Weekday Doctrine Meditations 13:00 utc(Ajax)

(15:15:25) Rosalyn_J: I'm getting off the bus shortly
(15:15:37) Twigga: Should I did out the next teaching?
(15:15:45) Twigga: *dig
(15:17:40) Twigga: How've you been Thomas?
(15:21:20) Twigga: 9. Jedi have integrity. We are authentic to what we believe and are open, honest and true to our purpose and our minds. We remove all masks to reveal ourselves as courageous and noble of heart. We do not hide from fear of damage to our image because we know that our image cannot be blemished from the words and actions of others.
(15:22:36) Rosalyn_J: Nice
(15:22:43) thomaswfaulkner: I slept well. Sorry, I had a co-worker come in to talk about her...medical issues.
(15:23:09) Twigga: At least it's an open working environment
(15:23:21) Rosalyn_J: Man, that is a hard one
(15:23:28) Twigga: I know.
(15:24:13) Twigga: I don't wanna go first
(15:25:13) Twigga: It's ... well, the thing is when I get with it, with the ingtegrity thing, I am so utterly a kid; not a courageous noble heart! But, I can grow up still.
(15:25:18) Rosalyn_J: How do we deal with this online?
(15:25:39) Rosalyn_J: Integrity
(15:26:00) Twigga: I just trust people.
(15:26:04) Twigga: They trust back.
(15:26:35) Rosalyn_J: It has at times been easy for me to adopt an integrity mask
(15:27:06) Twigga: That's going to be a pain to take of, and no doubt!
(15:27:58) Twigga: But I think it's necessary for roles.
(15:28:19) Twigga: Like when judges put on wigs (UK) or police people uniforms.
(15:28:41) Twigga: they're not necessarily that "integrity" -ous in real life.
(15:28:57) Twigga: But they are for that time, as they are making those decisions, in those roles.
(15:29:09) Twigga: And I think that's possible with enough self-knowledge.
(15:29:20) Rosalyn_J: We only see people in "that" moment
(15:29:56) Rosalyn_J: Online its easy to evoke
(15:30:01) Twigga: By "that" moment do you meand when they're dressed up?
(15:30:17) Rosalyn_J: Trust, wisdom, integrity etc
(15:30:31) Twigga: Ah - I see you.
(15:31:18) Twigga: I could be a 7 ft high wrestler in Kazakstan...?
(15:31:25) Twigga: that issue?
(15:32:38) Rosalyn_J: Yeah
(15:32:44) Twigga: I'm just dressed up as a ... however tall 1.64m is girl.
(15:32:57) Rosalyn_J: But a black belt, be seen as one
(15:33:29) thomaswfaulkner: I use this teaching to help me align my doings with by being. We can take the burden of responsibility of our thoughts off our sense of "suchness" because they aren't really something of us, rather than just noise. I concentrate on the being and doing part. Do the things I do, morally align me with, and help shape my personal moral code.
(15:34:52) Twigga: ^ With very high integrity yourself, and no fear, you can open up. Give give give, they'll be sharing back; and eventually, if there's a mask, it'll crack.
(15:35:14) Rosalyn_J: Yes
(15:35:32) Rosalyn_J: I swear the teachings build
(15:35:52) Rosalyn_J: Yesterday we talked about patience
(15:35:54) Twigga: But it takes a lot of time and investment in that relationship and a willingness to open yourself up like crazy, AND a realisation it might be your own mask that breaks
(15:36:46) Rosalyn_J: Patience also comes into play because it allows us to discover when we are wearing a mask
(15:36:58) Twigga: It also takes a lack of prejudice as well - taking what that person says of themselves on its own merit - not being swayed by other people's voices, or even your own in your own head.
(15:37:40) Rosalyn_J: That
(15:37:52) Rosalyn_J: Is a learned skill
(15:38:57) Twigga: Watching babies, it seems that Everything beyond crying, eating and pooping is
(15:39:43) Temple remote: Rosalyn_J has been logged out (Timeout).
(15:39:44) Temple remote: Rosalyn_J logs into the Chat.
(15:39:58) Rosalyn_J: Right
(15:41:40) Twigga: You know when you cant find you glasses 'cause you slid them up onto your head?
(15:42:04) Rosalyn_J: Yes
(15:42:10) Twigga: You forget they're there - you can't feel them.
(15:42:22) Rosalyn_J: Though such hasn't happened in a while
(15:42:34) Rosalyn_J: (Nod)
(15:43:44) Twigga: For me that's one of the scary things about moving from IP to Apprenticeship - if it were done, it'd be asking me to hang up any and all coats I happened to be wearing; take off my glasses - including the ones I've forgotten I had on - and there'd be someone else to say - those glasses, they're on your head!
(15:44:18) Twigga: It might be a bit surprising
(15:45:39) Twigga: There's a lot you can do to spot coats in IP - but each time I find a new layer it's a surprise. Doing it with someone else is; well, I dunno.
(15:46:41) Rosalyn_J: It'll be good
(15:46:48) Rosalyn_J: It'll be hard
(15:47:23) Twigga: And I suppose that's the same level you're asking for when you're wanting to find out if someone's a needlecrafting Scotsman or a rugby playing New Zealander
(15:47:35) Twigga: That's why the trust is the thing.
(15:48:06) Twigga: "are open, honest and true to our purpose and our minds."
(15:48:07) Rosalyn_J: Yes
(15:48:25) Rosalyn_J: Its a lot of work
(15:48:50) Rosalyn_J: A lot of "truths" depend on perspective
(15:49:10) Twigga: Yeah... Obi Wan said something clever...
(15:49:38) Rosalyn_J: So its about widening perspective to take in a larger and larger picture
(15:49:44) Twigga: When he was BS-ing about murdering Luke's dad...
(15:50:17) Twigga: I think that widening is what makes "We are authentic to what we believe" a sticking point for me
(15:50:18) Rosalyn_J: Right
(15:51:18) Twigga: How can you be authentic to what you don't know.
(15:51:22) Rosalyn_J: A lot of misplaced authenticity gets people hurt
(15:51:39) Rosalyn_J: I'm just being honest and such
(15:51:47) Twigga: And when you widen it out; we're not independent beings - we're co-dependent.
(15:52:04) Rosalyn_J: You can authentically say I don't know
(15:52:06) Twigga: Can you explain further Ros?
(15:52:42) Rosalyn_J: Ill take you back to should/ought
(15:52:47) Twigga: Yeah - I am a dunno fan. But it's tricky when you think you might know and want to test the waters; see HOW MUCH you know.
(15:53:02) Rosalyn_J: Keeping up the image of "whatever"
(15:53:38) Rosalyn_J: "I don't know all the facts, but..."
(15:54:16) Twigga: That goes fine in online web chats.... But you can't do that where rubber hits road, and the words are not the thing, rather the actions.
(15:54:39) Rosalyn_J: I've found myself clinging to the image of "wise", "smart", "leader"
(15:55:15) Rosalyn_J: Ah, have the courage to make a mistake
(15:55:47) Twigga: When you're working with your friends or family, it's not just you who gets damaged by mistakes.
(15:56:16) Twigga: There can be so much anger at the betrayal of the trust others have placed in you, that you actually knew what you were doing all these years....
(15:56:22) Rosalyn_J: True
(15:56:38) thomaswfaulkner: Ah, duty calls my friends. I've got to run to answer a call. I don't think I'll be back in time before the creed. Until later!
(15:56:38) Rosalyn_J: I know
(15:56:49) Twigga: Later Thomas!
(15:57:09) Rosalyn_J: Its hard. No BS
(15:57:18) Rosalyn_J: By Thomas
(15:57:23) Twigga: Yep.
(15:57:42) Rosalyn_J: Remember teaching 3?
(15:57:52) Twigga: Nope
(15:58:05) Rosalyn_J: We can't change the past or predict the future
(15:58:20) Twigga: The "now" one...
(15:58:44) Rosalyn_J: We can learn from the past, set goals for the future , but we have to live in the present
(15:58:52) Twigga: Gah... it's still a little too self-centred for me; going at it that way.
(15:59:46) Rosalyn_J: And...though I know its hard,we can learn not to take ourselves too seriously
(15:59:54) Temple remote: thomaswfaulkner has been logged out (Timeout).
(16:00:28) Twigga: Maybe that's true.
(16:01:10) Rosalyn_J: The burden of shame is just too heavy to move with
(16:01:48) Rosalyn_J: Guilt can motivate a change in action
(16:01:49) Twigga: Oh, I'm not worried about shame here
(16:02:06) Rosalyn_J: But shame makes the self decay
(16:02:24) Rosalyn_J: Ah
(16:02:39) Twigga: yeah - so out with it it's a bit of a useless feeling
(16:03:21) Twigga: It's hard to know, in the midst of a conflict, if you are are one to compromise on a call to action steming from living our your authentic self, or the other people with whom you are co-dependant.
(16:03:23) Rosalyn_J: Not so easy
(16:03:56) Rosalyn_J: Let the action arise
(16:04:01) Twigga: I think it's called "marriage" or "parenthood" (particularly of teens), or "mentorship".
(16:05:27) Twigga: They can have massive impacts though - balancing your son's desire to become a world-class ballet dancer against your younger daughters trip to the zoo to pet the goats...
(16:05:53) Twigga: Both are all consuming calls to action, stemming from the uniqueness of the individuals.
(16:06:06) Rosalyn_J: Right
(16:06:11) Twigga: To be frank, I've no clue how any parent could do it!
(16:06:13) Twigga:
(16:06:23) Rosalyn_J: Suggestion is the same
(16:06:41) Rosalyn_J: Action arise
(16:07:01) Rosalyn_J: Fun note, that's why I don't have kids
(16:07:09) Twigga: I'm only one parent - I can't be in two places at once. there's only one budget, and it can only be spread so thin
(16:07:15) Rosalyn_J: Sign son up for carpool
(16:07:40) Rosalyn_J: Wait for discount
(16:08:08) Rosalyn_J: Why am I coming up with solutions
(16:09:10) Twigga: I dunno Ros But I do think that sometimes it's not possibly, and "integrity" just doesn't work out. You, or your best beloveds, need to compromise on their integrity; and you all need to be able to both forgive and apologise....
