Attention council members (suggestions from those you lead)

About a week ago I was approached by a couple of our lower ranking members about if there was a way to contact council with suggestions, complaints, or comments and they key was they wanted to do it anonymously. They had fears of retribution’s and promotions being held back if they brought there issues forward. In light of there request I created a post and offered to post this thread anomously, soo here goes. Most of these were repeated by several different members.

1. Several members would like a thread here created by a council member that updates the temple as to what things are being voted on, when they will be voted on, and if the vote passed or not. This would provide transparency that the membership request without allowing them access to council discussions. In therory, this would be a locked thread so that no one could comment on it.

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement. An example being that the rules say you advance after items a,b, and c are complete, but when those things are checked off, the temple has been disregarding those rules as written and holding people from promotion based on a single councilors opinion.

3. Several people want to inquire as to why there are councilors and people holding other temple offices, who have not been at the temple in months and in some cases over a year. It blocks others (and there are several) from becoming more involved with the temple. And on the same note, there are wonderful knights and councilors here who hold multiple positions (as many as 4) who do a fantastic job, but on the same hand, they also block others from becoming more involved with the temple.

4. Almost everyone has mentioned either knight Edan or Master Rosalyn as being very deserving of some form of official recognition for all of their amazing work they do. I personally am of the opinion that with out these two wonderful women, our temple would have been in shambles months ago if not for their continued capacity to go above and beyond.

5. There are system issues that have been present for working on almost a year now such as member photo albums still do not show up for most of our users.

6. There have also been several request for updates from the knights corps as to when the new ip might be ready, as well as when the Jedi service corps will become a thing. I personally explained to these members that there is no way at this point that we could provide an exact date for either, but mabye we could create a thread to post regular updates as they happen.

The purpose of this thread is not for council members to feel attacked or threatened, but my way of communicating the request of those below the rank of knight (which is 99 percent of the temple). The flip side of that coin is that this isn’t a to do list for the council. Temple leadership will make all decisions as to what, if any, of these issues they will address, and how they will do so.

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement. An example being that the rules say you advance after items a,b, and c are complete, but when those things are checked off, the temple has been disregarding those rules as written and holding people from promotion based on a single councilors opinion.

Could you clarify what rank progression we are talking about and how exactly did it fail?

Zero wrote: About a week ago I was approached by a couple of our lower ranking members about if there was a way to contact council with suggestions, complaints, or comments and they key was they wanted to do it anonymously. They had fears of retribution’s and promotions being held back if they brought there issues forward. In light of there request I created a post and offered to post this thread anomously, soo here goes. Most of these were repeated by several different members.

1. Several members would like a thread here created by a council member that updates the temple as to what things are being voted on, when they will be voted on, and if the vote passed or not. This would provide transparency that the membership request without allowing them access to council discussions. In therory, this would be a locked thread so that no one could comment on it.

We used to do this, it caused as many issues if not more as it supposedly abated...people got mad that they couldn't voice their thoughts on things, and when we allowed them to voice their thoughts it turned into a total fiasco

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement. An example being that the rules say you advance after items a,b, and c are complete, but when those things are checked off, the temple has been disregarding those rules as written and holding people from promotion based on a single councilors opinion.

Typically if a promotion has been withheld it is because even though certain things have been done, the individual in question may be lacking in something... sometimes that is often one of the most crucial things to a Jedi....patience

3. Several people want to inquire as to why there are councilors and people holding other temple offices, who have not been at the temple in months and in some cases over a year. It blocks others (and there are several) from becoming more involved with the temple. And on the same note, there are wonderful knights and councilors here who hold multiple positions (as many as 4) who do a fantastic job, but on the same hand, they also block others from becoming more involved with the temple.

Simple answer, we have given many members opportunities to be involved...none of them are here any longer...those of us on the council and holding offices are the few that have managed to stay around...we may or may not be as active in the forums as those with less responsibility, but we are always watching things...I have been here 12 years myself...only 2 other active members have been here longer (maybe 3)...everything being brought up now, has been brought up before and tried before and failed before.

4. Almost everyone has mentioned either knight Edan or Master Rosalyn as being very deserving of some form of official recognition for all of their amazing work they do. I personally am of the opinion that with out these two wonderful women, our temple would have been in shambles months ago if not for their continued capacity to go above and beyond.

