Copyright

Senan wrote:

Streen wrote: I would think that the CafePress and Zazzle shops would be immune as well, as proceeds fund the non-profit as well, and if you're referring to cafepress or zazzle themselves taking a cut, they would do that regardless of whether it has the work Jedi on it or not, they do it with all their merchandise, so I don't see how anyone is directly profitting from that usage.

It's not always about whether or not someone is profiting. It is also about whether or not selling these items would be damaging Disney/LucasFilms ability to sell similar products. Even if we aren't making any money, the copyright or trademark owner could claim that we are creating unfair competition using their own trademark to create a competing product and thus harming their ability to sell it themselves.

Precisely!!

CryojenX wrote:

Senan wrote:

Streen wrote: I guess someone ought to hurry up and scrub out the word "Jedi" on every page of this website :blink:

Religion is often considered a "non-commercial use" as interpreted under the Federal Trademark Dilution Act of 1995. Since we are a non-profit and quite obviously not making any money, it is unlikely that Disney/LucasArts/LucasFilms etc would have any reason to pursue legal action against us.

If you are making any profit, however, they have demonstrated that they will go after you in court. A perfect example would be the use of the word "Jedi" on TOTJO merchandise on CafePress or Zazzle. This could be considered a commercial use of the trademark and it would be in violation of the law.

It should also be noted that trademark and copyright, while similar, are not the same thing.

I would think that the CafePress and Zazzle shops would be immune as well, as proceeds fund the non-profit as well, and if you're referring to cafepress or zazzle themselves taking a cut, they would do that regardless of whether it has the work Jedi on it or not, they do it with all their merchandise, so I don't see how anyone is directly profitting from that usage.

Actually, the CafePress and Zazzle shops have no reference to "Jedi", iirc. I think that sort of thing was removed. And all that's left is our logo, which still needs to be properly trademarked.

Regardless, it's not just whether you're making a profit. If we make Disney look bad through our use of the word "Jedi", they will come after us, as we're damaging the value of their intellectual property even without making a dime.

6h057 wrote: I'm STILL not advocating piracy. Why is that getting lost in this dialog?

No one is saying that you are...

This is just a discssion, and you are taking the other side, lol...

And it is a slimly supported side, but for a good discssion, someone has to...

And, to be quite honest, someone had too...

I really appreciate it, I am not smart enough, and while I am not a deliberate law breaker, I sorta do what I want, and damn the consequences.... I will play the cards I am dealt...

However, with so much expalnation, and give an take in this conversation, I feel so much smarter, lol...

And, I did change my avatar to a "labeled for reuse" picture... I understand that points much better now...

6h057 wrote:

Senan wrote:

Streen wrote: I would think that the CafePress and Zazzle shops would be immune as well, as proceeds fund the non-profit as well, and if you're referring to cafepress or zazzle themselves taking a cut, they would do that regardless of whether it has the work Jedi on it or not, they do it with all their merchandise, so I don't see how anyone is directly profitting from that usage.

It's not always about whether or not someone is profiting. It is also about whether or not selling these items would be damaging Disney/LucasFilms ability to sell similar products. Even if we aren't making any money, the copyright or trademark owner could claim that we are creating unfair competition using their own trademark to create a competing product and thus harming their ability to sell it themselves.

Precisely!!

Its why TOTJO merchandise says TOTJO... It used to say "Temple of the Jedi Order", but Zazzle and Cafe Press took our merchandise down until we fixed it...

Looks like I'm a little late to the party. (fashionably so of course )

I do not know much about the law but I have a number of artist friends and family members so I have some opinions as far as copyright stuff goes.

Basically, if someone took time and effort to create something they deserve to be paid for it. Now they may choose not to be (I had a professor in college who wrote a book just for use in his class and refused to profit from it so that his students could save money on it), but that should be their choice not yours.

The internet, and piracy in particular, have ruined many formerly good industries as far as paying the artists. Every time you illegally download something you are depriving an artist of their due money. You may not think that your small contribution will make a difference in their pocket, but millions of people doing it will make a HUGE difference. Especially to newer artists. Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley may not notice people pirating KISS's music, but that local band that just recorded their first album will.