(16:09:24) Twigga: *it's not possible
(16:10:54) Twigga: mutual support and empathy in that can be hard to nurture.
(16:11:13) Twigga: But it takes integrity to do so, I suppose.
(16:11:21) Rosalyn_J: What do we mean when we say "integrity"?
(16:11:42) Rosalyn_J: Because that's where your bumpers are
(16:12:03) Rosalyn_J: What does it look like, feel like
(16:14:13) Twigga: I think it's the heart of the self. It feels like true love, for which you'd sacrifice everything. You'd give everything for your son to go to dance college to fulfill his calling; but you'd ALSO give everything to nurture your budding vet wanting to go to the zoo. It's heart rendering, I think, the kinds of decisions at that level. Or it can be without those buckets and buckets of Love, support, and understanding.
(16:14:53) Rosalyn_J: You'll have to discover, continually, your areas of no comprise/compromise
(16:15:06) Twigga: Those are the tools - the buckets - which can make it possible to hold all that in it's tension.
(16:15:32) Twigga: Maybe. Or just learn how to breath underwater.
(16:15:54) Twigga:
(16:16:01) Rosalyn_J: Is this a hypothetical?
(16:16:07) Twigga: Yeah
(16:16:53) Twigga: I don't have any kids. But there are parallels. As usual I talk about things from the side view.
(16:16:58) Rosalyn_J: Ok
(16:17:12) Rosalyn_J: Both can be done
(16:17:28) Rosalyn_J: But 100% can't be given to both
(16:17:42) Rosalyn_J: Not can it be even
(16:18:59) Twigga: You have to. You have to give 100% for 50% to be felt. And get as much self-care in as you can. I think....
(16:19:40) Rosalyn_J: There is a should/ought
(16:19:46) Twigga:
(16:19:51) Twigga: You got me.
(16:20:09) Rosalyn_J: You do that, your candle burner quickly
(16:20:22) Rosalyn_J: Child rearing is a marathon
(16:20:28) Twigga:
(16:20:40) Rosalyn_J: Low and slow
(16:20:47) Twigga: I got some new fuel here.
(16:21:06) Twigga: But some new ideas... always welcome!
(16:21:33) Twigga:
(16:22:04) Twigga: Want to creed it up?
(16:22:16) Rosalyn_J: Right action also includes right time
(16:22:30) Twigga: ... yeah.
(16:22:37) Rosalyn_J: We might have to do it in spirit today
(16:22:38) Twigga: VERY good point
(16:22:44) Twigga: *nods*
(16:22:49) Rosalyn_J: Mobile and all that
(16:22:51) Twigga: Hope you have a good day then!
(16:22:53) Twigga:
(16:22:58) Twigga: I get you!
(16:23:31) Twigga: until tomorrow!

(15:04:18) Twigga: 10. Jedi serve in many ways. Each action performed, no matter the scale, influences the world. With this in mind Jedi perform each action with peace, caring, love, compassion and humility. So it is that each Jedi improves the world with each deed they perform.
(15:05:04) Twigga: Picked this up on my way over to chat this time
(15:05:12) Rosalyn_J: Thoughts?
(15:05:24) Rosalyn_J: Ah solid
(15:06:02) Twigga: I like the combo of the last two lines.
(15:06:35) Rosalyn_J: Oh?
(15:06:49) Twigga: peace, caring, love, compassion and humility -> improving the world with each deed performed.
(15:07:06) Rosalyn_J: Right
(15:07:55) thomaswfaulkner: I spent the majority of the Art of Thomas (I dislike that name) talking about this teaching because I feel that is our root of doing. We aren't as much our thoughts, rather the things we do, so to be the most authentic, we are the projection of our actions.
(15:08:37) thomaswfaulkner: Pushing cars in the 103F temperature yesterday and getting my work outfit all sweaty is worth the ten or so minutes it took to help a stranger.
(15:09:05) thomaswfaulkner: And so is feeding time with the turtles.
(15:09:08) thomaswfaulkner: And a smile
(15:09:11) thomaswfaulkner: or a hug
(15:09:21) thomaswfaulkner: Any and everything we do makes a difference
(15:09:22) Twigga: That example, Thomas, I think speaks to the first two lines!
(15:09:29) Twigga: That's really nice!
(15:09:55) Rosalyn_J: It needn't be big
(15:10:11) Rosalyn_J: Sorry exiting bus
(15:11:59) Twigga: I've been doing Metta meditation a heap more recently. I didn't think it was possible to cultivate and emotion, I'm still not dead sure of it... I thought we were just stuck with having to use soul-less rules to inspire us to action. But I think I can actually "change my mind" about people - the thinks we think. Then the "doings" become intuitive more - the first two lines become easier... But Metta is really hard work some days
(15:13:10) Twigga: So, I kinda think we ARE in the things we do a bit made out of our thoughts...
(15:13:32) Twigga: ... when the thoughts are in line with what we WANT them to be, all is very very good.
(15:14:12) Twigga: ... it's also bringing up a lot of nonsense I didn't want to tackle, but *shrugs* no one has ever ever told me Jediism would be easy!
(15:14:40) thomaswfaulkner: I like the way you put that.
(15:14:53) thomaswfaulkner: Where does your metta meditation start?
(15:15:16) Twigga: ... as in do I start with caring for me?
(15:15:58) thomaswfaulkner: Better, how do you make it blossom?
(15:16:01) Twigga: or do I start with finding a comfey spot on the sofa?!
(15:16:24) thomaswfaulkner: But yes to the relationship wise questions
(15:16:27) Twigga: Ah! Usually with my sister
(15:17:05) thomaswfaulkner: Beautiful, now there is something else I can be grateful for today! Sisters are awesome!
(15:17:08) Rosalyn_J: Metra meditation?
(15:17:21) Twigga: That's where I find plenty of buckets to go about. More than I could ever possibly need.
(15:17:27) Rosalyn_J: In not familiar
(15:17:36) thomaswfaulkner: I think compassion is the best translation
(15:17:39) Twigga: Metta - Atticus did a sermon on it; maybe 3/4 months ago
(15:17:41) Rosalyn_J: Ugh typos
(15:18:00) Rosalyn_J: Ill have a look
(15:18:18) Twigga: https://www.templeofthejediorder​.org/sermons/2406-that-s-so-metta
(15:18:46) Twigga: Compassion, yeah, but I know of no other practices for developing compassion.
(15:19:09) Twigga: I ... honestly didn't believe any of that kinda thing was real. I still am a bit in denial.
(15:20:00) thomaswfaulkner: Oh man when I started my IP journal around two-ish years ago, I was in denial too!
(15:20:10) Twigga: yeah?
(15:20:39) thomaswfaulkner: I'm reading up on a guy that has developed a compassion-based form of therapy that I would like to implement into my interventions somehow.
(15:20:46) thomaswfaulkner: But yeah, I was a total skeptic
(15:20:51) Twigga: :favorite:
(15:21:00) Twigga: There's hope for me yet then
(15:21:04) thomaswfaulkner: Metta and Tonglen are my friends.
(15:21:19) Rosalyn_J: *remembers my IP
(15:21:19) Twigga: Tonglen, I do not know.
(15:21:47) thomaswfaulkner: It's such a funny word to me. :D
(15:22:11) thomaswfaulkner: It's just like the breath (inhale-broken, exhale-whole)
(15:22:15) Twigga: I'm imagining a little niffler type creature...
(15:22:59) thomaswfaulkner: Now, I'm curious of the niffler
(15:23:02) Twigga: *nods* sounds like something to explore when I get bored of my current set-up!
(15:23:32) Twigga: tonglen - a creature a bit like a small furry black pangolin.
(15:23:41) Twigga: Dunno why....
(15:23:51) Twigga: the things we day-dream!
(15:23:53) Rosalyn_J: Lol a Pokemon
(15:24:02) Twigga: Yepa! Sounds about right!
(15:24:34) Rosalyn_J: Any more thoughts?
(15:24:38) Twigga: How were you Rosalyn? When it comes to the whole practice -> change thing when you were back at IP land?
(15:25:34) Rosalyn_J: Until this purposeful meditation I had tried to live the doctrine
(15:25:50) Rosalyn_J: It was difficult to remember
(15:26:03) Rosalyn_J: Especially when I needed it
(15:26:28) Twigga: Ha ah - yeah, soo true. That's the problem with rule books!
(15:26:35) Rosalyn_J: If I didn't develop a practice to bring it to mind
(15:27:18) Rosalyn_J: I had a Totjo pendant with a dip sort of like a worry stone
(15:27:37) Rosalyn_J: Used to recite the creed, a lot
(15:27:52) Rosalyn_J: I still have a fondness for it
(15:28:17) Twigga: I suppose my only other thought would be that we can get really caught up in our job titles being our definition of service, rather than the "every single little act" being service. Jobs are more a socially acceptable access gate to places we can be of service, than being the actual/only place for service to occur. We serve as much employed, unemployed or on holiday, or in retirement... it never ends.
(15:28:34) Rosalyn_J: That's how I know where to point the arrow
(15:28:51) Twigga: the doctrie?
(15:29:02) Twigga: *doctrine, or creed specifically
(15:29:09) Rosalyn_J: The creed
(15:29:20) Twigga: *nods*
(15:29:29) Twigga: I like it very much too....
(15:29:37) Rosalyn_J: As it where, job and not job do a dance
(15:29:50) Rosalyn_J: I find
(15:30:27) Rosalyn_J: What "every little act" can you do at work
(15:30:50) Rosalyn_J: We don't have to have a big title
(15:31:19) Twigga: Very true.
(15:31:27) Rosalyn_J: If we do, it helps as a catalyst, for a while
(15:32:02) Rosalyn_J: If actions haven't "arisen", burn out is the consequence
(15:32:18) Twigga: Can you explain that?
(15:32:21) Rosalyn_J: Burn out may still be
(15:33:25) Rosalyn_J: So if I do my job out of obligation. The need for a paycheck. Or the need to act like a Jedi, these aren't bad motivations per se, but their candle burns out quick
(15:34:00) Rosalyn_J: A while ago I talked about the "gritty why"
(15:34:03) Twigga: *nods* very very very very very very true (I wonder how many times more I'll need to learn that lesson)
(15:34:18) Rosalyn_J: That's what I mean
(15:34:30) Twigga: I gotcha
(15:34:44) Twigga: Burnout 'aint bad. It can be a great place for learning.
