Forum Access Changes

Zenchi wrote: And perhaps next time you'll allow everyone to have a say and involve everyone in the loop before jumping into the frying pan and "see how it goes." No offense, but what did you expect, lol...

I assure you if you turned back time by a year, perhaps a year and a half every decision was made almost exclusively by Council, I know because I was perhaps the very first person outside of Council to actually be delegated responsibility (with PR and the Articles/FAQ).

This is one of the first times that the Knights have explicitly been involved with making a change, and from this we can learn how to do things differently. For example next time when it is a topic as important we will probably post the draft of changes first before implementing them...

Have you ever heard of too many cooks spoiling the broth? That is often why decisions were kept to a few, this time we've tried something different and it is evidently clear that this different process can be improved upon, which is something we will ensure happens in the future.

Kitsu Tails wrote: I am one of those "Guests" that are hesitant, fearful, and timid about voicing my concerns and complaints. This is not because of your rank bar. But because of how I have been treated in the past, how others have been treated and thus 'vented' to me as an outside observer, and how I have viewed actions from "Ghost" status.

Well I don't remember us having a conversation about this in the past so I'm telling you that if this is something that matters to you (and it seems as though it does) you do not have to be hesitant or fearful about voicing your concerns with me.

Please PM me if this is something you want to talk about, and if it isn't then please PM me about anything in future that you want to talk about. Failing that get someone to do it on your behalf so you can gauge my reaction first lol, if I manage to convince you that really I won't bite then you can contact me directly (this of course can be equally applied to every Councillor, but I wanted to personally reassure you, and the others who also might feel dis-empowered and worried).

There have been some clergy suggestions thrown around recently about trying to address some of these concerns, they have been put on the back-burner because we've just overhauled our Seminary training, but I'll bring them back up again today and make them a priority so we can address these concerns of our members (and non-members).

Can I just say that I think it is unwise to base ones actions or feelings on the sentiment of one person?

If say, your concerns are not heard by one Knight or Council Member (hypothetically and for whatever reason) why not chose another? In the end we are all human and all learning and none of us is perfect. We must allow for ALL to grow.

I think we should just learn to accept the change in hopes that future changes will be improved upon. I certainly understand all the opinions that this thread has brought up, and I could see myself agreeing with all. I think this thread is going too quick to even have the time to reflect thoroughly to what is being said...

So, could we all accept that the change has been made? and the unease that the change has brought was not intended.

I'm sure the members of the council will learn from this experience.

May the force be with you all.

My church keeps it's doors open for anyone to come in. They are asked to only respect the church and members or are asked to leave. They can go anywhere and speak to anyone they wish to. It is very rare anyone is asked to leave when the understand the terms of their visit. Everyone in the community, in the church and outside, supports our policy and gently reminds visitors if they get out of line.

To all involved in this debate, please watch your language. I remind you minors can access this forum and the guidelines are, if you wouldn't be happy for an 8 year old to read it, don't post it.

Changes to Forum Access have been implemented and announced: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/114-Announcements/108282-access-forum-changes-refined#165234

I'm sorry but we are all a part of this Temple so if we don't agree with something and have other options that we feel should be explored then I'd personally say no. We shouldn't just accept the change.
I appreciate all the council do and have no problem with them as people but we are just as much a part of this Temple as them, as you and as such should question any changes and put forward our point of view.
From what I'm understanding so far the change is still being discussed? So people should have there say. All people not just apprentices or guests.

Akkarin wrote: This thread has done what a lot of threads can do here and "exploded", but the explosion, as is also typical with other threads like this, seems to have been caused by the constant posting of several specific members.

Well, it's nice to know that even if we're being publicly accused of rebellious spamming, the squeaky wheel does get the grease.

Akkarin wrote: Dismissive? No. Dismissive would be if we ignored you. We are not ignoring you at all..

No, dismissive is deciding policy through private meetings of a subset of the community without telling the community you're in the process of making a decision, with zero representation of the remainder of that community (who will be directly affected by your decision), and then complaining when said remainder finds out about said decision when it's been decided, and realizes that none of their concerns even had a window to be heard. That's pretty [strike]expletive[/strike] dismissive.

Akkarin wrote: In the time between when a decision is made and then discussed and changed people who are not a part of the discussion will be left in a quasi-limbo state of unsureness, because they don't know what's happening. I can understand how that makes someone feel: powerless, ignored...

What makes people here feel powerless and ignored is the lack of input anyone has until after a decision is made, leaving us with one recourse: "bitching" in a thread about it because it's the only way anybody really hears our opinion. We're certainly not asked for it. Nobody consults us. Not that we matter, I mean we're only apprentices and initiates and some guests that post here more frequently than council members. Who cares what we think, right? You guys totes know what's best.

Proteus wrote: While there has been constructive criticism, there has also been outright griping as well, with people reading into the change far more than is necessary. I personally expected this. It happens. The most important points have been given and heard clearly. Some of them were already addressed in the knights forum before being brought up.

Akkarin simply asked if this thread could slow down a bit so that our responses to the matter can keep up. The more and faster people flood a thread, the more stressful and confusing it gets, making it more difficult for the council to listen. I hope you all understand this and take it into consideration.

