IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE

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03 Mar 2014 19:24 #140247 by ren
Replied by ren on topic IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE
There are problems with acceptance though. Given a choice between tolerance and acceptance, what would you choose when faced with murderers, pedophiles, slavers, organ traffickers?

Tolerance gives you the opportunity to dislike but allow it to continue (agree to disagree). Acceptance implies lack of disapproval.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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03 Mar 2014 20:16 #140258 by Jestor
Replied by Jestor on topic IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE

Google wrote: tolerance: the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

Google wrote: acceptance:
-agreement with or belief in an idea, opinion, or explanation.
-willingness to tolerate a difficult or unpleasant situation.


Again, I think we are splitting hairs...

Although, judging by the thesaurus definition, I'd say tolerance was more what I.mean...;)






Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
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03 Mar 2014 20:23 #140259 by Wescli Wardest
Accepting things as they are does not mean laying down and letting it happen. (At least not to me) It means recognizing that things happen, all things; good, bad, normal, odd and being okay with the fact that some things are just out of our control. Accepting that it is the way it is and not filling ourselves with hate for the things we have difficulty tolerating or find morally wrong. It means saying, yes this happens and that person has done this thing. The person has committed an act that is in violation of a law or moral law and there will be reproductions for their actions. But the person themselves is not that act.

When faced with murderers, pedophiles, slavers, and organ traffickers I will accept that is what they do. They do not have the same moral beliefs that I do and this in turn means I am probably in a hostile situation I may have to defend myself or my friends and loved ones to get out of. I accept that and will take the necessary actions to insure the safety and wellbeing of those I am to protect.

I accept the individual for what they are. I do not tolerate their existence out of some skewed since of morality. I tolerate cowardice actions and thoughts because many do not know better and I accept that as “a” reality in this existence. And I take action when it is needed.

Does that make any sense?
:)

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03 Mar 2014 20:28 - 03 Mar 2014 20:29 #140261 by Ve-Lo-Zi
Replied by Ve-Lo-Zi on topic IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE

Wescli Wardest wrote: Accepting things as they are does not mean laying down and letting it happen. (At least not to me) It means recognizing that things happen, all things; good, bad, normal, odd and being okay with the fact that some things are just out of our control. Accepting that it is the way it is and not filling ourselves with hate for the things we have difficulty tolerating or find morally wrong. It means saying, yes this happens and that person has done this thing. The person has committed an act that is in violation of a law or moral law and there will be reproductions for their actions. But the person themselves is not that act.


That is a very strong ideal and I admire anyone who can truly separate between the person who commits an act and the act itself. I really try to do this because I realise that all people - no matter how vile their acts may be - are in some sense still "children of God" or "part of the Force". But I still find myself in situations sometimes where I don't only condemn the act, but feel hatred towards the person as well.
Last edit: 03 Mar 2014 20:29 by Ve-Lo-Zi.

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03 Mar 2014 21:57 #140286 by ren
Replied by ren on topic IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE

Accepting things as they are does not mean laying down and letting it happen. (At least not to me) It means recognizing that things happen, all things; good, bad, normal, odd and being okay with the fact that some things are just out of our control. Accepting that it is the way it is and not filling ourselves with hate for the things we have difficulty tolerating or find morally wrong. It means saying, yes this happens and that person has done this thing. The person has committed an act that is in violation of a law or moral law and there will be reproductions for their actions. But the person themselves is not that act.

When faced with murderers, pedophiles, slavers, and organ traffickers I will accept that is what they do. They do not have the same moral beliefs that I do and this in turn means I am probably in a hostile situation I may have to defend myself or my friends and loved ones to get out of. I accept that and will take the necessary actions to insure the safety and wellbeing of those I am to protect.

I accept the individual for what they are. I do not tolerate their existence out of some skewed since of morality. I tolerate cowardice actions and thoughts because many do not know better and I accept that as “a” reality in this existence. And I take action when it is needed.

Does that make any sense?


So what does acceptance mean to you besides that you hold knowledge about the things you "accept"?
In what way does a murderer whom you accept differ from one you are not aware of?

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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03 Mar 2014 22:19 #140290 by Wescli Wardest

In what way does a murderer whom you accept differ from one you are not aware of?


It doesn’t. They are still people. And if they have both done it and I only know of one then that is how it is.

I don’t think I am explaining this in a way where it is being understood. I am not accepting a murderer. I accept that shit happens and that people are often the cause of it.

Story time…
I was talking one day and someone said, “I don’t trust that guy.” I said, “I do.” They were like “Really!?!?!?”
Yup.” “I trust them to be exactly who they are... Nothing more, nothing less.
I accept that we are not all the same and instead of wasting time tolerating and being annoyed and want to change everything the way I think it should be, I accept that it is the way it is and try to understand it for what it is. Then, maybe things will change in a way I think they might be better. But often times it is us or the times that changes and we have to see that for what it is.

See, I accept that you do not view it the way I do. I don’t have to tolerate your different view. Nor do I have to defend my view or convince anyone of its legitimacy. That’s just how it is. :D

I don’t know how I can explain it better. I may be able to come up with something more later…

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03 Mar 2014 23:37 #140299 by ren
Replied by ren on topic IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE
You're confusing me. You say you accept people/events as they are, but you also say you do not accept murderers.

So how do you choose what you accept and what you do not accept?

See, I accept that you do not view it the way I do. I don’t have to tolerate your different view. Nor do I have to defend my view or convince anyone of its legitimacy. That’s just how it is.


Sounds like disregard, or apathy, not acceptance.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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03 Mar 2014 23:58 #140300 by Wescli Wardest
I don’t know how I can make it plainer.

Let’s see…
You say murderer. I say that is a person that has committed murder. I accept that the person committed a crime. I do not agree with someone breaking the law nor do I support it. But I can accept that the person has committed murder. That does not mean I have to tolerate it. Which none of this is the point really.

The point is not who can accept who and who what you have to tolerate. The point is how are you choosing to face your reality? Fighting it tooth and nail or learning about it and accepting that things are the way they are?

Again, you can choose to accept that we have different views on this; try to understand another's views; explain your own instead of trying to pick someone else’s apart or continue on the same path. It’s not apathy, disregard or whatever. It is that I have accepted that this will play out as it has time and time again… it is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. :P

I guess the confusion could stem from that it seems you seem to see the murderer as his actions. I see them as a person who has made actions. The action is wrong according to society. The person is the one that brought the action. But I am not accepting his action but that the action happens. And in recourse it will have to be dealt with.

IE: I trust that person to be exactly who they are, nothing more and nothing less. And I accept that is “a” (not the entire) reality that we are subjected to in life.

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04 Mar 2014 01:37 - 04 Mar 2014 01:37 #140313 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE
Perhaps need the dimension of time added to this;

Tolerate - disagree but seek no alteration temporarily, with intent to re-engage to seek alteration in future.
Accept - agree and seek no alteration, or disagree and have no intention to seek future alteration.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 04 Mar 2014 01:37 by Adder.

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04 Mar 2014 02:15 #140321 by Jestor
Replied by Jestor on topic IMPORTANT: DOCTRINE UPDATE
Ugh, lol..

Don't include time... Lets not drag imaginary things into it, lol...;)

Hahaha....

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Llama Su, Trisskar
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna, Knight Madhatter
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