Attention council members (suggestions from those you lead)

dwagoonie wrote: I only have a moment presently, but I would like to weigh in on what I find bothersome. If you look at a normal every day organization, you have a person in charge of the different functions. You do not see 1 person holding several functions. That is too much for any one person. Especially when they have a life outside of the organization to handle as well. If a position has been unmanned for a certain amount of time, it should be refilled by someone who is interested in it and not pushed onto someone who already has their hands full. There is no glory in accumulated positions until there's nothing left for anyone else.

In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in....that all said, longevity is preferred because it shows true commitment...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?

"In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again"

... perhaps before someone actually takes on the position, they get a view of what they will be doing. Before they decide, they get a list of what is expected of them. They get an idea how much time is put into it. Then if they feel they can't hold that much responsibility, you see who else is interested and do the same with them. Perhaps more than one person to fulfil that position so it isn't all on one person.

~*~
"...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in"

... You have knights. You have some who care about TOJO. Maybe instead of giving someone a position, you can delegate the tasks to those willing to take them as assistants to that position. I have no idea about 'hate mail' but I do know that damage control can be limited to listening to the person sending them only a few time and trying to resolve the issue, then letting them go.

~*~
"...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?"

... I keep hearing "blaming us". It is the higher ranked individuals who call the shots, is it not? There is no 'blame' there, that is you doing what you can with what you have and needing to think outside the box for better solutions. Don't let people rush through so fast. Remind people this is a temple and not a competitive race rushing to sit in the throne (this is from my own assumption based on what you are saying). Delegate to assistants in the positions. Knights of good standing and even apprentices of good standing can assist with the small stuff which would keep them excited without burning anyone out. If an individual holding a position that decides how the temple runs gets overwhelmed, that is what assistants are for. That is where small stuff can be shuffled down to those in good standing and willing to help. It would also give others an idea of what all goes into this site and how it is run on a daily basis. Knowing leads to understanding. Yes?

Just some ideas that came to mind while writing this. I'm sure there are a ton of other options that would help you to help us. Structure doesn't have to rely on the few holding up the building.

ren wrote: I don't see how ryujin's answer can be understood to mean there are no opportunities for 'employment'. Everyone who has an office now used to not have one.

Ideas are always given time to be correctly implemented, have different people give it a shot. Some have been failing for years now. It's also good to know when to quit.

I politely disagree. RyuJins comments make it sound like you must be within the temples inner circle in order to be considered for an office. I have yet to receive a clear yes or no, but instead am receiving long winded answers that happen to mention the higher ups get all the blame.

Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

Do you really believe we haven't tried any of those ideas before?

There was a span in which the council was completely hands off of all the offices...we left it to the knights to run totjo...from get go it became chaos as the knights began to experience what the council had previously...most of those knights left and never returned...then the council got blamed for "not being there"...when previously the council was blamed for being "too over bearing"...whether we engage fully, partially, or not at all, we get blamed for something that some faction perceived as being done wrong.

There is no "inner circle", if one is capable and willing then they may be considered for a position...

In any setting a new hire is not immediately given all the keys...they have to earn them and prove responsible and loyal enough...loyal as in they're not going to make a mess of things and run...we have had that happen seemingly every other year....

Even the most trusted hard-wearing office holders can burn out. They are difficult to replace. No amount of fresh ideas and goodwill can make it happen. They have to be good at it. Most new blood burns out at the first 'realize you can't please everyone' stage... And there are many more stages after.

So far, this is what this thread has produced …

Questions and concerns:
1. Several members would like a thread here created by a council member that updates the temple as to what things are being voted on, when they will be voted on, and if the vote passed or not.
>>> Not addressed: Can there be transparency for members to at least know what’s going on and what decisions there are which will affect them?

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement.
>>> Not addressed: Do you feel there is inconsistency regarding this?

3. Several people want to inquire as to why there are councilors and people holding other temple offices, who have not been at the temple in months and in some cases over a year. And on the same note, there are wonderful knights and councilors here who hold multiple positions (as many as 4) who do a fantastic job, but on the same hand, they also block others from becoming more involved with the temple.
>>> Addressed: but not in a way that this question was intended to be addressed. How can this be handled better so that those who are holding these positions are not overwhelmed? WHAT has been done in the past that you feel failed, and why do you feel it would fail now?