(15:34:45) Rosalyn_J: I learn it every day
(15:35:03) Twigga: But it is't optimal!
(15:35:21) Rosalyn_J: The thing about training is it's like a Kata
(15:35:34) Rosalyn_J: Daily practice you progress
(15:35:42) Rosalyn_J: It's not so obvious
(15:35:50) Rosalyn_J: But boy do you know when you don't practice
(15:35:54) Twigga: Kata is the karate set pattern thing
(15:36:03) Twigga: (just checking)
(15:36:15) Rosalyn_J: Yes
(15:36:24) Twigga: Nice.
(15:36:39) Rosalyn_J: As it were, the fall down hill is easier than the climb up
(15:36:54) Twigga:
(15:38:51) Twigga: So going to Karate is an act of service.
(15:39:21) Twigga: Just as much as sweeping the kitchen floor.
(15:39:22) Rosalyn_J: Self-service
(15:39:43) Rosalyn_J: I need a functioning body
(15:39:58) Rosalyn_J: For my life so I can live
(15:40:07) Twigga: You are a part of the whole too.
(15:40:27) Twigga: It's service to me, 'cause I need to you still be our pastor.
(15:40:29) Rosalyn_J: Too true
(15:40:55) Rosalyn_J: Hmm
(15:40:55) Twigga: 'can't do that if you're not in a functioning body... even if being a force ghost might be cool.
(15:41:06) Rosalyn_J: I'm not irreplaceable
(15:41:55) Twigga: I don't have an answer to that. I still think it'd somehow be wrong for you not to look after you.
(15:42:14) Twigga: Just a hunch.
(15:43:04) Rosalyn_J: Me too
(15:43:10) Twigga:
(15:43:24) Rosalyn_J: Which is why I do it
(15:44:12) thomaswfaulkner: Dabble a little bit of Rosalyn essence in everything you do.
(15:44:25) Twigga: Ooooh! I love that idea!
(15:44:52) Twigga: which is why you DO need to like yourself
(15:45:12) Twigga: I'm gunna think about that more.
(15:45:42) thomaswfaulkner: Then my evil plan is working!
(15:45:58) Twigga:
(15:46:10) Temple remote: Joe logs into the Chat.
(15:46:11) Rosalyn_J: Wait, what's happening with my essence
(15:46:19) Joe: Whoa.
(15:46:24) Joe: hey there, everyone
(15:46:30) Twigga: It's being dabbled into everything you do!
(15:46:32) Rosalyn_J: Lol
(15:46:34) thomaswfaulkner: Morning, Joe!
(15:46:48) Twigga: Hi Joe. Welcome to the weekday meditation!
(15:46:49) Rosalyn_J: Oh ok great sounds wonderful
(15:46:57) Joe: it's technically afternoon, but yeah. since i just got up- good morning
(15:47:16) thomaswfaulkner: Yeah, so it's not that we aren't irreplaceable, but that noone can do it with the same flavour as us!
(15:47:32) Rosalyn_J: Ha Joe you came in at an awkward moment lol
(15:47:45) Joe: Did I? how so?
(15:47:50) Twigga: Only 'cause we're talking about you Ros
(15:48:02) Twigga: Though it's a truth for everyone.
(15:48:05) Joe: *looks up.* oh. that's why
(15:48:08) Rosalyn_J: And my essence
(15:49:24) Joe: I crushed a spider with my pillow in my sleep tonight.
(15:49:53) Rosalyn_J: Aww
(15:50:04) Rosalyn_J: Humans eat 8 a year
(15:50:17) Joe: then i woke up, vision still blurry, unsure if it was just a bunch of hair that was on my bedsheet.
(15:50:41) Twigga: Blerk.
(15:50:50) Joe: That's a myth, i think. Why would a spider climb into your mouth? we're their enemies. They know how we look. And they're not that stupid.
(15:51:26) Twigga: Shall we creed it up? Or do we have anything more to say on teaching 10...
(15:51:41) Twigga: 10. Jedi serve in many ways. Each action performed, no matter the scale, influences the world. With this in mind Jedi perform each action with peace, caring, love, compassion and humility. So it is that each Jedi improves the world with each deed they perform.
(15:51:46) Twigga: Any thoughts Joe?
(15:51:54) Joe: but yeah, then i relized it was a spider, wanted to pick it up with a napkin, and it just disintegrated into 8 tiny hairy legs and a vicious looking and smelling paste.
(15:52:06) Rosalyn_J: I'm spirit breeding
(15:52:17) Twigga: ugh! poor thing
(15:52:26) Rosalyn_J: Creeding*
(15:52:35) Rosalyn_J: Awww
(15:53:27) Joe: any thoughts? Well, idk if i'm qualified to add anything to that. It's a nice goal to strive towards.
(15:53:40) Twigga:
(15:54:00) Joe: But: Not all deeds done through love are improving the world.
(15:54:28) Rosalyn_J: Oh Do elaborate
(15:54:43) Joe: You also have helicopter parents acting out of love. You have stalkers acting out of love.
(15:55:49) Joe: To truly have the impact on the world we desire, love as driving force can be good, but essential is our knowledge of the world we act upon, so we can make accurate predictions.
(15:56:46) Rosalyn_J: That is wonderful
(15:56:53) Twigga: I agree that there needs to be a lot of opening of the mind, and deep listening to conflicting opinions to gain real positive transformation. It can be "loving" to step back from our own "love" framework, and try on someone else's for a while.
(15:56:54) Joe: thank you.
(15:57:55) Twigga: Thomas, can you lead creed, or are you busy?
(15:58:18) thomaswfaulkner: I surely can. Are we ready?
(15:58:22) Twigga: I am
(15:58:33) thomaswfaulkner: _
(15:58:38) Joe: hmmm. I think since we are bound to our mortal forms here, and we're forced to see things from our own perspective, we can only reach objectivity by combining all the subjective perspectives through sharing.
(15:58:52) Joe is drifting off though.
(15:59:09) thomaswfaulkner: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(15:59:23) Twigga: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(15:59:59) Joe: I am a jedi, an instrument of peace.
(16:00:07) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is hatred, I shall bring love;
(16:00:15) Joe: where there is hatred, i shall bring love.
(16:00:16) Twigga: Where there is hatred, I shall bring love;
(16:00:24) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is injury, pardon;
(16:00:32) Twigga: Where there is injury, pardon;
(16:00:38) Joe: where there is injury, pardon
(16:00:43) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is doubt, faith;
(16:00:52) Joe: where there is doubt, faith
(16:00:54) Twigga: Where there is doubt, faith;
(16:01:00) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is despair, hope;
(16:01:14) Twigga: Where there is despair, hope;
(16:01:18) Joe: where there is despair, hope.
(16:01:26) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is darkness, light;
(16:01:32) Twigga: Where there is darkness, light;
(16:01:38) Joe: where there is darkness, light.
(16:01:45) thomaswfaulkner: And where there is sadness, joy.
(16:01:54) Joe: And where there is sadness, joy
(16:01:55) Twigga: And where there is sadness, joy/
(16:02:04) thomaswfaulkner: I am a Jedi.
(16:02:09) Twigga: I am a Jedi.
(16:02:11) Joe: I am a jedi.
(16:02:25) thomaswfaulkner: I shall never seek so much to be consoled, as to console;
(16:02:42) Joe: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console.
(16:02:45) Twigga: I shall never seek so much to be consoled, as to console;
(16:02:52) thomaswfaulkner: To be understood, as to understand;
(16:03:05) Joe: To be understood as to understand.
(16:03:05) Twigga: To be understood, as to understand;
(16:03:13) thomaswfaulkner: To be loved, as to love;
(16:03:22) Twigga: to be loved, as to love;
(16:03:24) Joe: to be loved, as to love
(16:03:34) thomaswfaulkner: For it is in giving that we receive;
(16:03:46) Joe: for it is in giving that we receive.
(16:03:49) Twigga: For it is in giving that we receive
(16:04:00) thomaswfaulkner: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(16:04:02) Joe: In pardoning that we are pardoned .
(16:04:09) Twigga: it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(16:04:21) thomaswfaulkner: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(16:04:33) Twigga: and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(16:04:37) Joe: and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(16:04:50) thomaswfaulkner: The Force is with me, always, for I am a Jedi.
(16:05:06) Joe: The force is with me always, for i am a jedi.
(16:05:10) Twigga: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.

(15:00:53) Twigga: Morning Ros
(15:01:01) Rosalyn_J: Morning
(15:01:12) Rosalyn_J: Hows you?
(15:01:53) Twigga: Pretty good - Thomas is in clinic today, but he dropped me a couple of creativity boosting ideas befor ehe went in!
(15:02:07) Twigga: The guy's a gem...
(15:02:27) Twigga: Your day looking good?
(15:03:00) Rosalyn_J: Yep
(15:03:11) Twigga: nice.
(15:03:14) Rosalyn_J: Ill need tight time today
(15:03:30) Twigga: ok! I'll grab the text!
(15:03:38) Rosalyn_J: I want to set up the justice course somewhat
(15:04:38) Twigga: Oooh - nice!
I already went through a bit of it - some of it's in my IP journal - but then I stopped posting there what with it being a study programme of it's own! I pity whoever has to read it
(15:05:09) Twigga: 11. Jedi are mindful of their thoughts. We recognise the beauty in others and we provide help to those who come seeking it. Through our benevolent actions we strengthen not only ourselves but also our communities. Jedi act without prejudice.
(15:06:00) Rosalyn_J: Well isn't this fitting?
(15:06:02) Twigga: Well, we were only mentioning Atticus' prejudice sermon last time with it's link to integrity!
(15:06:21) Rosalyn_J: What are your thoughts?
(15:06:36) Rosalyn_J: Ah
(15:07:40) Twigga: It is VERY hard for me to communicate something about myself and hold the first line true at the same time.
(15:08:26) Rosalyn_J: Living the doctrine may be a lift
(15:08:41) Rosalyn_J: Lifetime learning*
(15:09:03) Twigga: I think the second line really helps - even if I mess up the communicating the thing I found necessary, the second line can help heal the issue.
(15:09:25) Twigga: it's half gratitude, half service.
(15:10:58) Twigga: What about you Ros?
