Subatomic Worlds

I often find the Force - like this.
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Clerg...e-a-shepards-journal

Feel free to read through if ya like

Thankyou, I'll check it out.

This makes it sound like neutrinos are at some kind of more "microscopic" level than electrons, nucleons, or quarks. This is incorrect.

Neutrinos are the smallest particle currently detected by science.

"The mass of the neutrino is much smaller than that of the other known elementary particles." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

With microscopes in any traditional-like sense one can just about resolve individual atoms. But that's a nitpick. However, there is no "sizes of particles ... yet further below" than fundamental particles. They are already point-like and without further underlying structure. Yes, we can measure that and we have. This is not controversial. Even the "strings" of string theory are not some kind of level "below" the fundamental particles. Rather, they are attempts to unify what seems to be otherwise an arbitrary zoo of particles into a single type of object with a mathematical description such that all the particles are instances of it with different values for various degrees of freedom.

Yes science has come to see atoms but this is still far from the smallest particles according to cultivators. They have understood that the mind is the greatest scientific tool, it's powers of perception are unmatched once cultivated with spiritual techniques (cultivation) and allow one to penetrate into other dimensions and see far further into the microcosm then any scientific tool.

I don't know about 1994 but today in 2020 it has reached it long enough ago to be teaching this stuff to undergraduate students already - that's how well understood particle physics is. Are we done with it yet? Far from it. But this "nowhere near" idea is nowhere near up to date anymore.

Our science is limited. Cultivators can see into the microcosmic depths of the universe at a level that supersedes any scientific instrument. Even in 2020 science has reached the level of neutrinos but this is still far from the smallest particles in the universe. Cultivators understand that one's 3rd eye opens one can see into unimaginable depths, the greatest microscope so to speak.

Well, if this enlightened one is willing to share his insights, I'm sure there is still a Nobel prize or two up for grabs in this area yet.

Master Li Hongzhi has talked about the structure of the universe in depth in his 1998 Lecture in Geneva, Switzerland:

https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/19980904L.html

Did he bychance say which stars they orbit? Or better yet, present some kind of evidence of this that we can review?

I haven't read the Buddhist scriptures so couldn't say. I will say however that certain Falun Dafa practitioners have seen beings from other star systems. Here is one practitioner who astral traveled to another planet where he encountered an alien race:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109040-Falun-Dafa-Practitioner-Astral-Projects-to-an-Alien-Planet

Bwahahaha!

"Really no different"? Bwaahahaha, what nonsense! Let's start with the simple fact that the electron - aside from having no extension like planets have - does not "orbit" the nucleus at all! Let alone in some way "really no different" from the Earth's orbit above the sun :laugh: And that's not something we learned in the last two decades either. There is no excuse for getting it this horribly wrong in 1994. That it was impossible for the electron to do so was known in the times of Rutherford and Bohr already, and it was only that late because we didn't know atoms were mostly empty with a tiny positively charged nucleus until Rutherford's scattering experiment. That a charged particle couldn't be in a stable orbit around another one was known since the days of Maxwell already. This is incidentally one of the reasons quantum theory was needed, and why to see the electron as a classical particle, like a planet, orbiting the nucleus as if it were its sun, was at best a bad caricature everyone knew was bad but had nothing better to put in its place."

You have to understand that the universe is multidimensional in nature. In other dimensions the concepts of time and space all change and are very different to how things are in our dimension. A falun dafa practitioner bought up the point you mentioned in an article. Namely, the uncertainty of the electrons orbiting around the nucleus of an atom is only uncertain from our dimension:

"Another thing I’ve enlightened to is what quantum physics refers to as uncertainty. Quantum physics states that the location of electrons at any given time is uncertain. In my understanding, this uncertainty relates to the differences in time. It is not the location of particles that is uncertain, but because of the time difference between our dimension and the dimension of the atom, we can’t see it.

If the atom was magnified to the size of the solar system, the location of every electron would be as certain as the location of every planet. From our dimension, it seems that the electrons rotate very fast, but from the perspective of the atomic dimension, it is just as slow or as fast as the revolution of the planets around the sun."

from:

http://www.pureinsight.org/node/5616

Look, I'm not here to poop on anyone's parade. If someone feels there is some profundity in viewing themselves as one level in a chain extending infinitely in both directions, by all means, "feel the Force flow through you", as he expression goes. But if you (not you Gem, I mean generally anyone...) are going to try and justify it through the findings of science, at least make some effort to learn about any of them. Take a very close look at the kind of wooster who will try and sell you their spiritual fluff piggy-backing on the good name of science, whilst misrepresenting it far beyond recognition, and ask yourself why they wouldn't make a philosophical or religious appeal instead.
If you want to learn about nature, I'd encourage anyone. Time permitting I'd even offer some assistance where I can. But don't rely on - and repeat - what your spiritual inspirers say about it unless you have some indication that they know anything about what they are speaking on. And in the end if you struggle to find good sources, or the time, or resources, remember: You don't have to study science, nor do you have to try and justify your spirituality through it. If anything, I think there is a case to be made for a spirituality free from science, and the constraints it brings with its commitment to build a genuine understanding of this beautiful nature around us.

I understand your reservations Gisteron. There are many teachings today that are not Truth and are embroiled in money, power or other nefarious things and it is sometimes hard to discern the wheat from the chaff. However Falun Dafa is Buddha Law, it's knowledge, wisdom and insights are vast and it transcends the knowledge of our current scientific paradigm. Buddha Law is a higher science. It tries to use modern science (when it can) to explain a few things within this dimension but it goes far and beyond our current scientific paradigm. It's multidimensional in nature.

I highly recommend checking out Zhuan Falun if you haven't already. It talks about all these things in depth.

I will leave you with an section from Zhuan Falun Volume 2 ( a supplementary book) that compares our current scientific knowledge to Buddha Law:

https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/html/zfl2/zfl2.htm#8



Adder wrote:

The map is not the territory.

Literally, its common in spiritual stuff for people tend to worship the idol (or teachings (or guru)), rather then seeing them as simple maps to the real inner practice of engineering perception and cognition.

Even in star wars they had padawans and Jedi's who mentored them and taught them the ways of the force.

Actually, in Cultivation ways throughout history Qi Gong Masters would train and pass down their knowledge and wisdom to their disciples down through the ages in a lineage type manner.