4. Almost everyone has mentioned either knight Edan or Master Rosalyn as being very deserving of some form of official recognition for all of their amazing work they do. I personally am of the opinion that with out these two wonderful women, our temple would have been in shambles months ago if not for their continued capacity to go above and beyond.
>>> Addressed: and yes, they are fantastic with what they do

5. There are system issues that have been present for working on almost a year now such as member photo albums still do not show up for most of our users.
>>> Addressed by Br John with needing people who can do this. Thank you

6. There have also been several requests for updates from the knights corps as to when the new ip might be ready, as well as when the Jedi service corps will become a thing.
>>> Not addressed: I am interested in this as well. Any idea?

The purpose of this thread is not for council members to feel attacked or threatened, but my way of communicating the request of those below the rank of knight (which is 99 percent of the temple).
>>> Addressed with “we are always blamed” as the answer and “we did that once and instead of maintaining it to flush out those who can’t, we gave up”. What has been tried in the past, please? When listed - either within the council or public, doesn’t matter - you can discuss why they did or did not work. What do you feel would encourage loyalty and longevity? What goes wrong when people decide to up and leave every 2 years or so? What makes people stay?

One thing I would like to address for the moment is this.

Please do not think that this is not seriously being discussed nor will the answers to each question be done in 24 hours. I, like others, have full-time jobs, Management such as mine, etc, IRL, as to where I will not spam out an answer to anyone without being serious minded or sincere in a response. I ask that, yes, reply or give thoughts but patience is not being applied either. This can not and should not be looked at as an overnight address...

Let’s show some patience as Jedi should be to answer things....

First off...

I'm very THANKFUL for all of the responses from the council. I'm speaking for myself but it's always nice to hear from you. I'm glad to see such quick responses and I think it's good because it shows that there may be more of a perception issue. I think we, as a community, would benefit from additional transparency (not necessarily full transparency but maybe something like open and closed sessions) but we also need to consider other factors as well.

Secondly...

There are 2 sides to every story. Being able to see both sides is wisdom. I understand that transparency can have downsides as well as apply pressure to vote less on your own belief and opinion and more to what others may want or expect. I think nations have the same problems. We don't need to reinvent the wheel but rather learn from what works and what doesn't around the world.

On one hand, a lack of transparency mixed with the feeling of having no direct influence, will make a government look more like a dictatorship (Even if there's more than one dictator). However, on the other hand, too much influence from too many people could create chaos, and then people could say "oh why did you listen to person C's ideas and not person B or A?"

In some places, if you have enough $$$ people will listen. That is naturally a bad system. No one wants it to look like a totalitarian regime or an oligarchy, but considerations have to be made in order to protect the core identity of the Temple.

So while there are ways for things to work or not work either way it goes, I think the community can help come up with a balanced approach; and it seems like this was a good first step, just offering anonymous ideas. People can voice their thoughts but #1... the council doesn't have to do anything and #2 any idea that actually goes before the council, shouldn't be just an idea but something that has been developed into a plan so that the council isn't expected to flesh an idea out and come up with a plan that they also have no one to execute it.

Maybe there should be an online form/application process, where new ideas need to be sponsored and co-sponsored, and receive a local vote (like a survey) and then the sponsors and co-sponsors can form a team around the idea's author, to create the plan, not just of how it would work, but who would be in charge, what resources it would require, etc.

As much as people might like to have a higher degree of "access" it is also limitations and restrictions that make that same "access" more viable. So while the Council entertains these suggestions I do think we, as a community, need to work on better ways to advance an idea and evolve it into something better for the council to consider.

So maybe if there's 1 "open door" session each month or even one per quarter... And then all the other sessions can be closed door sessions. That might be a more balanced solution.

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement. An example being that the rules say you advance after items a,b, and c are complete, but when those things are checked off, the temple has been disregarding those rules as written and holding people from promotion based on a single councilors opinion.