(15:11:00) Rosalyn_J: Right
(15:11:28) Rosalyn_J: I just work on the first line
(15:11:51) Rosalyn_J: The next lines are like dominoes
(15:12:45) Twigga: I look forward to a day when that's true for me. The third I find difficult since my community changes about every year and a hald - then you have to start witht he listening and learning stage all over again.
(15:13:01) Twigga: I'm just about getting "useful" here in Gent!
(15:13:32) Twigga: But all the travel has helped so much with the last line.
(15:13:39) Rosalyn_J: I don't get it perfect even 10% of the time
(15:14:11) Twigga: Ha ha, no, I don't think that's what Doctrine's there for though!
(15:14:23) Rosalyn_J: The doctrine hasn't become my modus operandi
(15:14:47) Rosalyn_J: It hasn't become unconscious
(15:15:07) Rosalyn_J: Which in and of itself is a good thing
(15:15:17) Twigga: How so?
(15:15:32) Rosalyn_J: Because it means I get to make a decision
(15:15:50) Rosalyn_J: A recommitment each time
(15:16:03) Twigga: ha ha ha yep! One way to see it!
(15:16:16) Twigga: And a good way to keep it fresh
(15:16:29) Twigga: ... Have you any mates who are teachers?
(15:17:19) Rosalyn_J: No unfortunately
(15:17:25) Rosalyn_J: You?
(15:17:31) Twigga: I have quite a few, and I find they are always, unconsciously, teaching, even though I'm not in their class.
(15:19:11) Twigga: I kinda hoping that doctrine practice becomes like that. I always practice it, but there are some times when I also become a conscious practiser (like if I was a teacher, and actually in a classroom)
(15:19:41) Rosalyn_J: Hmm
(15:20:00) Rosalyn_J: Being pastor is a bit like that
(15:20:29) Twigga: Nice.
(15:21:01) Twigga: Were you going for "half hour" tight on this meditation?
(15:21:17) Rosalyn_J: Yes
(15:21:27) Twigga: Wanna wrap up then?
(15:21:32) Rosalyn_J: Sad Thomas isn't about
(15:21:38) Rosalyn_J: Yep
(15:21:45) Twigga: As I said, clinic day...
(15:21:49) Rosalyn_J: And Nakis
(15:21:54) Rosalyn_J: And Joe
(15:22:03) Rosalyn_J: Anyhow
(15:22:03) Twigga: Usually arrive later
(15:22:42) Rosalyn_J: --
(15:22:51) Rosalyn_J: Aww
(15:23:00) Rosalyn_J: Mayn
(15:23:12) Twigga: ?
(15:23:20) Rosalyn_J: Maybe you guys can continue w/o me
(15:23:37) Twigga: ok - see you Ros!

(15:08:55) Rosalyn_J: Jedi believe that love and compassion are central to their lives. We must love and care for each other as we must love and care for ourselves; by doing this we envelop all life in the positivity of our actions and thoughts. We are providers and beacons of hope.
(15:08:55) Arisaig: Heya Twigga.
(15:08:56) Brick: yay!
(15:09:06) Rosalyn_J: Hey Twigga
(15:09:14) Twigga: *waves*
(15:09:19) Rosalyn_J: We've got a party now
(15:10:04) Rosalyn_J: What are everyone's thoughts on 11?
(15:10:25) Twigga: Well, this is a bit of doctrine that I think in some traditions is so stand alone, you need nothing more.
(15:10:43) Twigga: I LOVE the last line.
(15:10:54) Rosalyn_J: Right
(15:13:00) Rosalyn_J: Anyone else?
(15:13:07) Arisaig: I recently re-watched the movie 'the shack'. Love is a central theme to it. Mostly the love God gives to His children, so infinite and unwavering its borderline incomprehensible to us. The Jedi, I feel, can be like this (even if they do not believe in such a deity). We fall short of such a level of love and compassion, but we can try our darnedest.
(15:13:32) Arisaig: though that type of love, wounds heal, even wounds we didn't realise we still carried.
(15:13:53) Arisaig: love without thought of reward or return.
(15:14:40) Rosalyn_J: I wonder what we mean when we say the word love
(15:14:41) Twigga: I think Arisaig has described an image of that kind of tradition here.
(15:14:44) Brick: Innocent, pure love for each other, without condition or expectation of getting something in return is what holds us together. The only way we can move forward and upward is together and by caring for each other as we would for ourselves.
(15:15:08) Twigga: "As we would for ourselves"....
(15:15:10) Brick: Sorry, I'm slow. Im still at work. Continue without me, and I'll jump in as best I can
(15:16:05) Twigga: Buddhist tradition hold that "as yourself" point very close too with Metta meditation.
(15:16:16) Arisaig: When we mean the word love, I think, can be described by a verse I know. Love Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonour others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
(15:16:55) Arisaig: this, I feel, is the purest form of love, but people are flawed, we are flawed, and we sometimes do not do love justice.
(15:16:56) Twigga: Yep... that'd be part of that tradition too...
(15:17:06) Arisaig: hehe
(15:17:13) Arisaig: im a traditional dude.
(15:17:52) Arisaig: but as much as that is all very 'Christian', it can apply to the Jedi's definition of love.
(15:18:47) Twigga: Justice, I think, I an essential foil to the types of misinterpretations that can come out of this teachings' tradition.
(15:19:10) Rosalyn_J: I was thinking of 1 cor 13 too
(15:19:18) Arisaig: indeed, but are the Jedi judges?
(15:19:55) Arisaig: And should a person's wrongs, their shortcomings, make them worthy of less than love?
(15:20:08) Twigga: I have no clue, but I do know we need to have and be our own judges; and that's just as essential as investing in the love principle.
(15:20:25) Rosalyn_J: Wonderful
(15:20:36) Twigga: Nah - you gotta love a sinner. If you're heading for that way of speaking.
(15:20:42) Rosalyn_J: Not judges
(15:20:59) Rosalyn_J: Partners in training
(15:21:14) Arisaig: its funny, the shack goes into that. If everyone is a judge, then there will be clashes of what is right or wrong, and that breeds conflict, conflict breeds anger, and anger breeds hate. And hate is unbecoming of a Jedi.
(15:21:23) Rosalyn_J: People who say you have spinach in your teeth
(15:21:44) Arisaig: indeed, a loving hand to guide you back onto the Path, rather than a judge to point out wrongs.
(15:21:54) Rosalyn_J: Don't judge you for eating
(15:22:09) Twigga: It's... complicated.
(15:22:22) Rosalyn_J: It is
(15:22:39) Rosalyn_J: Only because we make it so
(15:22:39) Twigga: Love isn't always the answer.
(15:22:39) Arisaig: indeed it is.
(15:22:48) Twigga: It's just one of a suite of answers.
(15:23:04) Arisaig: when, would you argue, that love isn't the answer?
(15:23:17) Rosalyn_J: Love may be choked by rules on how to do it
(15:23:46) Arisaig: and should rules hinder our ability to love?
(15:24:24) Rosalyn_J: Sometimes they can
(15:24:26) Twigga: When you have to make decisions that vary in scale and scope, the definition of "love" will change.
(15:24:27) Rosalyn_J: Taj
(15:24:41) Rosalyn_J: Take 1 for 13
(15:24:45) Twigga: Loving action at one level would be to give the guy a shoulder to cry on.
(15:24:53) Rosalyn_J: 1 cor*
(15:25:47) Twigga: But it can perpetuate an issue that is not being faced.
(15:26:00) Rosalyn_J: If I made a list of rules based on that
(15:26:23) Twigga: I'll listen to what you gotta say - sorry
(15:26:33) Rosalyn_J: What kind of love will I "manufacture"
(15:27:04) Rosalyn_J: But if I just take it as is
(15:27:49) Rosalyn_J: And let actions arise based on how the teaching feel in the moment
(15:28:08) Rosalyn_J: *shrug*
(15:28:38) Rosalyn_J: Its hard to define love
(15:29:02) Arisaig: indeed, instinct tempered by rationality often makes for the best decisions on how to solve an issue or deal with a person, but one could make the case that it shouldn't affect your love for said person.
(15:29:15) Rosalyn_J: So making rules/laws, though not always wrong can sometimes stifle
(15:29:34) Arisaig: it is easy to love a person that loves you in return. it is harder to love those that hate you. And it is harder still to love those everyone hates for their actions.
(15:29:50) Arisaig: But to be a Jedi is to not walk an easy path.
(15:30:10) Arisaig: to give without thought of receiving and all that.
(15:30:16) Twigga: ... I wish I could actually explain.
(15:30:36) Rosalyn_J: I wanna hear
(15:30:43) Arisaig: I understand your side, Twigga, I do.
(15:30:52) Twigga: I understand all that stuff. I don't disagree with it. But it's not enough as a stand alone.
(15:32:08) Twigga: It really isn't. Our own definitions of Love and loving actions towards others are going to be interpreted in the worst ways - We can be as "well meaning" as anything; but still stabbing someone in the side.
(15:32:49) Rosalyn_J: (Nod)
(15:33:59) Twigga: And that's why all the rest is so important. It stops us getting caught up in a righteous zeal for "Love". That love in quotes IS Love, but it also, really isn't.
(15:35:06) Arisaig: if one is getting caught up in such a righteous zeal, they're falling short of the type of unconditional love a Jedi finds central in their life.
(15:35:13) Twigga: To "Love" well, is also to judge well. It's to perceive well, to listen well, to act well, to refrain from acting well, to be humble.... heck, even to be angry well.
(15:36:08) Arisaig: well, yes, one can be angry at someone they love. but more anger does not mean less love, or that one cannot be angry at those they love.
(15:36:15) Rosalyn_J: Right action then
(15:36:49) Twigga: And everything else in that 8 foldy wheel thing...
(15:37:11) Rosalyn_J: Teaching 4 then
(15:37:14) Arisaig: For the Jedi, being connected to the Force and through it all things, to love another person is to love oneself. I find, more often than not, the hate one directs outwards is a reflection of how they view themselves.
(15:37:50) Twigga: ^ True dat
(15:38:00) Rosalyn_J: That
(15:38:26) Arisaig: and love does not mean to create attachment with a person you hate, it is to love them despite their flaws, because they're as beautifully imperfect as you.
