part of the system he created
[hr]
from the christian perspective of human being as essentially seperated from god
as a natural condition of being human

These statements are unsupported by Christian scripture. That's not to say they aren't fact, it's just that Christian scripture does not, in any way, support these two statements.

also i do not consider christianity to be an abrahamic religion

i see it as the solution to the abrahamic worldview

...pardon?
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07 Mar 2015 22:50 - 07 Mar 2015 23:22 #183433 by
Replied by on topic God of Love, God of Justice

steamboat28 wrote: The translation of this word is, and has been for many centuries, up in the air.


You don't need to tell me twice. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that the usage of the word sorcery has a troubled past.

steamboat28 wrote: I don't see how the differentiation between "God of Love" and "God of Justice" comes in; justice is benevolence. That said, there's a lot about Christian theology that comes into question if you focus solely on the latter at the expense of the former.


I don't really see the problem there, but I make the distinction because the Qur'an doesn't really talk about God's love for humanity. God is many things, but loving (at least in the sense that Christians think of it) is not one that comes up. I will admit that there may be undertones of God's love for humanity in the Arabic that I'm unaware of since I am reading it secondhand, but then again I also do that with the Bible. What I wanted to bring out and open up for discussion is the idea that justice is theme common to all three conceptions of who God is: the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Qur'an.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2015 23:22 by .

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07 Mar 2015 22:59 - 07 Mar 2015 23:03 #183435 by OB1Shinobi
contemporary christian thought is that man is born into sin and that our inherent nature is sinful

to me that is what i mean when i say "seperate from god as condition of being human"

frogs predator bugs
snakes predator frogs
birds predator snakes
cats predator birds
man predator cats
bugs predator man

and the lion king sings


according to the explanation of the gospel that i was given

jesus sets you free

once youre free youre free

the masterdoesnt get to reclaim you once youve been set free, even if he doesnt like what you do with the freedom

now that jesus has redeemed you its ok to go out and live your life

you dont even have to think about jesus anymore if you dont want to

the deals done and he keeps his part of the bargain

now drop all that human silliness and go be the perfect empowered being you were meant to be

People are complicated.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2015 23:03 by OB1Shinobi.

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07 Mar 2015 23:47 #183444 by Gisteron
Which, with all due respect, OB, is not what the Bible says nor how the majority of Christian doctrines understand it, afaik. All (but one) sin can be forgiven according to scripture, yet nowhere does it say that they all are, and the entire idea of damnation, or more specifically eternal agony after death only came with the New Testament wherein it is very clear that to trust in the saviour is the least you have to do (though it may not be quite enough, depending on where you read). The book doesn't just say that Jesus came, saved us all, and so now we can get away with anything including unbelief. It does say the opposite.

Jamie, FYI, the Qur'an does call Allah 'The Loving'. In fact, that is one of the 99 Names of God. The word is Al-Wadud and is found in the Hud and Al-Buruj Surahs. Setting aside the narratives and countless warnings against his wrath, there are other names that suggest properties of a more affectionate kind and relationship with us, such as Al-Rahman, Al-Latif, Al-Wali and Al-Ra'uf.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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08 Mar 2015 02:37 - 08 Mar 2015 02:37 #183463 by OB1Shinobi
many christians are confused about their own religion

they say salvation cant be bought or earned it can only be accepted through jesus and then they say you have to buy it and earn it with obedience and righteousness

they say jesus is our role model and then that we can never be like him because he was fundamentally different from us

jesus said something about us being gods and no one wants to talk about it

jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within

jesus said "greater works that these will you do in my name"

jesus said if you dont give up and leave behind everything you own to follow me then you cannot be my disciple

jesus said
many will say "HEY JESUS IT ME HOMIE YA BEST BUD MR RIGHTEOUS WHADDUP BRODUDEMAN AINT WE RIHTEOUS AND WISE?"
and i will say "dude who the heaven are you? i dont know you man back off or im gonna tell my dad"
or something like that

ive read the bible and ive listened to a lot of christians say a lot of things
and what i have decided is that most of the christians that tried to teach me the truth didnt even know what their own religion said was true

my interpretation is the best interpretation ive ever heard and my interpretation isnt even mine its gods
he told me so when i asked him

he also told me not to listen to these goofballs down here

he said that was their problem
theyre listening to each other and not to him

i said "yeah thats why i asked you, thanks god!"

People are complicated.
Last edit: 08 Mar 2015 02:37 by OB1Shinobi.

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08 Mar 2015 03:27 #183467 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic God of Love, God of Justice
For fun open the Bible and Quran in text format and select and replace the key titles for God, Lord etc into feminine titles. The whole things reads so much more sensible in a 'mother' approach then the father approach. The kewl thing about it then is that all the warmongering destructive and isolationist parts seem to stand out a little more as foreign (and irrelevant) from the positive general vibe which seems to be the basis of Abrahamic religions - which would otherwise fit in as language of the times and become absorbed by radical interpretations. So in that regard I'd see God not as an old white dude, but more a motherly/feminine or gender neutral manifestation of pure love. I suppose I could say instead 'parental' but the mother does have a more intimate relationship with creation by gestation, birth and breastfeeding which to me can translate more easily across the range of spiritual association, experience and refulgence.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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08 Mar 2015 03:40 #183468 by OB1Shinobi
^
god told me to tell you that he just told us thats hes also a she

is it bad to wonder which locker room god uses?

People are complicated.
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