There were many masters like this throughout the ages. Buddha Shakyamuni and Jesus were two such enlightened beings but there have been many more lost to time in prehistoric civilizations. The age of Falun Dafa is very ancient, it's true history is very prehistoric indeed and only recently since a few decades ago has it been given to the secular world.

Before you recommend me your scriptures like some sort of Mormon visitor, please understand that approaching me through science will not be effective if you bother not to learn any before trying. As long as my own undergraduate understanding of physics keeps far surpassing that of you and your enlightened brethren, I am unlikely to come to look up to you as an authority on matters of science.

EnergyGem wrote: Neutrinos are the smallest particle currently detected by science.

"The mass of the neutrino is much smaller than that of the other known elementary particles." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

This, dear ladies and gentlemen, is why you only use Wikipedia as a source (if at all) when you already know what it's talking about and what to look up, and not when you do not.

"The photon is a type of elementary particle... Photons have zero mass,..." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

Neutrinos are not the elementary particles with the smallest mass - photons are. And in terms of size/shape they are as point-like as the rest of the elementary particles. So neutrinos aren't "the smallest" of all known elementary particles in either sense of the word.

Even in 2020 science has reached the level of neutrinos but this is still far from the smallest particles in the universe.

In terms of size/shape, it is exactly as far as it goes. It's not smaller than quarks or electrons, but there is no particle smaller than a point. In terms of mass, we do have smaller particles already: The photons I mentioned before. Let me use this opportunity to point out another elementary particle lighter than the neutrino: The gluon. Theoretically it should also be massless, like the photon. Experimentally we have only been able to confirm that it is at least a hundred times lighter than the neutrino.

Namely, the uncertainty of the electrons orbiting around the nucleus of an atom...

I didn't bring up uncertainty, but if you want to say yet more ridiculously wrong things about physics, by all means, I'm not here to stop you embarassing yourself and your brethren in faith. There is no "electrons orbiting around the nucleus of an atom". But let's see what your "enlightened" brother has to say about this.

Another thing I’ve enlightened to is what quantum physics refers to as uncertainty. Quantum physics states that the location of electrons at any given time is uncertain. In my understanding, this uncertainty relates to the differences in time. It is not the location of particles that is uncertain, but because of the time difference between our dimension and the dimension of the atom, we can’t see it.

No, that's incorrect. It's not like the electron really has a location that we just happen to be unable to precisely measure because our instruments are limited. Sure enough, there is measurement error as well, but uncertainty is a mathematical, logical consequence of the theory itself. We can measure that electrons have wave-like properties, that's not debatable. We can also measure that they have mass, that is also not debatable. Uncertainty follows mathematically from any description of a system like that. There is no consistent way of denying uncertainty without also denying frankly very easily reproducible (even with household means) observations.

From our dimension, it seems that the electrons rotate very fast,...

No, it does not. Setting aside that "very fast" is still below the speed of light, which we have no trouble resolving anyway, we actually do also know what it would look like "from our dimension" if electrons did rotate very fast around the nucleus they be bound to. And we have known that this is not what it looks like for a century now. I'm sorry, but your fellow practitioner who was "enlightened" to the secrets of quantum physics went on to present a completely false revelation about it. You may like what he has to say, and you may let him inspire your spiritual journey to any extent you please, but his scientific insights are - to put it bluntly - garbage. Maybe the gods wanted to toy with him, that I can't tell you, but it seems like what ever they revealed to him must either have been about as wrong as any lay man's wild speculations, or he misunderstood the revelation and elected not to inquire further but write down his nonsensical evidently blind guesses in an article instead. Someone who had any kind of curiosity, or any humility, would have bothered to find out first - it would not even have taken them long. This fellow however chose not to try. Enough said...

[Buddha Law] tries to use modern science (when it can) to explain a few things within this dimension...

Yea, well, I don't know who this "Buddha Law" person is, but judging by what you quote at me for reference it would seem that your brethren use science only because people generally trust it, eventhough most don't understand much of it. That's why with most audiences they can get away with talking complete gibberish as they put fancy sounding words in their mouth, and pretend like there is scientific merit to their woo. I'm sorry, but here is not that kind of audience. Perhaps you'd be better advised to keep it purely spiritual instead, if you must seek converts, and maybe you wouldn't end up sounding half as ignorant about the topics you raise.

If you want to build your journey on science, by all means, be my guest. As I said, I might even try and assist you in that. And if you wish to build it on some philosophical, or religious grounds, I'm sure there is someone else around to help out with each of that, too.
If you want to build your journey instead on false science, or on naive theology, or on bad philosophy, that, too, is perfectly within your rights. But as you are free to present your sect in search of converts, expect the religious scholars and philosophers and scientists among us to point out when you make it clear you spent no time investigating what it is you pull in to support your quest.

Before you recommend me your scriptures like some sort of Mormon visitor, please understand that approaching me through science will not be effective if you bother not to learn any before trying. As long as my own undergraduate understanding of physics keeps far surpassing that of you and your enlightened brethren, I am unlikely to come to look up to you as an authority on matters of science.

That's a little hostile Glisteron. I am sharing not scriptures. If you look at the excerpt from that book ( Zhuan Falun Volume 2) you would see that Master Li Hongzhi compares our current scientific paradigm to Buddha Law. Buddha Law is the law of the universe which enlightened beings have come to understand and awaken to in their inner cultivation. It far transcends our current scientific understanding about life, the universe and the human body. Science has closed off many people from the Truth and it's firmly formulated axioms are protected strongly, many times by emotion and not reason.

Neutrinos are not the elementary particles with the smallest mass - photons are. And in terms of size/shape they are as point-like as the rest of the elementary particles. So neutrinos aren't "the smallest" of all known elementary particles in either sense of the word.

I am talking about particles that are matter. Strictly speaking, Photons are not matter.

If by "matter" you mean massive (in the sense of having nonzero rest mass), then photons are not matter. - https://www.quora.com/Are-photons-energy-or-matter

A photon is a "particle of light." However, photons are not considered to be matter because they have no mass. They are "massless particles." Think of them as little packets of energy, each containing one quantum of energy, which is the smallest amount of energy that matter can absorb at a time. - https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3tix50/are_photons_matter_and_do_they_have_mass_how_much/

So neutrinos are actually the smallest type of elementary particle of matter that has been detected by science at it's current stage.