Ah, yes both of these wonderful Ladies have in fact had official recognition and have discarded it for their own reasons, they are not as caught up in titles or rank as some are

5. There are system issues that have been present for working on almost a year now such as member photo albums still do not show up for most of our users.

There has always been an issue of some sort that is constantly being worked on behind the scenes, we update the site and redo it constantly, but we can't always fix everything

6. There have also been several request for updates from the knights corps as to when the new ip might be ready, as well as when the Jedi service corps will become a thing. I personally explained to these members that there is no way at this point that we could provide an exact date for either, but mabye we could create a thread to post regular updates as they happen.

We have been trying to find out about this as well...

The purpose of this thread is not for council members to feel attacked or threatened, but my way of communicating the request of those below the rank of knight (which is 99 percent of the temple). The flip side of that coin is that this isn’t a to do list for the council. Temple leadership will make all decisions as to what, if any, of these issues they will address, and how they will do so.

Simple answer, we have given many members opportunities to be involved...none of them are here any longer...those of us on the council and holding offices are the few that have managed to stay around...we may or may not be as active in the forums as those with less responsibility, but we are always watching things...I have been here 12 years myself...only 2 other active members have been here longer (maybe 3)...everything being brought up now, has been brought up before and tried before and failed before.

Hello RyuJin. My name is Zeth, and I do not believe I've had the pleasure of speaking with you yet.

I am interested in one day pursuing an office here at the temple, but hearing you say that things have been brought to before and failed sounds like you are not open to new idea from new temple members, and I sincerely hope that is not true. Could you please clarify if there will be chances for members like myself to run for offices in the future?

Please and thank you.

We always hear things out, evaluate, and more often than not we allow things to move forward even when we have already seen the scenario play out the same repeatedly...then we bear the blame when things don't work out...we always hope that one of them pans out...

Zeth makes a good point. While I haven’t been here for 12 years, I have been here almost every day sence January 2018, and anytime I ask about getting more involved with the temple, I get the run around. You said you gave others opportunities and they are no longer here, that dosnt address the issue. I’m here, other knights are here regularly, plenty of apprentices are here regularly.......just because others left dosnt mean I will, and I’d hate to think that my abilities as a knight and a leader are being disregarded because of the actions of other knights that left.

If the photo albums can’t ever be fixed then why not remove them completely. People put up new photos all the time and they vanish the next day.

If promotions can be withheld for any reason, then why have a list of rules saying if you do this you get promoted? Why not add to the rules and say outright that any councilor can withhold your promotion for any reason?

We always hear things out, evaluate, and more often than not we allow things to move forward even when we have already seen the scenario play out the same repeatedly...then we bear the blame when things don't work out...we always hope that one of them pans out...

does this mean I can assume I will be allowed to be nominated for offices in the future, and potentially hold that office?

I only have a moment presently, but I would like to weigh in on what I find bothersome. If you look at a normal every day organization, you have a person in charge of the different functions. You do not see 1 person holding several functions. That is too much for any one person. Especially when they have a life outside of the organization to handle as well. If a position has been unmanned for a certain amount of time, it should be refilled by someone who is interested in it and not pushed onto someone who already has their hands full. There is no glory in accumulated positions until there's nothing left for anyone else.

It can be so frustrating to see what feels like the same ideas, the same tries, the same projects, start and be abandoned again and again. Especially of you feel like you're in a group getting blamed for them not working out. I definitely understand that. That's a definition of insanity after all, right? To do the same thing and expect different results?

The thing is... even if everything about a project plan looks exactly the same on paper, it's entirely different because there are different people involved. There are a lot of reasons a project may not be wise to try, but I hope that ideas won't be rejected solely because "we already tried that."

I don't see how ryujin's answer can be understood to mean there are no opportunities for 'employment'. Everyone who has an office now used to not have one.

Ideas are always given time to be correctly implemented, have different people give it a shot. Some have been failing for years now. It's also good to know when to quit.

dwagoonie wrote: I only have a moment presently, but I would like to weigh in on what I find bothersome. If you look at a normal every day organization, you have a person in charge of the different functions. You do not see 1 person holding several functions. That is too much for any one person. Especially when they have a life outside of the organization to handle as well. If a position has been unmanned for a certain amount of time, it should be refilled by someone who is interested in it and not pushed onto someone who already has their hands full. There is no glory in accumulated positions until there's nothing left for anyone else.

In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in....that all said, longevity is preferred because it shows true commitment...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?