People have a tendancy to view artists as feeling "too entitled" to compensation. Well I think that the general public has become too entitled to think that they can just have stuff for free.

The entire thing has become a vicious cycle. People start stealing works so the people who made those works have to charge more to the people who are honest so that they can still make a decent living. Then people get fed up at the high price and so they join in the theft causing another price jump, which causes more people to join up with the pirates, and so on and so forth. It has to stop, and the people charging more aren't breaking the law so... :whistle:

Anyway, I'll hop off my soap box for a while.

steamboat28 wrote: Actually, the CafePress and Zazzle shops have no reference to "Jedi", iirc. I think that sort of thing was removed. And all that's left is our logo, which still needs to be properly trademarked.

Regardless, it's not just whether you're making a profit. If we make Disney look bad through our use of the word "Jedi", they will come after us, as we're damaging the value of their intellectual property even without making a dime.

Actually yes, I've looked at the Zazzle store and it at least still has many items with the TotJO "Jedi" text above the logo.

There are attorneys with decades of practice who, by their own admission, know next to nothing about copyright and trademark law. Generally that's a specialty. Then there's artists, writers, publishers and producers who know far more about the subject than many attorneys. Having or not having a law degree does not mean someone knows something or not.

A trademark or service mark does not cover every possible use. And it has to be in use for the purpose or purposes for which it receives a registration.

Jedi is not, IS NOT, registered by anyone for The Order's purposes.

Besides the obvious fact that we're Real Jedi and not Fictional Jedi our purposes for using Jedi are:

Religious and Ministerial Services Including Pastoral Counseling.
Educational Services, namely, Conducting Courses in Philosophy and Religion.

Look it up. Go to http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4802:igpxdn.1.1 and see what you get for Jedi. There's several registrations because they cover different uses.

Then there's the First Amendment. Someone could register StarWarsIsEvil.com and rant and rave to Kingdom Come that God told them Star Wars is the work of the Devil and everyone should stay away from it. That's protected critical speech and Fair Use of the term Star Wars. Even if The Order could make Lucas and Disney look bad (how could we?) that does not give them the power to do anything to us. Of course they can file a lawsuit. Frivolous and idiotic lawsuits are filed all the time. That would only generate incredible amounts of publicity for us. Then attorneys would be falling all over themselves volunteering to represent us for free (worth millions and millions in advertising for them) on First Amendment freedom of religion grounds and the fact the we're not violating any trademark or service mark anyway.

CryojenX wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Actually, the CafePress and Zazzle shops have no reference to "Jedi", iirc. I think that sort of thing was removed. And all that's left is our logo, which still needs to be properly trademarked.

Regardless, it's not just whether you're making a profit. If we make Disney look bad through our use of the word "Jedi", they will come after us, as we're damaging the value of their intellectual property even without making a dime.

Actually yes, I've looked at the Zazzle store and it at least still has many items with the TotJO "Jedi" text above the logo.

Well!!

I stand corrected!! :whistle: :whistle: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

lol, maybe it was just the Cafe Press store? I am having trouble getting it to load... :dry:

Jestor wrote:

CryojenX wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Actually, the CafePress and Zazzle shops have no reference to "Jedi", iirc. I think that sort of thing was removed. And all that's left is our logo, which still needs to be properly trademarked.

Regardless, it's not just whether you're making a profit. If we make Disney look bad through our use of the word "Jedi", they will come after us, as we're damaging the value of their intellectual property even without making a dime.

Actually yes, I've looked at the Zazzle store and it at least still has many items with the TotJO "Jedi" text above the logo.

Well!!