Proteus, I have two points:

1. "Griping" is not the appropriate word. Merriam-Webster defines griping as "to complain with grumbling." We're not grumbling. We're speaking loudly and plainly and offering alternative suggestions that seem pretty well obvious to us, but apparently escaped the assembled Knights and Councillors. We're trying to help fix something we see as broken based on decisions that we had no part in, in an effort to help restore this place to some kind of actual balance that doesn't seem hateful to outsiders. That isn't griping. That's criticism. The coursework here at TOTJO is all about viewpoint and balance and (arguably) critical thinking. Change the curriculum if you don't want people speaking out.
2. This thread went exactly as fast as posters had things to say. It will continue in like fashion. Just because the problem is "fixed" doesn't mean the discussion is over, because the problem that spawned the problem is still a [strike]expletive[/strike] problem.

Please. Someone else tell me this morning that my opinion doesn't matter and my suggestions aren't welcome. Please. One more person.

steamboat28 wrote: No, dismissive is deciding policy through private meetings of a subset of the community without telling the community you're in the process of making a decision, with zero representation of the remainder of that community (who will be directly affected by your decision), and then complaining when said remainder finds out about said decision when it's been decided, and realizes that none of their concerns even had a window to be heard. That's pretty expletive dismissive.

A couple of points to be made about that.
First, that is what Council does every day.
Second, as much as everyone would like it to be, this is not a democracy where everyone gets what they may consider to be “fair representation.”
I know that realization will upset people, but for its reason’s, it is what it is.

I'm not even asking, technically, for representation.

Just a little [strike]expletive[/strike] transparency once in a while.

Jestor wrote: My apologies...

Forgive me Jestor, I did not see this earlier....was getting ready for my morning walk.

Let me say, I talk funny, ever noticed?

No. I have not noticed how you talk funny. I have however noticed how you don't filter/meditate over your words and how it will effect others before posting. Please take that as friendly crtisim and nothing more. We all have areas to work on and improve...

My wife/kids/bosses/etc "bitches" at me... Is it always "bitching"? No... Mostly when I am resistant to hear it, or it feels like an onslaught where I cannot even take a breath, or in this case, keep up with the posting...

Is she usually right? Yes, just ask her, lol, but that doesnt stop me from referring to that in that manner...

Mmm :dry:

Again, my apologies, your concerns are valid...[/color]

Anyways....Thank you again. Matter closed.

steamboat28 wrote: I'm not even asking, technically, for representation.

Just a little [strike]expletive[/strike] transparency once in a while.

That is not unreasonable. And we have been working towards that. First we started by bringing topics down to the knight’s forum to discuss.

Who knows how far or where it will go one day.

First I would just like to say thank you. I think this has been a great thread. I am glad that people step up and voice concerns and came up with suggestions to correct things instead of just “complaining” with no corrective recommendations.
Thank you to the members and guests who keep the forums alive and breathing, the Temple does not grow without these fresh discussions.

Thank you to the Council and behind the scenes people who try to create the environment and make this Temple what it is. It is never easy to implement changes that everyone can be happy with.

Remember that passive resistance is a tool that can be used to show your disapproval. If a private general discussion area is not used, then the voice of the people will be heard.

My recommendation is that if you want everyone to comment on a topic, resist placing it in an area where the guests are unable to respond.

Things do change. Please remember that people are genuinely trying to make this a better, growing place and are not purposely out “to get” anyone, not being vindictive. Recommendations from everyone are needed to help us all to grow and change in a positive direction.

Kitsu Tails wrote:

Let me say, I talk funny, ever noticed?

No. I have not noticed how you talk funny. I have however noticed how you don't filter/meditate over your words and how it will effect others before posting.

Please take that as friendly crtisim and nothing more. We all have areas to work on and improve...

I do filter...

Not everyone is going to like me, or what I say...

The vast majority has no problem with my mannerisms...

I dont have the answer for you... :huh:

But I will take your suggestion under consideration...

Karn wrote: Remember that passive resistance is a tool that can be used to show your disapproval. If a private general discussion area is not used, then the voice of the people will be heard.

Or "not heard", as the case may be. Silence on the Internet isn't resistance. It's just silence.

Karn wrote
My recommendation is that if you want everyone to comment on a topic, resist placing it in an area where the guests are unable to respond.

That's a good idea and something Edan and I discussed. By posting only in areas open to all then guests aren't excluded from conversations.

steamboat28 wrote: I'm not even asking, technically, for representation.

Just a little [strike]expletive[/strike] transparency once in a while.

Whas up slick...

Before the Temple was this grand deal you see before you, it was slow, and changes affected a minor few...

So, when we made changes, few cared or raised a ruckus...

By having more knights available, we are trying to shift some of the power from council, and a select few, to them, with council running the day to day, and implementation of the Knights and their decisions...

Council are knights as well, but our voices are no louder, or shouldnt be, lol... Maybe mine, but I am a loud mouth, lol...

So, unintentionally, we may open a can of worms from time to time, as things change...

Akkarin announced the newest update in these changes a couple pages back. It hasn't received much attention interestingly.

Here it is again: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/114-Announcements/108282-access-forum-changes-refined

Proteus wrote: Akkarin announced the newest update in these changes a couple pages back. It hasn't received much attention interestingly.

Here it is again: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/114-Announcements/108282-access-forum-changes-refined

I'm just taking a guess...but the reason why its not receiving attention is because the "Flow" is here. Im sure all of us has already read it though. Thank you *bows*