"In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again"

... perhaps before someone actually takes on the position, they get a view of what they will be doing. Before they decide, they get a list of what is expected of them. They get an idea how much time is put into it. Then if they feel they can't hold that much responsibility, you see who else is interested and do the same with them. Perhaps more than one person to fulfil that position so it isn't all on one person.

~*~
"...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in"

... You have knights. You have some who care about TOJO. Maybe instead of giving someone a position, you can delegate the tasks to those willing to take them as assistants to that position. I have no idea about 'hate mail' but I do know that damage control can be limited to listening to the person sending them only a few time and trying to resolve the issue, then letting them go.

~*~
"...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?"

... I keep hearing "blaming us". It is the higher ranked individuals who call the shots, is it not? There is no 'blame' there, that is you doing what you can with what you have and needing to think outside the box for better solutions. Don't let people rush through so fast. Remind people this is a temple and not a competitive race rushing to sit in the throne (this is from my own assumption based on what you are saying). Delegate to assistants in the positions. Knights of good standing and even apprentices of good standing can assist with the small stuff which would keep them excited without burning anyone out. If an individual holding a position that decides how the temple runs gets overwhelmed, that is what assistants are for. That is where small stuff can be shuffled down to those in good standing and willing to help. It would also give others an idea of what all goes into this site and how it is run on a daily basis. Knowing leads to understanding. Yes?

Just some ideas that came to mind while writing this. I'm sure there are a ton of other options that would help you to help us. Structure doesn't have to rely on the few holding up the building.

ren wrote: I don't see how ryujin's answer can be understood to mean there are no opportunities for 'employment'. Everyone who has an office now used to not have one.

Ideas are always given time to be correctly implemented, have different people give it a shot. Some have been failing for years now. It's also good to know when to quit.

I politely disagree. RyuJins comments make it sound like you must be within the temples inner circle in order to be considered for an office. I have yet to receive a clear yes or no, but instead am receiving long winded answers that happen to mention the higher ups get all the blame.

Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

Do you really believe we haven't tried any of those ideas before?

There was a span in which the council was completely hands off of all the offices...we left it to the knights to run totjo...from get go it became chaos as the knights began to experience what the council had previously...most of those knights left and never returned...then the council got blamed for "not being there"...when previously the council was blamed for being "too over bearing"...whether we engage fully, partially, or not at all, we get blamed for something that some faction perceived as being done wrong.

There is no "inner circle", if one is capable and willing then they may be considered for a position...

In any setting a new hire is not immediately given all the keys...they have to earn them and prove responsible and loyal enough...loyal as in they're not going to make a mess of things and run...we have had that happen seemingly every other year....

Even the most trusted hard-wearing office holders can burn out. They are difficult to replace. No amount of fresh ideas and goodwill can make it happen. They have to be good at it. Most new blood burns out at the first 'realize you can't please everyone' stage... And there are many more stages after.

So far, this is what this thread has produced …

Questions and concerns:
1. Several members would like a thread here created by a council member that updates the temple as to what things are being voted on, when they will be voted on, and if the vote passed or not.
>>> Not addressed: Can there be transparency for members to at least know what’s going on and what decisions there are which will affect them?

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement.
>>> Not addressed: Do you feel there is inconsistency regarding this?

3. Several people want to inquire as to why there are councilors and people holding other temple offices, who have not been at the temple in months and in some cases over a year. And on the same note, there are wonderful knights and councilors here who hold multiple positions (as many as 4) who do a fantastic job, but on the same hand, they also block others from becoming more involved with the temple.
>>> Addressed: but not in a way that this question was intended to be addressed. How can this be handled better so that those who are holding these positions are not overwhelmed? WHAT has been done in the past that you feel failed, and why do you feel it would fail now?

4. Almost everyone has mentioned either knight Edan or Master Rosalyn as being very deserving of some form of official recognition for all of their amazing work they do. I personally am of the opinion that with out these two wonderful women, our temple would have been in shambles months ago if not for their continued capacity to go above and beyond.
>>> Addressed: and yes, they are fantastic with what they do

5. There are system issues that have been present for working on almost a year now such as member photo albums still do not show up for most of our users.
>>> Addressed by Br John with needing people who can do this. Thank you

6. There have also been several requests for updates from the knights corps as to when the new ip might be ready, as well as when the Jedi service corps will become a thing.
>>> Not addressed: I am interested in this as well. Any idea?