"I didn't bring up uncertainty, but if you want to say yet more ridiculously wrong things about physics, by all means, I'm not here to stop you embarassing yourself and your brethren in faith. There is no "electrons orbiting around the nucleus of an atom". But let's see what your "enlightened" brother has to say about this."

The reason why science has restricted itself is because what it can't see or detect yet with it's scientific instruments it rejects and denies outright and rigidly holds on to it's current scientific axioms. Yes, electrons at a very microcosmic level are just like planets orbiting around a sun. Everything changes when one pierces different dimensions and space/times. Time and space are different in different dimensions. Great Enlightened beings already know that the universe is multidimensional in nature and science is also starting to understand this at a tentative and theoretical level.

I know you have reservations about this but I will share you an excerpt from A Buddha Law lecture by Master Li Hongzhi (the author of Zhuan Falun) where he addresses this point:

“What kind of dimensional form does our human race live in? I am telling everyone that this dimensional layer where mankind lives is between two kinds of particles. As for particles, those of us who have studied physics know that molecules, atoms, nuclei, quarks, and neutrinos are each a layer of particles. They are physical elements that constitute larger particles. Which layer of particles does mankind exist in? The largest things that we see with human eyes are planets, and the smallest things that we can see under the microscope are molecules.

In fact, our mankind just exists in this dimensional layer between the planets and the molecules. We may find it very vast, very extensive, and incomparably big. I say that modern science is not advanced. No matter how far a spacecraft can fly, it cannot fly beyond this physical dimension of ours. However developed a computer is, it cannot match the human brain. Now the human brain is still a mystery. Therefore, the science of mankind is still very shallow.

Try to imagine it, everyone. Our human race lives in between these two kinds of particles of planets and molecules. Molecules are made up of atoms, then what is the dimension between atoms and molecules like? Modern scientists can only understand an atom as a point, one of its small structures. In fact, the place where atoms exist is also a plane, and the physical dimension formed by such a plane is also quite huge. It is only that what you have discovered is a point. Within this plane then, how big is this dimension?

Our standard for measuring distances is always based upon the perspective of mankind’s own modern science to judge everything. You must jump out of the framework and the concepts of empirical science. In order for you to enter that dimension, you must comply with the forms of that dimension, and only then can you enter it.

The distance from an atom to a molecule, as science understands it, is approximately two million atoms lined up, and only then can an atom reach a molecule. That is to say that this distance that it can understand is already quite vast. You cannot understand it from the standpoint of this present empirical scientific model of mankind. Then, please try to think about it for a moment.

Isn’t it a dimensional layer in between from an atom to its nuclei? How great then is the dimensional distance between the nuclei and a quark? What about between a quark and a neutrino? Of course, the current science of mankind can only understand as far as neutrinos. Man cannot see them except for detecting them with apparatus to know their mode of existence. In fact, it is not known how far away they are from the original source of matter!

What I am talking about is the simplest form of dimensional existence. All physical substances of our mankind, including all substances that you cannot see in the air as well as those substances that we can see such as iron, cement, animals, plants, matter, and the human body, are composed of molecules. Mankind just exists on this plane of molecules, just like a 3-D painting. You live on this plane and you cannot escape it. Mankind’s science is also limited within this one dimension which it cannot even break through.

Yet, people still claim how developed science is and disregard all other theories. Mankind’s technology cannot reach a higher understanding of the universe. If it were really able to break through this dimensional layer, it would see the mode of existence of life and the mode of existence of matter in other dimensions, as well as the structures in them made by time and space. However, our practitioners can see it. Only Buddhas are the greatest scientists.

When I talked about opening Tianmu (the third eye), I mentioned this issue. One can avoid using eyes to see things and look through this Tianmu of ours, namely between the two eyebrows, or from the Shangen as the Taoist School calls it. At the root of your nose, a passageway is opened directly to your Pineal Body. It is called the Pineal Body in medical science. Practitioners in the Taoist School call it the Niwan Palace, which refers to the same thing. However, in the front part of this Pineal Body, medical scientists have already found it equipped with all the component structures of a human eye.

Modern medical scientists find it very strange. Why is there an eye inside? They consider it a vestigial eye, and they still explain these things with the theory of evolution. In fact, it just exists this way, and it is not at all degenerated. When one avoids the flesh eyes, of course, when these flesh eyes have been cultivated, the flesh eyes can also penetrate and also have this kind of supernormal capability. The Buddha Fa is boundless."

- An excerpt from the 1996 Fa Lecture in Sydney, Australia : https://falundafa.org/eng/eng/lectures/1996L_2018.html


I believe Nikola Tesla really hit the nail on the head when he said:

“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”

EnergyGem wrote: I am talking about particles that are matter. Strictly speaking, Photons are not matter.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about elementary particles when you said "elementary particles". I guess I should have put words in your mouth and not listened to what you actually said. Now you had to shift the goal post. I'm so sorry. My bad.

A photon is a "particle of light." However, photons are not considered to be matter because they have no mass... - https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3tix50/are_photons_matter_and_do_they_have_mass_how_much/

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you don't take reddit as your source on matters of science. W and Z bosons are also not matter particles, but their mass is orders of magnitude greater than that of quarks, and still a hundred times heavier than that of a proton or a neutron. The reason photons are not considered to be matter has nothing to do with their masslessness, but with their spin. Photons are bosons. Matter is made of fermions. Though a particle is elementary if it has no underlying structure, which can be the case for fermions and for bosons alike. The photon and the gluon are not matter, but they are both lighter than the electron, and they are both elementary particles. Your initial claim, whether you admit to making it or not, was false.

So neutrinos are actually the smallest type of elementary particle of matter that has been detected by science at it's current stage.

Correct.

The reason why science has restricted itself is because what it can't see or detect yet with it's scientific instruments it rejects and denies outright and rigidly holds on to it's current scientific axioms.

Nonsense. If it did that, it wouldn't progress at all. It wouldn't make useful predictions and inform development of new technologies if it did that. People wouldn't trust the words of scientific experts or the devices they use to assist them in life if it were so. You wouldn't be here trying to weave science into your woo-woo, if science was like that. You can't have it both ways. If it is rigid and narrow-minded, and bars itself from making meaningful progress, and yet supports your woo-woo, then, well... you can finish this thought yourself, I'm sure.