I can see both sides of this. It's fictional but I think we would be wise to consider how Anakin was treated by the council. On one hand, the council should be voting by a majority so if a single councilor's opinion is able to convince a majority then there should be no issue.

We have to consider that knight is a position of reproduction. You want to produce better knights so that there is a good standard of quality in what TOTJO, as a whole, is producing. We don't want everyone out there saying "I'm a Jedi Knight" to the point where the title becomes meaningless.

Therefore, people who might be a little impatient do need to understand what it is that they are still lacking and given more time to work on it. And that shouldn't be a fully transparent thing; going back to question 1. Because the only people who need to know is that nominee and their TM.

Rules are rules. But we also have training masters. This is a sacred one-on-one relationship ship that uses the rules as a standard baseline but ultimately, this system of masters and apprentices is much better because everyone gets the benefit of personalized training and progression. What other religion can say that? And so if the TM says they have more to teach that person then that's what it should be. If they say "I have no more to teach" then that's also what it should be. If they say "You have much to learn but I have no more to teach." then, although that is unfortunate, it's also necessary as well. Because again... these titles that some people want so badly... they need to mean something. And the councils is the last line of defense in protecting that meaning.

Neaj Pa Bol wrote: One thing I would like to address for the moment is this.

Please do not think that this is not seriously being discussed nor will the answers to each question be done in 24 hours. I, like others, have full-time jobs, Management such as mine, etc, IRL, as to where I will not spam out an answer to anyone without being serious minded or sincere in a response. I ask that, yes, reply or give thoughts but patience is not being applied either. This can not and should not be looked at as an overnight address...

Let’s show some patience as Jedi should be to answer things....

This is good to know. It's much easier to have patience, for me at least, when I know that something is being addressed. As someone with no access to the upper forums, this is the only place I had any idea these concerns were being discussed. Maybe this goes along with transparency conversation; it would have been good to have some kind of official "this has been seen and is on our agenda, thank you" sort of thing.

Simple answer, we have given many members opportunities to be involved...none of them are here any longer...those of us on the council and holding offices are the few that have managed to stay around...we may or may not be as active in the forums as those with less responsibility, but we are always watching things...I have been here 12 years myself...only 2 other active members have been here longer (maybe 3)...everything being brought up now, has been brought up before and tried before and failed before.

This was a great answer. In many cases, just hearing "we tried that" is very valuable for the people being led.

If I may, let's put it into the same terms as a regular job.

Although many jobs can be done by monkeys, many other jobs require special skills or knowledge. Part of the requirements should be loyalty to the Temple. How many months has this person been here? Have they served in other capacities before? Is there a track record?

Perhaps, somewhat of a middle ground could be that every central position is made by appointment and then that person has to list open spots where anyone can then serve in that department in the capacity of the job/volunteer posting. That person then gets credit for each month in that job and therefore the supervising central position can issue a recommendation/nomination for that person to be considered for a future appointment.

Strong organizations are hierarchies. If the pathway to the top is too easy/quick then the organization, as a whole, will be diluted to the point of nonexistence.

In the United States, every new administration (potentially every 4 years) looks at each appointed position and often times keeps the person in charge but can replace that person with a new appointment. The new appointment can open those dept positions back up or evaluate people for a time before deciding to keep them.

The council is like an administration. While it is natural for those in a position of ultimate responsibility to accept some blame, less blame will go around as long as everyone agrees on the system itself (like the US constitution). It's not just a statement who we are but how we run things. And every healthy system needs checks and balances.

I think Initiates should have jobs and/or tasks they can do and I'm very interested in what the Service Corp can do in this regard. But if the initiates have things they can do in order to prove themselves, then it would become a much easier decision when it comes to appointments and who can take on more. With that said, I see things getting better and that progress is all that matters as Rome wasn't built in a day.

So I think the answer to this question is that there must be quality over quantity. Our main focus has been on advancing Jedi knowledge, wisdom, and understanding; the mind of a Jedi. The heart of a Jedi is something everyone must find within. At the same time, I think the might of a Jedi, found in service, is something we should start to solidify and cultivate. And THEN we can create an organizational pathway to higher levels of service that will be fair and keep more people engaged without the same revolving door.

