Jedi and "Drugs"

OB1Shinobi wrote: drunken driving is intrinsically dangerous - i support the idea that it should carry penalty
as far as freedom of not having to see something we dont like, to me its the same thing as trying to make it against the law to be ugly in public, or really old in public, or sickly

imo "i dont like to see it" is not good enough to justify "youre not allowed to do it"

Thats a fairly extreme comparison.

Simply put, freedom, does not exist in a void.

Akkarin wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote: 3) Will it impair my judgement?

Does it always impair? Or does it expand?

If you are drunk to the point you are slurring, can you help someone in need? That is why impairment is so vital in this question. Because I never want to be in a position where I cannot provide aide when it is necessary, even if that aide is as simple as calling 9-1-1 for assistance.

neither does extremism though

i find it instructive when considering the merits of an idea to draw that idea to its logical conclusion

the conclusion of the idea that laws ought to be made based on personal taste does in fact result in laws against being ugly or unsightly - not only this but so far as such a basis for laws will result ultimately in collapse because EVERYTHING is unsightly to someone

and the "i dont like it" crowd only gets larger and more demanding as you cater to them

the opposing idea is to only make laws based on what is verifiable and predictable to cause actual and direct harm to other people

i thought about it a bit and i realized that public masturbation in some cases could constitute a genuine health risk - is it enough to justify keeping it against the law? well, its enough to be worth the discussion imo and if it were agreed it should not be legal ON THOSE GROUNDS i would be in support

but simply saying "it must be a crime because i dont like to see it" is, as far as i can tell, a pretty likely precursor to "round them up put them on the trains" historically speaking
or smallpox blankets

you might call that extreme
but history IS extreme
and what im talking about is nothing more than the natural and eventual conclusion of a particular line of reasoning

its true that we have balances in place to check the extremism, but as long as the line of reasoning exists that it is ok to make it a crime to offend someones taste, simply because there is someone on one side who is so important that their tastes should become law and someone else on the other side whose makes these special people so uncomfortable that the law must be used against them, then the very real risk of it eventually resulting in extreme levels of dehumanization on a "lesser" class does as well

the idea that "that kind of thing wouldnt happen anymore" is EXACTLY the first step to it happening again

Alethea Thompson wrote:

Akkarin wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote: 3) Will it impair my judgement?

Does it always impair? Or does it expand?

If you are drunk to the point you are slurring, can you help someone in need? That is why impairment is so vital in this question. Because I never want to be in a position where I cannot provide aide when it is necessary, even if that aide is as simple as calling 9-1-1 for assistance.

i had a birthday about 6-7 yrs ago and some friends hooked me up with an lsd trip
we went swimming early on and after that i spent the rest of the night trying to get my boots back on lol i coulndt do it

these friends were all nice gentle people who "wouldnt hurt a fly"
i would have been totally useless if something would have happened
i grew up using lsd and mushrooms but thats the last time i ever do acid again i think because im simply past the point that its right for me

like the above quote, i consider it my responsibility to be alert enough to be useful when crisis occurs
WHEN, not IF

Lol, would you be able to help someone? Really?

How high of a percentage are these scenarios were going to take things to make an argument?

As I stated, I never left my house, and yes, drunk people have dialed 911.

Haha, a cop after eating pot brownies called 911 on himself.

So lets not try to think of the most ridiculous, low percentage, extreme situation to make an argument as if it does.

I could argue that Jedi are to worried about the force or meditating to be of help to people, but that is also a poor example.

Objectively, a drunk Jedi cannot concentrate properly, cannot keep his head straight and his speech, coordination and response time is affected.

Remember that a Jedi must always keep self-discipline, respect the law, and be ready to help others anytime. And last but not least, a Jedi carries the reputation of the whole Order with him, so one must be careful with his behavior.

Strictly, a Jedi would not drink ever, however if one keeps consumption reduced to a bare minimum (social situations, family gatherings...) i don't see it much of a problem.