I stand corrected!! :whistle: :whistle: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

lol, maybe it was just the Cafe Press store? I am having trouble getting it to load... :dry:

The Lucasfilm trademark on Jedi does affect those shops:

Mark Image
Word Mark JEDI
Goods and Services IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Children's activity books; novels for adults; book covers; book marks; books containing puzzles and games; books featuring photographs; books for role-playing; children's books; children's books combined with toys and sold as a unit; children's story books; coffee table books; comic books; comic magazines; printed instructional manuals and strategy guides in the field of computer games and science fiction; juvenile books featuring science fiction; magazines in the field of science fiction entertainment; novels for juveniles; posters; puzzle books; read-along children's books; series of fiction books; sticker albums; sticker books; stickers; story books; temporary tattoos; trading cards; art prints; animation cels; collectible trading cards; lithographic prints. original works of art created from paper, photographic prints; printed art reproductions; posters featuring printed replicas of characters from movies. FIRST USE: 19931000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19931000
IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Clothing, namely, caps; children's footwear; coats; costume accessories, namely, headwear and belts; crop tops; dresses; fitness tops; footwear; gloves; hats; head wear; jackets; knit caps; masquerade costumes and masks sold in connection therewith; pajamas; shirts; sleepwear; slippers; sweatshirts; T-shirts; underwear; visors. FIRST USE: 20050500. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050500

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETTER-3-OR-MORE JEDI Combination of three or more letters as part of the mark
Serial Number 78488803
Filing Date September 23, 2004
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition June 20, 2006
Registration Number 3794988
Registration Date May 25, 2010
Owner (REGISTRANT) Lucasfilm Ltd. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA PO BOX 29901 SAN FRANCISO CALIFORNIA 94129
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record Barbara Quinn
Prior Registrations 2595365;2823661;2858244;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

ren wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Jestor wrote:

CryojenX wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Actually, the CafePress and Zazzle shops have no reference to "Jedi", iirc. I think that sort of thing was removed. And all that's left is our logo, which still needs to be properly trademarked.

Regardless, it's not just whether you're making a profit. If we make Disney look bad through our use of the word "Jedi", they will come after us, as we're damaging the value of their intellectual property even without making a dime.

Actually yes, I've looked at the Zazzle store and it at least still has many items with the TotJO "Jedi" text above the logo.

Well!!

I stand corrected!! :whistle: :whistle: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

lol, maybe it was just the Cafe Press store? I am having trouble getting it to load... :dry:

The Lucasfilm trademark on Jedi does affect those shops:

Warning: Spoiler!

Mark Image
Word Mark JEDI
Goods and Services IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Children's activity books; novels for adults; book covers; book marks; books containing puzzles and games; books featuring photographs; books for role-playing; children's books; children's books combined with toys and sold as a unit; children's story books; coffee table books; comic books; comic magazines; printed instructional manuals and strategy guides in the field of computer games and science fiction; juvenile books featuring science fiction; magazines in the field of science fiction entertainment; novels for juveniles; posters; puzzle books; read-along children's books; series of fiction books; sticker albums; sticker books; stickers; story books; temporary tattoos; trading cards; art prints; animation cels; collectible trading cards; lithographic prints. original works of art created from paper, photographic prints; printed art reproductions; posters featuring printed replicas of characters from movies. FIRST USE: 19931000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19931000
IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Clothing, namely, caps; children's footwear; coats; costume accessories, namely, headwear and belts; crop tops; dresses; fitness tops; footwear; gloves; hats; head wear; jackets; knit caps; masquerade costumes and masks sold in connection therewith; pajamas; shirts; sleepwear; slippers; sweatshirts; T-shirts; underwear; visors. FIRST USE: 20050500. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050500

Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETTER-3-OR-MORE JEDI Combination of three or more letters as part of the mark
Serial Number 78488803
Filing Date September 23, 2004
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition June 20, 2006
Registration Number 3794988
Registration Date May 25, 2010
Owner (REGISTRANT) Lucasfilm Ltd. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA PO BOX 29901 SAN FRANCISO CALIFORNIA 94129
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record Barbara Quinn
Prior Registrations 2595365;2823661;2858244;AND OTHERS
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Shhhh....

(or buy them while you can before we get told ya cant...)

Br. John wrote: There are attorneys with decades of practice who, by their own admission, know next to nothing about copyright and trademark law. Generally that's a specialty. Then there's artists, writers, publishers and producers who know far more about the subject than many attorneys. Having or not having a law degree does not mean someone knows something or not.

Knowledge and legal authority to interpret are two different things. I, for example, very clearly have knowledge on the topic, but I have no legal authority to interpret it, so bending copyright law to my whim is still illegal.