Yes, electrons at a very microcosmic level are just like planets orbiting around a sun.

No, they are nothing like that, no matter how often you keep repeating it. Electrons are charged and charge has a sign. Mass does not. If electrons orbited their nucleus like a planet does its sun, they would drop down into the nucleus. There would be no such thing as a stable atom if that were the case. I don't care if that's what your spiritual great enlightened masters revealed to you. If that is what they said, then they don't know what they are talking about. And instead of finding that out, you chose to just follow what they say, not question it. Tell me again how it's people of science who are rigidly holding on to their own axioms because of emotions. How much of the teachings you take from your masters have you bothered to scrutinize lately?
Oh, and before you say that I take my lecturers' words for granted - The device you use to tell me what you have to say only works because we know enough about electrodynamics to exploit it for radio communications. The workings of nature that allow you to speak to me literally prohibit the electrons from orbiting nuclei.

I know you have reservations about this but I will share you an excerpt from A Buddha Law lecture by Master Li Hongzhi (the author of Zhuan Falun) where he addresses this point:

Oh, great, more scriptures. Sure, let's say what new pseudoscientific gibberish your religion has yet to offer.

... those of us who have studied physics know that molecules, atoms, nuclei, quarks, and neutrinos are each a layer of particles.

I have studied physics and I have no clue what he means by "layers". I guess molecules are made of atoms, atoms of a nucleus and electrons, nuclei of nucleons, and nucleons of quarks. Neutrinos are the odd one out here, though, they have no such relation to the others.
May I point out at this point that a nucleon is not fully described by quarks alone. Nucleons consist of three quarks, but the sum of their masses is about two orders of magnitude smaller than the mass of the nucleon. Most of a nucleon's mass is actually carried by the gluons I mentioned in the last post. But wait! Gluons are (supposed to be) massless! How can they contribute? That's right. Mass is more complicated than just lumps of weight. And "those of us who have studied physics" understand that. Moving on...

The largest things that we see with human eyes are planets,...

Really? What about stars/suns? What about distant galaxies?

... and the smallest things that we can see under the microscope are molecules.

No, that depends on what we mean by a microscope. There are microscopes that allow us to resolve atoms just fine.

However developed a computer is, it cannot match the human brain.

That depends entirely on what one means by matching. There is nothing a computer can do that a human in principle couldn't. But some tasks that took humans entire lifetimes a few hundred years ago took computers only a few days in 1996 and mere hours or even minutes today, and with far fewer errors. With those tasks I'd say it is us who can't match the performance of our computers.

Now the human brain is still a mystery. Therefore, the science of mankind is still very shallow.

Oh, nice, so this spiritual scholar barely bothered to scratch the surface and concluded there is nothing underneath. Let's hope he doesn't get to be a helmsman on the Titanic.

Modern scientists can only understand an atom as a point,...

Now this is getting embarassing. Not only is this false, but this even contradicts what was said earlier. The author already pointed out nuclei and even quarks, i.e. a substructure of the atom, and now he says that in science atoms are seen as points? Come on, if they're going to lie about science, the least they could do is keep it consistent!

The distance from an atom to a molecule, as science understands it, is approximately two million atoms lined up, and only then can an atom reach a molecule.

I'm not sure what the distance from an atom to a molecule is, or what it means for an atom to "reach" a molecule. That being said, the radius of a hydrogen molecule is about 0.53Å, while the distance between two nuclei in a dihydrogen (H₂) molecule is 0.74Å. We could say that the longest end-to-end distance of a hydrogen molecule is one atomic radius on either side and the internuclear distance inbetween, resulting in something like 1.8Å, but we can be generous and use its kinetic diameter of a whopping 2.89Å. Again, for generosity's sake we'll take the smallest estimate of the diameter of atomic hydrogen at 1.06Å. So how many atoms can we "line up" before their total length reaches the size of an admittedly small molecule? Well, we are dividing something that is less than three units by something that is just above one unit so... still less than 3. Something like 2.7. That's about a million times less than the "two million" claimed.
Okay, so what if we do the same for a larger molecule? How about carbon tetrachloride, the famous refrigerant and cleaning compound? Now that's made of carbon and chlorine, but let's for the sake of generosity again compare its kinetic diameter to the atomic diameter of atomic hydrogen.
5.90Å / 1.06Å = 5.57
We're still off by a factor of about half a million. It's almost like the "two million atoms lined up" figure is completely made up with not a single second spent actually looking up the question, let alone investigating it.

Isn’t it a dimensional layer in between from an atom to its nuclei?

Every atom has exactly one nucleus. The comparison of an atom's size to that of its nucleus actually gets a lot closer to the two million, but still not quite there. In the case of atomic hydrogen the size ratio is about 100 000, still 20 times less than two million, but at least not a million times. With heavier elements the number gets smaller though, because the shell size grows less with proton count than the size of the nucleus.

How great then is the dimensional distance between the nuclei and a quark?

Depends on what we mean by the sizes respectively. One can define effective scattering radii for the quarks but the actual distance anything can close in to them depends only on the energy invested. The quark is point-like, it has no extension at all. So in a sense, the size ratio of a nucleus (no matter how large or small) to a quark is infinite. The only problem is though... quarks cannot exist alone. It is possible to find or to create free electrons, free protons, even free neutrons, but free quarks cannot exist. You try and pull apart a particle made of two quarks and you'll either end up with two such particles or give up before it gets that far.

What about between a quark and a neutrino?

Quarks have a diameter of zero and neutrinos have a diameter of zero. There is no size difference between them. We can measure that.

Only Buddhas are the greatest scientists.

Well it's not much of a compliment to say that someone is a greatest scientist, if science itself is oh so unfit to find out what ever magical satisfaction you're asking for, is it. "Science is pointless, also my magnificent friends are best at it." Yeah, good job.
Also, if these Buddhas are so great at science, how come everything they seem to be telling you about science is either wrong, or nonsensical, or both?

However, in the front part of this Pineal Body, medical scientists have already found it equipped with all the component structures of a human eye.

Yea, all the component structures... except the lens, a diaphragm, a retina, an optic nerve, optical muscles, a vitreous body... But everything else, absolutely!

Modern medical scientists find it very strange. Why is there an eye inside? They consider it a vestigial eye, and they still explain these things with the theory of evolution.