(15:38:52) Twigga: But you also need to be able to judge yourself well to be able to grow.
(15:39:32) Arisaig: indeed. I can agree on that
(15:40:18) Twigga: And that kind of skill can get so easily lost in a "love only" focus. We are only mortal humans...
(15:40:28) Arisaig: that type of judgement stems from love. A person that hates themselves, even if they don't know it, often don't judge themselves to find ways they can grow, they just hate themselves and pass hateful judgements.
(15:40:30) Twigga: The love tradition can be so blinding.
(15:41:20) Twigga: Oh I know it can stem from Love; but you can also see how love can stem from the application of... for want of a better word... "Right application of all the other things".
(15:42:18) Arisaig: perhaps a feeling one deserves better than their current lot in life?
(15:42:41) Twigga: Hmmm... I dunno about that.
(15:43:04) Twigga: What do you mean?
(15:44:19) Arisaig: Example, I've been going through a lot of weight loss in the past year. At first I hated the fact I was getting fat (always having been an underweight kid). But that hate only led to me not pushing myself. It was when I learned to love myself, and that I deserved better than what I had given myself that I started properly fixing myself.
(15:44:56) Arisaig: its not a matter of ego or being more deserving than another, but that feeling stemmed from me loving myself enough to change.
(15:45:22) Twigga: Maybe... What I'm trying to get at is "If love is everything, then everything is love" Therefore our inability as mere mortals to do love well can be mitigated on focusing on (all) the other things.
(15:46:46) Arisaig: i guess the classic Qui-Gon statement comes into play. "Your focus determines your reality." I focus on love. I love the world around me, the people within it, the animals, and myself, and want the best for all of it because of such love, along with my connection to it all through the Force.
(15:47:08) Twigga: It's hard to change our "love lense" for ourselves or of others... but it's not so hard to take a single thought and judge it to be worthy or unworthy - and that decision be free from the love "trap". as a response, the "love lense" changes and grows to incorporate a new, better understanding of Love.
(15:47:32) Twigga: Yes! And that's a good thing Ari!
(15:47:47) Twigga: BUT... I don't think it's the only thing.
(15:48:05) Twigga: Or that it is wise/prudent to let it be the only thing.
(15:48:07) Twigga: :favorite:
(15:48:46) Twigga: If the application of "all the other stuff" can come from a love source, that's really really cool.
(15:49:51) Twigga: ... but when the Love bit ... breaks... or is so misguided and out of place it needs some serious readjustment - "all the rest" can be a better/good place to start.
(15:50:04) Arisaig: perhaps. I just look around and see a world falling apart because people are forgetting to love. They let petty disagreement dismantle their relationships and history. Right now Ontario is tearing itself apart because last night a majority conservative party win. People that loved each other last night are at each others throats this morning, forgetting (even temporarily) their love for each other and how much bigger it is than the issue at hand.
(15:50:07) Twigga: It's why kids grow up best with rules maybe.
(15:50:53) Twigga: Right. And that is true Arisaig. But where do people learn Love?
(15:50:58) Arisaig: indeed, rules are important. My mother told me not to touch the stove when it was on not because she hated the stove, but because she loved me.
(15:51:08) Arisaig: do we need to learn it?
(15:51:15) Twigga: You Ma sounds top..
(15:51:34) Arisaig: I find people learn to unlearn it over time, children are often the most loving.
(15:51:47) Twigga: I think so. Loving is a skill as any other. A talent - a thing to be developed and nurtured as any other.
(15:51:48) Rosalyn_J: ^
(15:52:11) Twigga: Nah - kids can also be really bitey power hungry little blighters...
(15:52:24) Rosalyn_J: I think love is natural
(15:52:29) Twigga: But they are super trusting a lovely too...
(15:52:49) Twigga: It is. Just as natural as our skill to judge.
(15:52:57) Arisaig: perhaps we develop new understandings of love and what it can mean, but children do not hate for such petty things such as skin, race, or creed. Adults do that, because they are taught to.
(15:54:16) Twigga: True that many prejudices are learnt. But again, not all... Some are biological. And that takes effort application to overcome.
(15:54:29) Arisaig: and as we learn to un-love, we learn hate. our judgements of others grow more and more powerful to the point of even starting wars over matters that could have been solved if all sides instead chose to love their fellow man more than their love for their side of an issue.
(15:54:55) Arisaig: you have an example of a natural prejudice?
(15:55:13) Twigga: I'm not sure I can speak to the "next tier" of application with such confidence.
(15:55:53) Twigga: Leave a bunch of animals in a box, they will mate with ones for best survival outcome. They're prejudiced against the disabled.
(15:56:18) Arisaig: lol, good point.
(15:56:21) Twigga: k:D
(15:56:35) Twigga: But thankfully we're not animals in boxes.
(15:56:37) Twigga:
(15:56:49) Arisaig: lol, thank goodness.
(15:57:28) Rosalyn_J: Truth
(15:57:53) Rosalyn_J: Wow good convo
(15:58:11) Rosalyn_J: We'll probably have to cut it now
(15:58:37) Arisaig: aww hehe
(15:58:37) Rosalyn_J: And I'm on mobile, so I won't be able to lead creed
(15:59:02) Twigga: Arisag? Can you? Or Brick?
(15:59:31) Arisaig: I can.
(15:59:36) Arisaig: Lets begin.
(15:59:43) Twigga: *Force fist pump*
(15:59:48) Arisaig: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(16:00:00) Twigga: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(16:00:40) Arisaig: Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
(16:00:54) Twigga: Where there is hatred I shall bring Love;
(16:01:06) Arisaig: Where there is injury, pardon;
(16:01:19) Twigga: Where there is injury, pardon;
(16:01:25) Arisaig: Where there is doubt, faith;
(16:01:34) Twigga: Where there is doubt, faith;
(16:01:41) Arisaig: Where there is despair, hope;
(16:01:52) Twigga: Where there is despair, hope;
(16:01:56) Arisaig: Where there is darkness, light;
(16:02:04) Twigga: Where there is darkness, light;
(16:02:18) Arisaig: And where there is sadness, joy.
(16:02:27) Twigga: And where there is sadness, joy.
(16:02:31) Arisaig: I am a Jedi.
(16:02:37) Twigga: I am a Jedi.
(16:02:47) Arisaig: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(16:02:59) Twigga: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(16:03:12) Arisaig: To be understood as to understand;
(16:03:22) Twigga: To be understood as to understand;
(16:03:30) Arisaig: To be loved as to love;
(16:03:37) Twigga: to be loved as to love;
(16:03:45) Arisaig: For it is in giving that we receive;
(16:03:56) Twigga: For it is in giving that we recieve;
(16:04:05) Arisaig: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(16:04:17) Twigga: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(16:04:23) Arisaig: And it is in dying that we are born into eternal life.
(16:04:36) Twigga: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(16:04:49) Arisaig: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(16:05:01) Twigga: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(16:05:17) Arisaig: May the Force be with you all.
(16:05:23) Twigga: Thank you so much for leading Arisaig
(16:05:30) Twigga: And thank you for hosting Ros!
(16:05:41) Twigga: I shall post this convo.
(16:05:43) Arisaig: *yay for first time leading the Creed*
(16:05:54) Twigga: *waves flag*
(16:05:54) Arisaig: hehe, indeed. Thank you, Ros.

(15:00:16) Twigga: Hi
(15:06:21) Brick: urgh
(15:06:23) Brick: its you
(15:06:32) Twigga:
(15:06:48) Twigga: I've not seen ros about...
(15:06:57) Twigga: BUT doesn't mean we can't chat Doctrine!
(15:07:07) Twigga: I earmarked this hour for it...
(15:07:43) Temple remote: Rosalyn_J logs into the Chat.
(15:08:02) Rosalyn_J: Hiya
(15:08:03) Twigga: Hey Ros!
(15:08:36) Rosalyn_J: Are we on 11 or 12?
(15:08:49) Rosalyn_J: Sorry I'm late btw
(15:09:04) Twigga: thirteen I think
(15:09:04) Brick: I thought we were on 13 actually
(15:09:06) Brick: lol
(15:09:35) Rosalyn_J: Oh
(15:09:44) Twigga: we're going to JUST start on the bit's I've not covered in IP while I'm away
(15:09:48) Twigga: 13. Jedi cultivate empathy. We try to view things from another’s perspective making us sensitive listeners. We provide the confidence people need when talking through their difficulties and we share our learning with those who would benefit. We do this to help create a more harmonious society.
(15:09:55) Rosalyn_J: 1aasqq q
(15:10:06) Rosalyn_J: Oh
(15:10:34) Brick: Yeah, we deliberately planned it like that Twig
(15:10:45) Twigga: Nnnnarrgh!
(15:11:06) Twigga: I will finish it... One day.
(15:11:40) Rosalyn_J: I believe in you
(15:11:55) Twigga: Awww :favorite:
(15:12:31) Brick: SO 13 is about being good listeners, and providing a shoulder to cry on. AND spreading what we learn rather than spreading gossip about what someone has told us.
(15:12:52) Rosalyn_J: I feel this doctrine on today
(15:13:03) Brick: oh?
(15:13:19) Rosalyn_J: Yes
(15:13:50) Rosalyn_J: The difficulty arises when there is a decision
(15:14:12) Rosalyn_J: When both people/both sides need empathy
(15:14:33) Twigga: For me, Listening is one of those super Jedi skills... I learn a lot too when I listen... but I 'aint good at it - often with the people who matter. I think listeners need listeners; and I also think that there's a limit to how much effective listening I can do (particularly with some people) before I really shut my ears down.
(15:14:48) Rosalyn_J: Its why I value compromise
(15:15:23) Twigga: Everyone always needs a good listening to... virtually no-one benefits from a talking to!
(15:15:27) Rosalyn_J: And that is also me Twigga
(15:15:55) Rosalyn_J: That sounded like Alexandre
(15:16:01) Brick: lol
(15:16:04) Brick: it did!
(15:17:08) Rosalyn_J: I was talking with someone yesterday
(15:17:41) Rosalyn_J: Asked him how he could read anger and frustration in text
(15:17:56) Rosalyn_J: He said, word choice
(15:18:39) Twigga: Yeah; that's it Ros. I think on that same basis, I would treat the second sentence with caution, since we can easily "make up" what a situation is like for another person; and thus become less sensitive listeners.