Alethea Thompson wrote:

Akkarin wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote: 3) Will it impair my judgement?

Does it always impair? Or does it expand?

If you are drunk to the point you are slurring, can you help someone in need?

I don't measure the value my life has in whether or not I am able to spontaneously jump into action at any given point to help someone.

So lets not try to think of the most ridiculous, low percentage, extreme situation to make an argument as if it does.

Picking up on this, Aly your argument seems to be going along the same sorts of lines as "All Jedi should learn martial arts, because what if there is someone we need to save?"

I'm not a slave to hypotheticals.

There is also the argument, if im less inclined to be diplomatic, that many "Jedi" I have met, well, I wouldnt want there help, nor considered them qualified even if they were stone cold, sober.

There are also levels to intoxication, or any substance use.

I need not be slurring, falling down, drunk.

Nor blitzed out of my mind on weed.

Psychedelics?

Well, were I going on such an experiment, usually, there is a sober person present, especially in the case of guided shamanic journeys, and even in the case of psychedelics, you can also control the dosage.

What if, what if, what if.

What if I have an aneurysm.

What if I took Nyquil for a cold? Thats actually fairly intoxicating, though most cold medicine gives you an off setting.

What if I trained to hard and my muscles are to tired to perform well, because you know, I may need to lift a burning car off of someone.
:laugh:

the difference between working out until exhaustion and drinking until oblivion are that the workout will result in your becoming stronger

the drinking will, ultimately, make you weaker

for myself, i am not saying anything about shamanic journeys or altered states as a spiritual tool

i totally acknowledge the value there

i am talking about getting drunk and getting high because you dont feel comfortable in your skin

or building a lifestyle around an activity which results in becoming inebriated to the point where mental judgement emotional balance and physical coordination are all impaired

and the continued participation in an activity beyond the point where you know its not healthy anymore

this is not the same thing as a shamanic journey or a spiritual practice by any stretch of the imagination and that is my only point

if all i am qualified to do is help an old lady make it across the street i would do a better job of it if im not trashed out of my gourd

the track records of ruined lives speak for themselves of the issue of drugs and alcohol and tobacco

my experience with coffee has been pretty much the same as Edan has talked about

that being said im drinking a cup of it right now because i love the coffee here at the school the girl at the counter is cute and damnit if i can walk away from booze and tobacco i will drink a cup of java if i want to

imo humans should use medicinal plants far more than most in western societies do, but it should be directly, as each person imo ought to be sort of an ameteur herbologist and botonist, growing and using directly the plants and herbs which sustain health

rather than buying a bunch of crap from major corporations who tinker with nature beyond the point of it contining to be entirely natural anymore

i also have the belife that it would do most everyone well to experience a peyote or an ayahusca ceremony or something of the equivilant a few times at least in the course of their lives

the difference between working out until exhaustion and drinking until oblivion are that the workout will result in your becoming stronger

Thats completely besides the point.

The point im making, is that I can of course introduce those few small scenarios that would make being intoxicated(notice, I did not say drinking until oblivion, as that again, is that small window argument.) a worse case scenario.

If were going to base our whole rationale on what we dont do by the lowest percentage scenario, well, thats not logical, or rational in any way, shape, or form.

Lets look at that scenario logically.

How many Jedi have first aid, and CPR certification, because in most places, its illegal to perform without such.

It also means, especially considering such things update in method, that even if they knew it at one time, they may be performing it wrong, or if they have n card at all, or training, there just as useless as the drunk guy.

Calling 911?

Sure, but a drunk guy could do that, and perhaps in slurring there speech a few more minutes may be taken, but again, its an argument for the lowest percentage to make a point.

Mine is much higher percentage. Also, being able to respond immediately is much more pertinent than just the ability to call 911, especially the Jedi and the call to help the helpless, as it were.

A lot of people, arent certified, or even know the method.

Even Jedi.

So, again, you missed the point.