No. Nobody but clueless woosters keep pushing this nonsense. There is no ancestor we have that has anything like a third organ that is structurally similar to any other eyes that ancestor might have had at the time, at their forehead. Not in our recent ancestry and not in our distant ancestry all the way to our common ancestor with insects. Neither do we. This is just a straight up lie.

I believe Nikola Tesla really hit the nail on the head when he said:

“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”

It's funny then, how quite the opposite is true. For centuries thinkers were trying to think of all things at once, physical nature, the human spirit, the gods, the arts, and morals and they progressed from living in mud huts to living in mud huts reinforced by some straw - except I guess their kings who had stone palaces build for themselves, with tiny windows for daylight and holes in the ground for toilets... And then the printing press came along, the dreadful physical sciences followed, and within a few decades life expectancy grew from 30 to 70, and travel changed from a likely death sentence to a leisure activity. I don't know if that Tesla quote is genuine or not, and we can say what we will about his importance in the history of electrical engineering, but the contents of that quote are garbage, much like your grasp of science, which, for the record, nobody is forcing you to use to justify your woo. You could have argued philosophically or spiritually. You chose not to. You chose to talk of things you clearly have no clue about. Any embarassment you are now enduring is all a consequences of your decision.

Hi EnergyGem,

Just so you know, I am reading your suggested book. Zhuan Falun is not my cuppa, but I respect any sort of seeking because of what it can provide in terms of self discovery. No effort is wasted, hmm?

I'd like to explore that more when I get a bit farther.

My favorite sort of meditation is the one suggested by John Kabbat Zinn in "Wherever You Go, There You Are"

Alexandre Orion suggested this when I spoke with him this morning: https://iai.tv/video/philosophy-bites-back

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about elementary particles when you said "elementary particles". I guess I should have put words in your mouth and not listened to what you actually said. Now you had to shift the goal post. I'm so sorry. My bad.

You wrote: "This makes it sound like neutrinos are at some kind of more "microscopic" level than electrons, nucleons, or quarks. This is incorrect."

And yet: "The mass of the neutrino is much smaller than that of the other known elementary particles." - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

So you were wrong.

Nonsense. If it did that, it wouldn't progress at all. It wouldn't make useful predictions and inform development of new technologies if it did that. People wouldn't trust the words of scientific experts or the devices they use to assist them in life if it were so. You wouldn't be here trying to weave science into your woo-woo, if science was like that. You can't have it both ways. If it is rigid and narrow-minded, and bars itself from making meaningful progress, and yet supports your woo-woo, then, well... you can finish this thought yourself, I'm sure.

I never said science doesn't make progress. It however stifles itself by labeling everything not understood by current scientific methods and instruments as 'pseudoscience'. If science broadened it's thinking it would as Tesla had said, make great strides in it's knowledge and insights into the mysteries of the universe. Our current scientific path is not the only way to understand life, the human body and the universe. There are other paths to knowledge and wisdom that are far deeper and more encompassing then what our current scientific paradigm has come to uncover.

No, they are nothing like that, no matter how often you keep repeating it. Electrons are charged and charge has a sign. Mass does not. If electrons orbited their nucleus like a planet does its sun, they would drop down into the nucleus. There would be no such thing as a stable atom if that were the case. I don't care if that's what your spiritual great enlightened masters revealed to you. If that is what they said, then they don't know what they are talking about. And instead of finding that out, you chose to just follow what they say, not question it. Tell me again how it's people of science who are rigidly holding on to their own axioms because of emotions. How much of the teachings you take from your masters have you bothered to scrutinize lately?
Oh, and before you say that I take my lecturers' words for granted - The device you use to tell me what you have to say only works because we know enough about electrodynamics to exploit it for radio communications. The workings of nature that allow you to speak to me literally prohibit the electrons from orbiting nuclei.

You are still trying to understand multidimensional concepts from this dimension. You cannot understand these things if you stubbornly hold on to these limited scientific concepts and understandings. Science is now theorizing that other dimensions exist but they cannot see them:

https://bigthink.com/philip-perry/physicists-outline-10-different-dimensions-and-how-youd-experience-them

Great awakened ones can tangibly see into these dimensions and many others that science hasn't detected at it's current stage. Space/Time are completely different in different dimensions. Time itself is different across these dimensions. The 'electron cloud' of an atom is only a cloud from our dimension. If one had a way to pierce into that microcosmic dimension they would conform to that dimensions space/time constraints and would see that the rotation of those electrons are very much the same as our solar system.

I have studied physics and I have no clue what he means by "layers". I guess molecules are made of atoms, atoms of a nucleus and electrons, nuclei of nucleons, and nucleons of quarks. Neutrinos are the odd one out here, though, they have no such relation to the others.
May I point out at this point that a nucleon is not fully described by quarks alone. Nucleons consist of three quarks, but the sum of their masses is about two orders of magnitude smaller than the mass of the nucleon. Most of a nucleon's mass is actually carried by the gluons I mentioned in the last post. But wait! Gluons are (supposed to be) massless! How can they contribute? That's right. Mass is more complicated than just lumps of weight. And "those of us who have studied physics" understand that. Moving on...

In terms of layers, Master Li Hongzhi talks about this:

"This cosmos is so vast and its structure is so complex. I’ve told you about the composition of dimensions. For example, matter is composed of molecules and even more microscopic particles. The dimension that we know of is also composed of these particles. Today, the particles known to science include molecules, atoms, neutrons, atomic nuclei, and electrons; and then there are quarks and neutrinos. What’s further down is unknown to today’s science.

So what I’ve said is that the realm of each level of these particles is what we call the plane of that level. Actually, particles aren’t distributed on a plane; instead, within a given level, they exist everywhere—not on a plane. Humankind doesn’t have a term for it, so we’ll just call it a plane; this is the only way we can describe it. Right within that realm—within that layer of particles’ realm—a dimension is formed.
Between particles are dimensions, and inside particles themselves are also dimensions. Yet particles can also make up particles of different sizes. Then, among the particles of different sizes that are composed of one particular particle are again dimensions. This is the concept of dimensions that I explained to you last time.