The purpose of this thread is not for council members to feel attacked or threatened, but my way of communicating the request of those below the rank of knight (which is 99 percent of the temple).
>>> Addressed with “we are always blamed” as the answer and “we did that once and instead of maintaining it to flush out those who can’t, we gave up”. What has been tried in the past, please? When listed - either within the council or public, doesn’t matter - you can discuss why they did or did not work. What do you feel would encourage loyalty and longevity? What goes wrong when people decide to up and leave every 2 years or so? What makes people stay?

One thing I would like to address for the moment is this.

Please do not think that this is not seriously being discussed nor will the answers to each question be done in 24 hours. I, like others, have full-time jobs, Management such as mine, etc, IRL, as to where I will not spam out an answer to anyone without being serious minded or sincere in a response. I ask that, yes, reply or give thoughts but patience is not being applied either. This can not and should not be looked at as an overnight address...

Let’s show some patience as Jedi should be to answer things....

First off...

I'm very THANKFUL for all of the responses from the council. I'm speaking for myself but it's always nice to hear from you. I'm glad to see such quick responses and I think it's good because it shows that there may be more of a perception issue. I think we, as a community, would benefit from additional transparency (not necessarily full transparency but maybe something like open and closed sessions) but we also need to consider other factors as well.

Secondly...

There are 2 sides to every story. Being able to see both sides is wisdom. I understand that transparency can have downsides as well as apply pressure to vote less on your own belief and opinion and more to what others may want or expect. I think nations have the same problems. We don't need to reinvent the wheel but rather learn from what works and what doesn't around the world.

On one hand, a lack of transparency mixed with the feeling of having no direct influence, will make a government look more like a dictatorship (Even if there's more than one dictator). However, on the other hand, too much influence from too many people could create chaos, and then people could say "oh why did you listen to person C's ideas and not person B or A?"

In some places, if you have enough $$$ people will listen. That is naturally a bad system. No one wants it to look like a totalitarian regime or an oligarchy, but considerations have to be made in order to protect the core identity of the Temple.

So while there are ways for things to work or not work either way it goes, I think the community can help come up with a balanced approach; and it seems like this was a good first step, just offering anonymous ideas. People can voice their thoughts but #1... the council doesn't have to do anything and #2 any idea that actually goes before the council, shouldn't be just an idea but something that has been developed into a plan so that the council isn't expected to flesh an idea out and come up with a plan that they also have no one to execute it.

Maybe there should be an online form/application process, where new ideas need to be sponsored and co-sponsored, and receive a local vote (like a survey) and then the sponsors and co-sponsors can form a team around the idea's author, to create the plan, not just of how it would work, but who would be in charge, what resources it would require, etc.

As much as people might like to have a higher degree of "access" it is also limitations and restrictions that make that same "access" more viable. So while the Council entertains these suggestions I do think we, as a community, need to work on better ways to advance an idea and evolve it into something better for the council to consider.

So maybe if there's 1 "open door" session each month or even one per quarter... And then all the other sessions can be closed door sessions. That might be a more balanced solution.

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement. An example being that the rules say you advance after items a,b, and c are complete, but when those things are checked off, the temple has been disregarding those rules as written and holding people from promotion based on a single councilors opinion.

I can see both sides of this. It's fictional but I think we would be wise to consider how Anakin was treated by the council. On one hand, the council should be voting by a majority so if a single councilor's opinion is able to convince a majority then there should be no issue.

We have to consider that knight is a position of reproduction. You want to produce better knights so that there is a good standard of quality in what TOTJO, as a whole, is producing. We don't want everyone out there saying "I'm a Jedi Knight" to the point where the title becomes meaningless.

Therefore, people who might be a little impatient do need to understand what it is that they are still lacking and given more time to work on it. And that shouldn't be a fully transparent thing; going back to question 1. Because the only people who need to know is that nominee and their TM.

Rules are rules. But we also have training masters. This is a sacred one-on-one relationship ship that uses the rules as a standard baseline but ultimately, this system of masters and apprentices is much better because everyone gets the benefit of personalized training and progression. What other religion can say that? And so if the TM says they have more to teach that person then that's what it should be. If they say "I have no more to teach" then that's also what it should be. If they say "You have much to learn but I have no more to teach." then, although that is unfortunate, it's also necessary as well. Because again... these titles that some people want so badly... they need to mean something. And the councils is the last line of defense in protecting that meaning.