This post was addressed to the Council, and I assume it was posted here so that the people who contributed to it would see and know that their concerns have been taken to the Council by Zero as he said he would. I'm confused as to why individual Councilors are addressing the concerns already, instead of us hearing from the Council as a whole. I would have thought the process would be more

-- Response 1: "Hi, I'm on the Council. I see this post. I'll bring it to the attention of the rest of the Council. Please be patient. Thank you."
-- Response 2 (eventually, when appropriate): "Hi, I'm a Councilor speaking on behalf of the Council. This post is now on our agenda. Thank you to all who contributed ideas for consideration. We will keep you updated. Please be patient with the process as we are all volunteers with busy lives."

If these comments and concerns and questions from Councilors are on behalf of the Council, it would be beneficial to know that. Something like "The Council is talking about xyz and we'd like further input. Here are our concerns and thoughts thus far. Please let us know what you think so we can consider the thoughts of temple members in our deliberations." If that isn't the case, if this is individuals speaking without the official backing of the body of the Council, then I think that should be made clear as well. Right now it feels like it could go either way and it's confusing to me. It's creating the cyclic and unproductive back and forth that's already been brought up as a known issue.

Regarding blame: it does stink that leaders are generally left holding the blame for things that go wrong. This seems to be the case in most any organization. It can't feel nice, and I wish the Council didn't experience it. On the other hand, it can't be taken personally and it can't be held on to. It's an unfortunate pitfall of being in a leadership position among humans and bitterness around it doesn't serve anyone. The idea of blame as it's been mentioned in this thread seems to have the weight of bitterness behind it. I hope there's a way we as a temple can move on from that.

RyuJin wrote: In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in....that all said, longevity is preferred because it shows true commitment...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?

Unfortunately, I can imagine. And this answer makes perfect sense. I think people need positions in which they can serve but if they're new or even older initiates, they shouldn't be "head of ____". But being on a team? Yes, that can be mutually beneficial. They can contribute a talent, knowledge, or skill, without being overwhelmed by any burden of being responsible for a whole dept. I also see this improving and hopefully, with a new newsletter, others will see it as well

I do think that "practicing" one's religion is important because it makes it more real to the person. Personal practice is great and is the cornerstone of Jediism. But I also think that if we can develop some additional corporate practices that showcase how we work in teams, how we can go out and do "missions", and serve in different capacities, I think we'll see that people need that too. And that it fulfills a need to feel more a part of something greater. And that will make some people stick around longer and that support for people actually appointed may help them stay longer too because they can delegate tasks more.

Delegation is key but you also have to trust the people you're delegating to.

Br. John wrote: Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

I would like to be on the Web team in an assistant position to Ren. If we get 2 or 3 such assistants we can track a central queue of website issues and each person can tackle one until completion.

ZealotX wrote:

Br. John wrote: Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

I would like to be on the Web team in an assistant position to Ren. If we get 2 or 3 such assistants we can track a central queue of website issues and each person can tackle one until completion.

What is your experience with Linux web servers and with Joomla?

Br. John wrote: Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

I should have said in this post that I will answer each question separately. I'll deal with them one at a time. The first issue is about persons still listed as holding positions when they have not been here for some time, and about open positions. Nobody has responded about positions held by absent persons. You're welcome to PM me if you don't want to post about that.

We have asked one Knight about being System Administrator (and fixing the site) and one member has volunteered to be an assistant.

4. Almost everyone has mentioned either knight Edan or Master Rosalyn as being very deserving of some form of official recognition for all of their amazing work they do.

Thank you very much for the comments. However I would like to say that every member of Council is an active participant. Ros' and my work is visible by its nature, but there is nobody serving on Council right now who is not working. We are always in contact with each other, always aware of what is going on, nothing goes by without the notice of all of us. When I posted recently that anyone can come to any Councillor for support I meant it, we are all available.

Is there a list of open positions anywhere? A link would be awesome if there is; I'm not finding it.

And if there's not, could there be?

It's tough to consider volunteering when I don't know what's needed.

There will be, we are putting one together and we'll advertise as soon as we have a complete list