I’ve always said that between atoms and molecules is a vast dimension. We humans live between the layer of the largest particles made up of molecules, and planets that we see, which are a layer of particles. Humans live in that dimension. A planet is also a particle. Going further, the Milky Way galaxy also has an outer shell. Might the Milky Way galaxy and the countless other galaxies spread throughout the cosmos form a dimension? They’re also interrelated. Then beyond the galaxies, there is still another cosmic expanse—then is this cosmic expanse a layer of particles? It sure is a layer of particles. The cosmos is incredibly vast—there’s simply no way to describe how vast it is.

Furthermore, three thousand universes like the one we inhabit make up a larger layer of universe, which has an outer shell and is a particle of a universe of an even larger layer. Yet the particles I just talked about was expanding from just one point. As a matter of fact, particles of each layer are spread throughout the entire cosmos."

Really? What about stars/suns? What about distant galaxies?

In regards to macroscopic particles, the planets we see are considered a single particle in the macrocosm.

No, that depends on what we mean by a microscope. There are microscopes that allow us to resolve atoms just fine.

No light microscope can see atoms. So it does depend on what 'microscope' meant in terms of that statement.

That depends entirely on what one means by matching. There is nothing a computer can do that a human in principle couldn't. But some tasks that took humans entire lifetimes a few hundred years ago took computers only a few days in 1996 and mere hours or even minutes today, and with far fewer errors. With those tasks I'd say it is us who can't match the performance of our computers.

The brain is actually multidimensional in nature: https://www.sciencealert.com/science-discovers-human-brain-works-up-to-11-dimensions

A computer can do lighting fast calculations but there are many mysteries about the brain such as the mysteries of consciousness, how memory is stored and how the brain processes vision among many others that science still doesn't understand:

http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/subjective-experience-brain

Now this is getting embarassing. Not only is this false, but this even contradicts what was said earlier. The author already pointed out nuclei and even quarks, i.e. a substructure of the atom, and now he says that in science atoms are seen as points? Come on, if they're going to lie about science, the least they could do is keep it consistent!

No you just didn't complete the full sentence:

"Modern scientists can only understand an atom as a point, one of its small structures. In fact, the place where atoms exist is also a plane, and the physical dimension formed by such a plane is also quite huge. It is only that what you have discovered is a point. Within this plane then, how big is this dimension?"

So there's no contradiction whatsoever, you just omitted the full sentence and the context. An atom is indeed a small structure.

Well it's not much of a compliment to say that someone is a greatest scientist, if science itself is oh so unfit to find out what ever magical satisfaction you're asking for, is it. "Science is pointless, also my magnificent friends are best at it." Yeah, good job.
Also, if these Buddhas are so great at science, how come everything they seem to be telling you about science is either wrong, or nonsensical, or both?

Buddhas are indeed the greatest scientists but it's not the 'science' that is understood by today's scientific establishment. It is a far greater and deeper and more profound science, a science that is multidimensional in nature and transcends the limited knowledge that our current scientific paradigm understands.

Yea, all the component structures... except the lens, a diaphragm, a retina, an optic nerve, optical muscles, a vitreous body... But everything else, absolutely!

The pineal gland is photoreceptive just like our eyes:

"Five years after the publication of Zhuan Falun, Lucas et al. (5) published a paper in Science, one of the most well known scientific journals. They described several experiments they did with mice that genetically lacked retinal photoreceptors. The experiments revealed that photic suppression of pineal melatonin remained unaffected in mice genetically lacking cones or both rods and cones. That is to say, mice genetically lacking retinal photoreceptors responded normally to light. What is especially noticeable is that one group of mice genetically lacking retinal photoreceptors also had defection in their optic signal transduction pathways and yet their photic suppression of pineal melatonin remained unaffected.

It is well known, with neither retinal photoreceptors nor optic signal transduction pathways, that the conventional visual pathway cannot be established. The authors were unable to explain how the pineal concealed in the skull could respond to light."

https://www.pureinsight.org/node/164

It's funny then, how quite the opposite is true. For centuries thinkers were trying to think of all things at once, physical nature, the human spirit, the gods, the arts, and morals and they progressed from living in mud huts to living in mud huts reinforced by some straw - except I guess their kings who had stone palaces build for themselves, with tiny windows for daylight and holes in the ground for toilets... And then the printing press came along, the dreadful physical sciences followed, and within a few decades life expectancy grew from 30 to 70, and travel changed from a likely death sentence to a leisure activity. I don't know if that Tesla quote is genuine or not, and we can say what we will about his importance in the history of electrical engineering, but the contents of that quote are garbage, much like your grasp of science, which, for the record, nobody is forcing you to use to justify your woo. You could have argued philosophically or spiritually. You chose not to. You chose to talk of things you clearly have no clue about. Any embarassment you are now enduring is all a consequences of your decision.

Ah, Telsa's quote is garage? Quite alot of hubris there. What have you invented that changed the world, care to share it?

Something is garbage if it doesn't fit in to current science's understandings? Thank you for making my point for me.

I suppose Isaac Newton's quote was garbage too:

"About the times of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”


Science has made many notable achievements but for it to progress it needs to open it's mind to new avenues and understandings. There are many methods to plumb the mysteries of life, the human body and the universe and contemporary science is but one avenue.

I will leave with with another excerpt from Master Li Hongzhi where he talks more on this matter:



“It’s really hard to use human language to describe the range of the Three Realms. Now when I tell you how large the Three Realms is, I’m using concepts from human sensual and visual perceptions, and from the particles that are at the same level. The biggest difference between how divine beings and how human beings look at the cosmos is that divine beings don’t look at things on the basis of the structure of this one layer of particles.

They simultaneously look at things from all directions and three-dimensionally, on the basis of the combined cosmic structures of the different layers of particles below that and the different layers of particles above that. They can see the whole structural appearance of things at different levels in the cosmos, and see what they look like on a fundamental level.

Human beings, on the other hand, can only see this world that’s composed of this molecular layer of particles; they can only see things that are composed of this layer of particles. But the cosmos isn’t composed of just this one layer of particles. Human beings can’t see the true picture; human beings can only see this one layer.

This results from the separation and restriction that’s due to various factors, and the limitations of the human eye’s structure, all of which are meant to produce this false picture of things for human beings.

Humans just aren’t allowed to see the true picture. In other words, even when it comes to things that are composed of this layer of particles, human beings aren’t allowed to see the full picture, and human beings are given this kind of eye precisely to limit their perception of the cosmos, which makes for this culture here. Everything has been created with a certain purpose.