(15:18:59) Twigga: Particularly with text only!
(15:19:38) Twigga: Viewing things from another person's perspective is more effective with time and a willingness to ask questions, so find out how/why a person thinks about a scenario in such a way.
(15:20:05) Brick: I think there is some truth to word choice. For example if I start swearing a lot, then I'm probably cross lol. But I'm not sure it's always accurate. Some people just swear a lot even when they're totally calm
(15:20:43) Twigga: I get sweary when I'm in pain - but I'm not angry... it's hard to convince people of that!
(15:22:08) Twigga: A small emotion on top of unhealed pain is like a match dropped in a dry forest - you might not care very much about the topic under discussion; but it really does look like it.
(15:23:40) Brick: Compromise is good, but can still require a great deal of empathy and listening. Not just to achieve, but also for both parties to feel like the compromise is equal. When one 'side' feels like they've compromised a lot, and also feel like the other 'side' has barely compromised at all, you get problems
(15:24:24) Twigga: (gas meter man visits)
(15:25:11) Twigga: I agree with Brick on "compromise" being super tricky, and infact quite dangerous/can lead to unjust decisions whtn insufficient listening is done first.
(15:25:28) Rosalyn_J: True
(15:27:59) Brick: A big part of my job is Alternative Dispute Resolution, and I often sit in on mediations between two groups that are in disagreement on something. It's amazing how blinded people become by their sense of "I'm right, they're wrong". To the point where they're completely unable to see the other's point of view
(15:28:13) Brick: They lack empathy
(15:29:07) Rosalyn_J: (Nod)
(15:29:13) Twigga: Finding creative solutions in those situations is the bees knees!
(15:29:25) Twigga: The cats pajamas
(15:29:45) Rosalyn_J: Omg
(15:30:09) Rosalyn_J: Cats pajamas
(15:30:55) Twigga: I'm not sure people lack empathy really - just ... perspective maybe? They're so caught up in their own fear of loosing a 25,000 budget, they can't see the impact on the other person with their 18 month delay to construction completion....
(15:31:20) Rosalyn_J: Perspective
(15:31:28) Twigga: Not everyone's "upsets" can be translated into the same currency.
(15:31:34) Brick: yes, perhaps
(15:31:42) Brick: true Twig
(15:31:50) Rosalyn_J: (Nod)
(15:32:12) Twigga: A Judge could ban you from driving for life, but the family whose daughter you killed just wants you to show you are sorry.
(15:32:48) Rosalyn_J: Wonder if that's justice
(15:33:00) Brick: I was just about to say that Rosa!
(15:33:10) Rosalyn_J: Or "good enough"
(15:33:42) Twigga: What about "We provide the confidence people need when talking through their difficulties and we share our learning with those who would benefit."
(15:34:56) Rosalyn_J: That's tricky
(15:35:14) Twigga: .... what does it mean?!
(15:35:27) Twigga: Here, have this courage bucket....
(15:35:28) Rosalyn_J: My threshold for provision of that is often stretched
(15:35:45) Temple remote: Lizzy logs into the Chat.
(15:35:49) Twigga: so you know what it is?
(15:36:07) Twigga: how do you "provide confidence" to someone?
(15:36:15) Twigga: *hi Lizzy*
(15:36:27) Brick: I think the first bit is about support as much as it is about anything else. Letting people know that you're there for them
(15:36:35) Rosalyn_J: It is what it is as you read it recite it remember it in the moment
(15:36:44) Lizzy: *hello don't mind me I'm probably going to have to go in a few minutes*
(15:37:03) Rosalyn_J: Its good to have you
(15:37:18) Lizzy: Good to be here
(15:37:23) Brick: Case in point: Hi Lizzy! Sorry I haven't gotten back to you about your Journal! I will give you some feedback very soon, I've just been a bit swamped!
(15:37:42) Twigga: ha ha! Awesome. ^
(15:38:03) Lizzy: Ah, it's okay. I've been really busy myself anyways, haven't had time to make much progress.
(15:38:09) Twigga: So letting people know you are there for them provides them courage.
(15:38:14) Twigga: *confidence
(15:38:20) Twigga: blagh....
(15:38:28) Brick: I think so Twig
(15:38:42) Rosalyn_J: Its not just saying the words
(15:39:06) Rosalyn_J: That's like "my thoughts and prayers etc"
(15:39:18) Brick: Knowing that I have people out there who've 'got my back', certainly gives me a boost when I'm a bit nervous about things
(15:39:21) Twigga: Oh I like those...
(15:39:31) Brick: Agreed Rosa, one has to SHOW support as well
(15:39:38) Brick: not just imply that it may be there
(15:40:04) Twigga: hmmm... Dunno how that works.
(15:40:09) Brick: 'Wallk the walk, not just talk the talk' as it were?
(15:40:19) Twigga: Tricky when people are an e-mail away.
(15:40:32) Rosalyn_J: True
(15:40:37) Brick: true
(15:41:06) Rosalyn_J: Being a keeper of your word is where it counts
(15:41:30) Brick: Yes Rosa
(15:41:39) Rosalyn_J: So I would say don't stretch too thin, promise to much
(15:41:51) Twigga: So if you say "I'll think of you" - you message to say "thinking of you" even though It's a not much.
(15:42:14) Lizzy: Know your own limitations?
(15:42:37) Brick: Certainly when it comes to promising things lizzy, yes
(15:42:49) Rosalyn_J: You already do what you do dann well Twigga
(15:43:55) Twigga: Meh - someone might have to tell me what it is I do then But that might spoil the surprise for when I work it out for myself. And I think that's the trap in "share[ing] our learning with those who would benefit".
(15:44:54) Twigga: It's so cool to just watch kids work stuff out for themselves. Fight, argue, frustrate themselves over solving a task; while you sit back and watch them fail.... *scout leaders can be cruel*
(15:44:57) Brick: Yeah, I think a little message here and there is good Twig. I think taking the time to skype someone can be pretty powerful too. It means you've set a side a bit of time thats exclusively for them. Rather that a text, which can done whilst you're doing anything really
(15:45:36) Brick: Or you know, coming all the way from the continent to visit to your Northern Mate. Eh Twig
(15:45:49) Twigga: True that Brick. Possibly why I'm a bit sad to be away so long in the coming up 2 months.
(15:46:00) Rosalyn_J: You see?
(15:46:04) Twigga: Ah, nah - I'm Northern too.
(15:46:10) Brick: lol
(15:46:31) Twigga: You're a bike ride away. I was lazy and took the train.
(15:46:55) Brick: Doesn't matter! It meant a lot to me
(15:47:06) Twigga: Awww.... You're very sweet.
(15:47:18) Twigga: You and me, and our 0% Jedi rating.
(15:47:28) Rosalyn_J: I just have to cross a small puddle. Pacific or whatever
(15:48:16) Twigga: I wish I could do the States... I'm hoping to meet some at the Peace park on the border of Canada and America beginning of next week.
(15:48:31) Twigga: Canada are less "Middle East travel" phobic...
(15:48:33) Rosalyn_J: You guys are not 0% Jedi
(15:48:46) Twigga: We are when we play LEGO Star Wars!
(15:48:48) Twigga:
(15:50:27) Brick:
(15:51:28) Twigga: But I'm not sure about the whole "sharing the teaching" thing....
(15:51:44) Twigga: Is it not better to just "share bits of us".
(15:51:58) Brick: The second part, I think is about being able to give advise when people ask for it
(15:52:10) Twigga: Outline the story - how you got into a pickle, how you got out of a pickle, and that's that.
(15:52:15) Twigga: Ah... yeah...
(15:52:21) Twigga: When people ask....
(15:52:40) Brick: I think it's difficult to share certain teachings as there are some things people have to learn for themselves
(15:52:46) Twigga: Is it right to give people what they ask for?
(15:52:53) Twigga: Yes! That!
(15:53:07) Brick: I think that depends on the context Twig
(15:53:47) Twigga: If a situation is so complex, you've not seen the full context, it's probably best not to start sharing advice...
(15:54:19) Twigga: But I know I do it anyway, because it feels like I'm solving the problem. instead I just frustrate the person I'm talking to...
(15:54:37) Twigga: "but you don't understand".
(15:55:04) Lizzy: Thanks for letting me listen to the chat for a bit, I am glad I stayed for what I did. I've gotta go now, bye.
(15:55:04) Twigga: "You're not listening".
(15:55:05) Temple remote: Lizzy logs out of the Chat.
(15:55:12) Twigga: Bye Lizzy!
(15:55:30) Brick: a lot of the time that sentence should be 'but we dont understand'
(15:55:44) Brick: its pretty rare that anyone has the whole story
(15:56:04) Twigga: Can you expand any more?
(15:56:49) Brick: No. As I'm not sure I should give you what you ask for
(15:56:50) Brick: yes
(15:57:01) Twigga:
(16:00:09) Brick: people often definitive answers/solutions which relate to their own experiences. But those solutions don't necessarily work perfectly for the person asking for solutions. Then the asker gets pissed because the solution giver 'doesn't understand', but the solution giver also gets pissed because the asker 'doesn't understand' how the solution can adapted to suit their particular problem. Because neither party can see it from the others' perspective
(16:00:12) Brick: if that makes sense
(16:00:15) Brick: maybe not
(16:00:16) Brick: lol
(16:00:55) Rosalyn_J: I think "you're not listening" is a good way for people to stop you making a decision
(16:00:59) Twigga: Yes, It does.
(16:01:25) Twigga: Really Ros? You think it's a kids' distraction technique?
(16:01:33) Rosalyn_J: In some cases this is true
(16:01:56) Rosalyn_J: I may not be listening
(16:02:20) Rosalyn_J: Most times I am
(16:02:52) Twigga: How do you know?
(16:03:04) Rosalyn_J: Analysis paralysis is a real thing I've seen play out so much in the Temple
(16:03:17) Twigga: Yep! That happens!
(16:03:35) Rosalyn_J: Because I have talk
(16:03:36) Twigga: You need a deadline for information gathering and sharing.
(16:04:10) Rosalyn_J: Taken the time throughout the convo to restate, paraphrase what have you
(16:04:23) Twigga: *nods* that can really help, yes.