You know, besides infrared and ultraviolet light, there are other invisible kinds of light and inaudible sounds, but they do exist. Today’s scientific devices can detect and recognize that they exist, but human eyes can’t see them.

In other words, human eyes aren’t even allowed to see all the things that are at this level of the human world. The kind of world human beings are allowed to see is deliberately designed so that human beings’ cognition is stabilized in this state.

But actually it’s not absolutely stable or impenetrable—through cultivation a person can break through it. But how much a person can break through and how much of the truth of the cosmos he can see depend on the cultivator’s level. Conversely, the more materialistic a person is, the more he’s trapped inside this maze. The more materialistic a person is, the more so his thoughts and understandings are trapped in this “reality,” and the more he is within this “reality.”


Rosalyn J wrote:

Hi EnergyGem,

Just so you know, I am reading your suggested book. Zhuan Falun is not my cuppa, but I respect any sort of seeking because of what it can provide in terms of self discovery. No effort is wasted, hmm?

I'd like to explore that more when I get a bit farther.

My favorite sort of meditation is the one suggested by John Kabbat Zinn in "Wherever You Go, There You Are"

Alexandre Orion suggested this when I spoke with him this morning: iai.tv/video/philosophy-bites-back

Hey Rosalyn, no worries. Everyone has free will and chooses the path that's right for them. I also have been a seeker of Truth for a long time and have come to understand that there is far more to the universe and life than meets the eye.

Thanks for the quote and link, i'll check it out.

EnergyGem wrote: You wrote: "This makes it sound like neutrinos are at some kind of more "microscopic" level than electrons, nucleons, or quarks. This is incorrect."

And yet: "The mass of the neutrino is much smaller than that of the other known elementary particles." - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

So you were wrong.

No. Neutrinos are exactly as large as electrons and quarks: pointlike. They are lighter, not smaller. They are not however, the lightest of elementary particles. They are only the lightest matter particles, which is not something that Wikipedia quote makes any effort to emphasize, and not something you made any effort to look up until I pointed out that actually, there are even lighter elementary particles.

Our current scientific path is not the only way to understand life, the human body and the universe. There are other paths to knowledge and wisdom...

I agree. And I invited you multiple times to use those as much as you please. I made very clear that you don't have to use science at all in attempts to support your woo. But if you do, you'll do well to present scientific findings accurately. If you happen to make a mistake, nothing wrong with that, someone can come in and correct it. You then have the choice of acknolwedging the mistake and attempting at salvaging your conclusion, or - as you are choosing to do instead - either shifting the goal post, pretending like you never made the mistake (like with what is the lightest elementary particle), or even doubling down on the false presentations from earlier (like your insistance that electrons orbit their nuclei, which we know they do not). You don't have to use any science at all for the wisdom you are trying to spread. You just don't get to lie about science unimpeded here.

The 'electron cloud' of an atom is only a cloud from our dimension. If one had a way to pierce into that microcosmic dimension they would conform to that dimensions space/time constraints and would see that the rotation of those electrons are very much the same as our solar system.

You are shifting the goal post again. Your guru's initial claim was that electrons behaved around the nucleus "really no different" from how the Earth orbits the Sun. When I pointed out that actually they are completely incomparable systems, you quoted another guru who said that the electron was orbiting the nucleus very fast and that with the timescales we are stuck living with we cannot resolve it and therefore throw our hands up in the air and proclaim "uncertainty". Then I pointed out that no, they are not rotating too fast for us to see either and that we would know what it would look like if they did. I also pointed out that uncertainty is fundamental, and not a matter of measurement precision, and that this can be proven mathematically. So now you say that the electrons are still rotating around their nucleus, just not the real electrons in real space-time that we can really see and really predict to a precision matched by absolutely no other field of study in history, but woo-electrons spinning around woo-nuclei in woo-space-woo-time. Tell me again about emotional attachments to sacred ideas that people of science are too arrogant and tight-minded to let go of. Yes, sure, if you enrich your claim with so much magical handwavery, I can object to it no longer. And don't worry. You don't need to admit that your masters are wrong every time they open their mouth about matters of science. That you need to employ such dishonest tactics is admission enough for all to see.

In terms of layers, Master Li Hongzhi talks about this:

Yea, no, I'm done responding to your scriptures. Sure, it looks like one can't get past a single paragraph before encountering the first lies, but this is getting boring and you have better ways of promoting your religion. If you have something interesting to say, I'm all ears, but your masters are not here to talk with us so I'm not here to talk back to them. If we are going to discuss any more profound misunderstandings of physics, they shall be coming from someone who is actually here to present theirs themselves.

The largest things that we see with human eyes are planets,...

Really? What about stars/suns? What about distant galaxies?

In regards to macroscopic particles, the planets we see are considered a single particle in the macrocosm.

Irrelevant. As you see, the quote I was responding to said that the largest things that we see with human eyes are planets. That's false. In fact, most planets we actually can't see with human eyes, and most of the things on the night sky that we can see are many orders of magnitude larger than any planet we can see. We can't see many galaxies with the naked eye, but some we can. And no, "in regards to macroscopic particles", those stars many times larger than any planet we can see can be "considered a single particle in the macrocosm". And at the appropriate scales, so can galaxies. Quit trying to shift the goal post. The quote you posted did not specify these "regards" you point at, and it would be wrong even if it had.

... and the smallest things that we can see under the microscope are molecules.

No, that depends on what we mean by a microscope. There are microscopes that allow us to resolve atoms just fine.

No light microscope can see atoms. So it does depend on what 'microscope' meant in terms of that statement.

If I took 'microscope' to mean 'light microscope', the statement would also be wrong. You can't see molecules through a light microscope. But there are microscopes that can show molecules. I've actually used one myself just a few months back. And there are microscopes that can show atoms, too. I haven't used one like that yet, though I know people I can ask if I needed an image like that. But yes, different microscopes can resolve different scales. In some sense particle accelerators can also be seen as microscopes, you know. In that case we can see far into the subatomic, too. This idea that the smallest thing any microscope can show us is a molecule is frankly false. But I was feeling generous so I let it depend on what we mean by a microscope.