(16:05:04) Rosalyn_J: I've seen not listening happen
(16:05:19) Rosalyn_J: I've done nonlistening
(16:05:26) Rosalyn_J: Here and offline
(16:05:38) Rosalyn_J: O
(16:06:27) Rosalyn_J: It generally comes out as" this convo is getting out of hand" ( has only read 2 posts)
(16:07:24) Twigga: I find nonlistening much easier to spot in myself than when I'm "listening" well. It's like "not knowing what that would look like, so can't tell the person who says "you're not listening" that they're trying to pull a fast one.
(16:08:19) Twigga: But it's a good skill in a leader I think to know both sides - it's how we can put confidence in you Ros
(16:08:30) Rosalyn_J: You can say "what do you think I missed?'
(16:08:42) Twigga: Ha! Clever.
(16:09:03) Twigga: You'd be there forever though with an agile mind...
(16:09:45) Rosalyn_J: And see, there is where we need to be careful
(16:10:38) Rosalyn_J: I've had situations where people keep saying I'm not listening and their goal is to get me to acquiesce
(16:10:51) Rosalyn_J: To wear me down
(16:11:37) Rosalyn_J: Not to compromise
(16:11:37) Twigga: That must have been really frustrating. How do you manage?
(16:12:10) Rosalyn_J: After a while, I ignore them
(16:12:20) Rosalyn_J: Easier to do online
(16:12:41) Rosalyn_J: I remember that no is a complete sentence
(16:13:36) Twigga: Heh.
(16:13:59) Twigga: Lots of food for thought.
(16:15:07) Brick: 'F*** off' works pretty well in person
(16:15:10) Brick: I find
(16:15:15) Brick:
(16:15:22) Twigga: HAH!
(16:15:47) Twigga: People tend to respond in kind though... people learn from us how to speak to us...
(16:16:12) Twigga: I don't really want people telling me to F-off except in the most friendly ways.
(16:17:22) Brick: fairplay lol
(16:18:14) Twigga: I should probably F-Off back to my Dutch study books Much verb table to cram into my brain for this week...
(16:18:40) Brick:
(16:18:47) Twigga: Sorry...
(16:18:50) Rosalyn_J: True
(16:19:28) Twigga: Can we creed it up?
(16:19:41) Brick: sure
(16:20:13) Rosalyn_J: --
(16:20:29) Rosalyn_J: Mobile, yay
(16:20:58) Twigga: ... Brick?
(16:21:12) Brick: ok
(16:21:25) Brick: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace
(16:21:37) Twigga: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace
(16:22:24) Brick: Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
(16:22:35) Twigga: where there is hatred I shall bring Love;
(16:22:40) Brick: Where there is injury, pardon;
(16:22:49) Twigga: Where there is injury, pardon;
(16:22:56) Brick: Where there is doubt, faith;
(16:23:07) Twigga: Where there is doubt, faith;
(16:23:13) Brick: Where there is despair, hope;
(16:23:27) Twigga: Where there is despair, hope;
(16:23:34) Brick: Where there is darkness, light;
(16:23:43) Twigga: Where there is darkness, light;
(16:23:51) Brick: And where there is sadness, joy.
(16:24:03) Twigga: and where there is sadness, joy.
(16:24:09) Brick: I am a Jedi.
(16:24:13) Twigga: I am a Jedi.
(16:24:22) Brick: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(16:24:35) Twigga: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(16:24:40) Brick: To be understood as to understand;
(16:24:50) Twigga: To be understood as to understand;
(16:24:54) Brick: To be loved as to love;
(16:25:00) Twigga: To be loved as to Love;
(16:25:05) Brick: For it is in giving that we receive;
(16:25:16) Twigga: For it is in giving that we recieve;
(16:25:23) Brick: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(16:25:33) Twigga: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(16:25:38) Brick: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(16:25:51) Twigga: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(16:25:56) Brick: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(16:26:06) Twigga: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(16:26:25) Twigga: Nice one. Thanks Brick.
(16:26:35) Twigga: I'll get this posted.
(16:26:37) Brick: *bows*

(15:19:28) Twigga: Hello Thomas!
(15:19:30) thomaswfaulkner: I'm here and late at the same time!
(15:19:32) Twigga: How are things?
(15:19:56) Twigga: I hope that's not "late" as in past-tense "force ghost"
(15:20:31) thomaswfaulkner: It's a busy day already, I'm hoping my head can catch up to my feet.
(15:21:00) Twigga: *hugs* Soo maybe no turtle time today. But they will be swimming and thinking of you...
(15:21:25) thomaswfaulkner: Oh no, I'm going to drag a client out there so I can make that space.
(15:21:35) thomaswfaulkner: Nobody puts my turtles aside.
(15:23:07) Twigga: 14. Jedi are guardians of peace. We believe in helping all those that are in need, in whatever form, to the best of our ability. We recognise that sometimes providing help requires courage in the face of adversity but understand that conflict is resolved through peace, understanding and harmony.
(15:23:32) Twigga: Will you have time to chat this over Thomas?
(15:24:13) thomaswfaulkner: Of course! How much time though is the pivotal question. I believe I have thirty minutes or so.
(15:24:29) Twigga: Nice.
(15:24:37) thomaswfaulkner: This teaching reminds me of the mantra, "If not me then who."
(15:25:02) thomaswfaulkner: If I have the capacity to help without throwing myself off balance, then why not?
(15:25:20) Twigga: Oooh - that came out of the world wars that phrase I think too - so it's been tested by fire!
(15:25:48) Twigga: Peace is something I've not always sought. I think I've thought it'd be boring, in the past.
(15:26:28) Twigga: But then I kinda realised how much brain work it can involve bringing peace to others. And that brain work was interesting and exciting!
(15:27:05) Twigga: For me, it's about constant learning and growing; and willingness to get it wrong 1000 times before it starts to go right.
(15:27:43) Twigga: And when we're good at owning up to our weaknesses, it's so much easier to stay in balance.
(15:28:00) thomaswfaulkner: The vulnerability to accept that we are wrong and the discipline to keep trying. I love it.
(15:28:24) Twigga: You're already sitting on the ground, you're hard to push over!
(15:29:00) thomaswfaulkner: I'll fall over to save you the trouble.:D:D
(15:29:08) thomaswfaulkner: But you're so right
(15:29:45) thomaswfaulkner: There is always a time to reflect on our effort and see how that is helping us move forward.
(15:29:55) thomaswfaulkner: Steve reminds me to be the tide that lifts all boats
(15:30:20) Twigga: Please do! And trip me up when you're down there, 'cause the best buddies you can find in the world are sitting on blankets in the park, enjoying the sun.
(15:30:33) Twigga: What's that all about - Steve's quote?
(15:32:29) thomaswfaulkner: I use it in comparison to Carlos' "Build don't tear down." We want to be that tide that lifts all the boats around us. Improving ourselves to improve the world around us. We don't want to be the tallest building in a city of embers or rubbish. By lifting everyone else up, we also lift ourselves up.
(15:32:38) Temple remote: Rosalyn_J has been logged out (Timeout).
(15:33:30) Twigga: YES! that clicks into the thing I have humming at the back of my head that I love so much jediism - the interconnected-ness - the co-dependancy.
(15:34:14) Twigga: I was trying super hard for independence, and what would I have gotten had I achieved my dream? Well, my DREAM! And no-one to share it with
(15:34:29) Twigga: Very dull!
(15:34:58) Twigga: Community is really important. Friends are really important.
(15:35:43) thomaswfaulkner: Yes! Exactly, every night we try to have a round table discussion about that with the kiddos. Sure, it's feels nice to be right all of the time and success can make life easier, but it's that person we choose to be to others that makes that lasting impact.
(15:36:07) Twigga: Aww... that's so super sweet!
(15:36:21) thomaswfaulkner: Interdependence, Impermanence, and Emptiness.
(15:36:22) Twigga: :favorite: for your parenting skills...
(15:36:29) thomaswfaulkner: There is soooooooo much in those three words.
(15:37:00) Twigga: Impermanence and emptiness I think I come at with one idea for me - simplicity.
(15:37:53) Twigga: Still working out what a simple life would look like; but I think it's a bit more than just the carbon-neutral footprint my ecologist self is very much up for...
(15:39:13) thomaswfaulkner: I think your on a good start though.
(15:39:28) thomaswfaulkner: Thank you for caring for my soil!
(15:39:35) thomaswfaulkner: *our soil
(15:39:40) Twigga: Thanks... I would like to know more about impermanence and emptiness...
(15:40:18) Twigga: Ah yes! I have a couple of interns to help me now while I am away on holiday - it's very exciting!
(15:40:36) Twigga: I hope I can lead them well...
(15:41:09) thomaswfaulkner: You have minions! That's amazing! If you care about them like you do with us here, I have no doubt that you will.
(15:41:26) Twigga: Ha! Maybe!
(15:41:44) Twigga: I know you have time commitments - want to creed it up?
(15:42:05) thomaswfaulkner: Yes, please...but you are leading this time!
(15:42:08) Twigga: (I'll find out more about impermanence and emptiness sometimes
(15:42:16) Twigga: what?
(15:42:22) Twigga: I gotta get a copy up...
(15:42:25) Twigga: one sec.
(15:42:31) thomaswfaulkner: One
(15:42:32) thomaswfaulkner: two
(15:42:34) thomaswfaulkner: three
(15:42:36) thomaswfaulkner: four
(15:42:39) thomaswfaulkner: :D:D
(15:42:55) Twigga: Here goes...
(15:42:57) Twigga: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(15:43:09) thomaswfaulkner: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(15:43:17) Twigga: Where there is hatred I shall bring Love;
(15:43:27) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is hatred, I shall bring love;
(15:43:30) Twigga: Where there is injury, pardon;
(15:43:38) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is injury, pardon;
(15:43:43) Twigga: Where there is doubt, faith;
(15:43:51) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is doubt, faith;
(15:44:03) Twigga: Where there is dispair, hope;
(15:44:10) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is despair, hope;
(15:44:16) Twigga: Where there is darkness, light;
(15:44:26) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is darkness, light;
(15:44:32) Twigga: And where there is sadness, joy.
(15:44:43) thomaswfaulkner: And where there is sadness, joy.
(15:44:47) Twigga: I am a Jedi!
(15:44:55) thomaswfaulkner: I am a Jedi!