A computer can do lighting fast calculations but there are many mysteries about the brain such as the mysteries of consciousness, how memory is stored and how the brain processes vision among many others that science still doesn't understand:

Irrelevant. The claim was that "However developed a computer is, it cannot match the human brain." to which I said that this depends on what "matching" means. Computers vastly outperform our brains in most tasks they are designed to do.

"Modern scientists can only understand an atom as a point, one of its small structures. In fact, the place where atoms exist is also a plane, and the physical dimension formed by such a plane is also quite huge. It is only that what you have discovered is a point. Within this plane then, how big is this dimension?"

So there's no contradiction whatsoever, you just omitted the full sentence and the context. An atom is indeed a small structure.

Looks like a contradiction to me, sorry. We can't model something like it is a point and has structure. That's why atoms, at least in atomic and nuclear and particle physics, are not modeled as a point. Yet your master says that "modern scientists can only understand an atom as a point." This is both false and inconsistent with what else he says.

Buddhas are indeed the greatest scientists but it's not the 'science' that is understood by today's scientific establishment. It is a far greater and deeper and more profound science, a science that is multidimensional in nature and transcends the limited knowledge that our current scientific paradigm understands.

Let's say it how it is, shall we. It doesn't "transcend" our limited knowledge, it "contradicts" it. And yes, this is a problem for them. Because our "limited knowledge", despite its limits, actually works. It tripled life expectancy, flooded (some of) our lives with luxury so much that "boredom" has become an actual problem some of us get to have sometimes, and allowed your masters so much time on their hands that they can sit in the comfort of their ergonomic armchairs and speak of the primitivity of the very same science that enabled them spewing that message around the globe. If anything fits the famous picture of a man sitting in a tree, chipping at the very branch that supports him, this would be it.

Yea, all the component structures... except the lens, a diaphragm, a retina, an optic nerve, optical muscles, a vitreous body... But everything else, absolutely!

The pineal gland is photoreceptive just like our eyes:

"Five years after the publication of Zhuan Falun, Lucas et al. (5) published a paper in Science, one of the most well known scientific journals. They described several experiments they did with mice that genetically lacked retinal photoreceptors. The experiments revealed that photic suppression of pineal melatonin remained unaffected in mice genetically lacking cones or both rods and cones. That is to say, mice genetically lacking retinal photoreceptors responded normally to light. What is especially noticeable is that one group of mice genetically lacking retinal photoreceptors also had defection in their optic signal transduction pathways and yet their photic suppression of pineal melatonin remained unaffected.

It is well known, with neither retinal photoreceptors nor optic signal transduction pathways, that the conventional visual pathway cannot be established. The authors were unable to explain how the pineal concealed in the skull could respond to light."

https://www.pureinsight.org/node/164

So just like I said, then. None of the component structure. It'd do you well to read your own sources, sometimes. All the less reason for me to read them, I guess, if you can't even be bothered to.

Ah, Telsa's quote is garage? [sic] Quite alot of hubris there. What have you invented that changed the world, care to share it?

Nothing.

Something is garbage if it doesn't fit in to current science's understandings?

No, something is a garbage description of a state of affairs or sequence of events if it fails to match said state of affairs or sequence of events on any level. If someone said the sky is purple, or the earth was flat or some ten thousand years old, I'd call that garbage. And if someone says that a lot more progress could be made if science ceased to focus on nature, that saying is garbage, too. In the passage that you quoted from my post I admitted for any amount of praise and acknolwedgement of Tesla's importance to the history of electrical engineering. I did not say he was a prophet saint, though. If he said something that is garbage (one should note here that I did express my doubts that the quote was genuine, by the way), then he said something that is garbage. I take on no "sin against science" for recognizing it as such. A lot of very smart people say very dumb things, sometimes, and there is nothing wrong with that. Tesla, with all his achievements, is still a human, and it's okay for him to say something stupid. It also doesn't discredit everything else he did in my eyes, because I never demanded perfection from him. The world isn't so black-and-white. Maybe you need to open your mind to a more nuanced perspective.

I suppose Isaac Newton's quote was garbage too:

"About the times of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”

I imagine Newton said many much dumber things than this, too. I suspect he also had a much clearer grasp on physics than any of the Buddhas' and spiritual teachers whose words you swallow without question, if what came out in this discussion is any indication. What's your point?

Science has made many notable achievements but for it to progress it needs to open it's mind to new avenues and understandings. There are many methods to plumb the mysteries of life, the human body and the universe and contemporary science is but one avenue.

Yes, it is. There is therefore absolutely no reason to be misrepresenting it. You could just as well try and support your spirituality through any of those other avenues, but instead you elected to base it on misunderstandings (if I'm feeling that charitable) of science.
*shrug*

If someone makes scientific claims, they shouldn't be surprised if someone fact checks them. No one will say someone is wrong if they're making garden variety spiritual claims, but the minute someone tries to get profound and talk about some subject they really don't understand, they deserve whatever factual misrepresentations they've made to be brought to light.

Something as simple as the neutrino claim could be corrected by a high school student. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of half of the terms used. Photons, if they have rest mass (it's been a while since I took a physics class tbh, so I might not remember this correctly), are necessarily magnitudes smaller than the smallest possible physical constituent.

I don't think it's too uncommon in the bid for legitimization.

I remember when the Jedi community routinely sought for the validity of energy manipulation with works like the celestine prophecy and the field. Both of which I had as lessons in 2012.

I remember watching "What the Bleep Do We Know" and even Zeihtgiest.


People come from all walks of life to study here. I think it's most important to lead socratically and allow people to come to their own realization.

We might be right, but its a bit like me trying to convince my Mormon friend that their is no historical evidence for the native Americans being descendants of Jews. The more I push with logic, the less they yield.

2.
A modern day Jeddist acknowledges the Force. Descriptions often come from our own choices. Good and Bad- Light and Dark- Harmony and Unbalance-theses are our own descriptions of what we see actually present and how we are relative to it. Our labels describe but can never fully identify the Force. Not even its name. A Jeddist can search and dwell in the ebb and flow, the result is not from the seeker but from the flow- from the Force. A Jeddist can dwell there and leave and return- it all depends on them. With or without, the Force is.


https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Clergy/123569-a-modern-day-jeddist-book-of-change-a-shepards-journal


I could very well be describing the same others use other definitions for. To me : that’s a connection I can’t explain and don’t try.
That’s just me. Just a lowly practitioner.