(15:45:11) Twigga: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(15:45:26) thomaswfaulkner: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(15:45:29) Twigga: To be understood as to understand;
(15:45:40) thomaswfaulkner: To be understood as to understand;
(15:45:42) Twigga: To be loved as to love;
(15:45:54) thomaswfaulkner: To be loved, as to love;
(15:46:03) Twigga: For it is in giving that we recieve;
(15:46:12) thomaswfaulkner: For it is in giving that we receive;
(15:46:20) Twigga: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(15:46:30) thomaswfaulkner: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(15:46:44) Twigga: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(15:46:57) thomaswfaulkner: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(15:47:01) Twigga: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(15:47:14) thomaswfaulkner: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(15:47:24) thomaswfaulkner: Thank you, thank you, thank you!
(15:47:26) Twigga: ... Thanks for that Thomas. I'd not realised how much work was involved!
(15:47:30) Twigga:
(15:47:51) Twigga: :favorite: Have a wonderful day my friend.
(15:48:29) Twigga: It'll take a bit of practice before I can actually lead that and concentrate on the words!
(15:48:50) thomaswfaulkner: It's all in the fingers! You too, friend! You too. Hopefully my day will slow down in a few hours and I can catch up.
(15:49:01) Twigga: *nods*
(15:49:22) Twigga: I'll be about studying - finals finish on Friday!
(15:49:28) Twigga: see you!

(15:05:43) Twigga: 15. Jedi believe in eternal life through the Force. We do not become obsessed in mourning those who pass. We may grieve at their passing but we are content, knowing that they will forever be a part of the Force and so always a part of us.
(15:06:34) Twigga: I dunno how to talk about this one...
(15:08:14) Temple remote: thomaswfaulkner logs into the Chat.
(15:08:39) Twigga: I think it's because I've not really found it a problem, and I'm now questioning whether I should have more of a problem with death than I've had... if that makes sense at all, in any way.
(15:09:39) Rosalyn_J: no yeah, makes sense to me
(15:10:19) Twigga: Everything's getting questioned by IP
(15:10:26) Rosalyn_J: coming from a christian perspective, its at once easy and difficult
(15:10:39) Twigga: Yeah? How so?
(15:10:40) Rosalyn_J: there is no heaven for Jedi
(15:11:12) Twigga: (It did sound really boring... no offense)
(15:11:51) Twigga: (i.e. I probably don't get the concept properly
(15:12:52) Rosalyn_J: me either then
(15:13:42) Twigga: When I see a "belief" statement, I kinda think of "doubt" - that you need one for the other.
(15:14:03) Twigga: It's like and invitation to come wrestle. You might find something.
(15:15:01) Rosalyn_J: oh
(15:15:15) Rosalyn_J: so it has to be deeper for you?
(15:15:34) Twigga: deeper than what?
(15:16:10) Rosalyn_J: as a teaching. 15 has to be deeper? not something that can be easily understood?
(15:16:12) Twigga: being able to say "I believe in the force" and then inside my head screaming "You really have no idea what you're talking about"...
(15:16:23) Rosalyn_J: right
(15:16:27) Twigga: Yeah.
(15:16:36) Rosalyn_J: maybe the force is a way to say that simply
(15:16:52) Rosalyn_J: like I believe in odpjegjrogp[ejrh4iy5hl y'#{we wlq
(15:17:04) Twigga: It's got to be a knowing of a different kind that being able to but words together.
(15:17:31) Rosalyn_J: knowing evolves with the knower I guess
(15:17:40) Twigga: Hmm... I dunno. I think the word stands for something, but it's our job to work that out.
(15:17:49) Rosalyn_J: thats why no one can BE wise
(15:17:58) Twigga:
(15:18:14) Twigga: Gotta keep working?
(15:18:33) Rosalyn_J: gotta keep exploring at least
(15:19:13) Twigga: Nice.
(15:20:36) Twigga: Is this the only belief statement in the teachings?
(15:21:36) Rosalyn_J: im not sure
(15:21:44) Rosalyn_J: let me read it again
(15:22:13) thomaswfaulkner: I do not believe so
(15:22:29) thomaswfaulkner: I know there is one on the belief of love and compassion
(15:22:31) Twigga:
(15:22:33) Rosalyn_J: there is one in 1
(15:23:13) Twigga: Ok - so we have belief in love and eternal life.
(15:23:17) Twigga: Interesting.
(15:23:30) Twigga: :favorite:
(15:23:44) Rosalyn_J: we also have a belief in the Force
(15:23:57) Twigga: And the Jedi believe statement....
(15:24:08) Rosalyn_J: right
(15:24:44) Twigga: So there's quite a lot of things to have challenged, actually, in jediism.
(15:25:16) Rosalyn_J: the entire doctrine can be challenged
(15:25:27) Rosalyn_J: thats how we get our individual flavors
(15:25:31) Twigga: LOADS of things on which to become "educated" both by sharing experiences of others (reading, say) and through our own experiences.
(15:25:55) Rosalyn_J: (nod)
(15:26:09) Twigga: Sure, we can challenge the whole doctrine - but I think belief statements are where doctrine, in my view, challenges us.
(15:26:26) Rosalyn_J: wow
(15:26:29) Twigga: I can't read a "believe" and simply capitulate.
(15:26:33) Rosalyn_J: well
(15:26:45) Rosalyn_J: it depends on where the challenge is needed
(15:26:51) Rosalyn_J: teaching 2
(15:26:59) Rosalyn_J: jedi maintain a clear mind
(15:27:26) Rosalyn_J: if I have a muddy one, the challenge is clearing it, or justifying its muddiness
(15:28:26) Twigga: Meditation is vital; a clear mind however? That just seems beyond me.
(15:29:38) Rosalyn_J: clear mind is needed for decisions
(15:30:00) Twigga: Nah - I make decisions... lots of decisions, I'm sure.
(15:30:23) Twigga: But it might be better with a clear mind I suppose
(15:30:29) Rosalyn_J: one can still make decisions
(15:30:57) Rosalyn_J: without a clear mind it can be hard to sus out your own motive
(15:31:45) Twigga: Ha ha ha... yeah! I'll take that!
(15:32:51) Twigga: I'll just assume I'm lovely all the time, but I know no-one is!
(15:33:20) Rosalyn_J: sorry slight emergency
(15:33:27) Twigga: *nods*
(15:33:29) Twigga: later Ros!
(15:34:15) Twigga: What's your take on dying Thomas, Brian, if you've a moment... I'd be interested to hear.
(15:34:42) Brick: dead is dead
(15:35:05) Twigga: Life in the force?
(15:37:25) Brick: I interpret that more as, the atoms of our body become other stuff in the interconnectedness of things
(15:37:47) Twigga: Is the Force things?
(15:39:26) Brick: for me, ‘The Force’ is the name given to the energy/power/*vague metaphysical descriptor* that Jedi believe interconnects everything in the universe.
(15:39:37) Twigga: And you?
(15:39:54) Brick: and me what?
(15:40:27) Twigga: Do you believe 'The Force' interconnects everything in the universe.
(15:41:52) Twigga: Why would anyone believe in anything so cuckoo?
(15:42:01) Brick: We are all part of everyone and everything whether we call ourselves Jedi or not. Every person that I have ever come into contact with, regardless of the length of the stay, had something to say or contribute or do that has had an impact in my experience of life, my path. That is interconnectedness. That is The Force.
(15:42:17) thomaswfaulkner: I've come to interpret it both as the glue and the manifested product of all the interplayings of being and non-being.
(15:42:37) thomaswfaulkner: Much better put, Brick!
(15:43:13) Twigga: Co-dependence?
(15:43:17) Brick: Is that cuckoo? I think of it from a scientific perspective. Like the forces that act upon sub-atomic particles. there wasn't that force there, then we'd fall through the floor
(15:43:32) thomaswfaulkner: And emptiness and impermanence
(15:43:56) Twigga: You got time for more on emptiness and impermanence today thomas?
(15:44:20) thomaswfaulkner: Yet another day, I must leave you in the dark. Muahahaha
(15:44:30) Twigga: *dang*
(15:44:32) Twigga:
(15:44:36) Brick: lmao
(15:44:53) Twigga: I got one more day, then I'll be off I'll miss this time!
(15:45:21) thomaswfaulkner: Case notes make the tippy tap typing sooo hard. I should be okay for tomorrow though.
(15:45:35) Twigga: awesome!
(15:45:44) Twigga: Shall we get creedy?
(15:46:11) Brick: can do
(15:46:19) Twigga: Nice
(15:46:43) Brick: Who is leading?
(15:46:51) thomaswfaulkner: you!
(15:46:58) Twigga: Yay!
(15:47:11) Brick: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(15:47:25) Twigga: I am a Jedi, an instrument of Peace;
(15:47:28) thomaswfaulkner: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;
(15:47:36) Brick: Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
(15:47:47) Twigga: Where there is hatred, I shall bring Love;
(15:47:52) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is hatred, I shall bring love;
(15:47:55) Brick: Where there is injury, pardon;
(15:47:57) Rosalyn_J: where there is hatred, I shall bring love
(15:48:05) thomaswfaulkner: Where three is injury, pardon;
(15:48:06) Twigga: Where there is injury, pardon;
(15:48:09) Rosalyn_J: where there is injury, pardon
(15:48:17) Brick: Where there is doubt, faith;
(15:48:28) Rosalyn_J: where there is doubt, faith
(15:48:28) Twigga: Where there is doubt, faith;
(15:48:31) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is doubt, faith;
(15:48:41) Brick: Where there is despair, hope;
(15:48:52) Twigga: Where there is despair, hope;
(15:49:01) Rosalyn_J: where there is despair, hope
(15:49:02) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is despair, hope;
(15:49:08) Brick: Where there is darkness, light;
(15:49:19) thomaswfaulkner: Where there is darkness, light;
(15:49:19) Twigga: Where there is darkness, light;
(15:49:21) Rosalyn_J: where there is darkness, light
(15:49:31) Brick: And where there is sadness, joy.
(15:49:41) Twigga: And where there is sadness, joy.
(15:49:46) thomaswfaulkner: And where there is sadness, joy.
(15:49:47) Rosalyn_J: and where there is sadness, jpy
(15:49:57) Brick: I am a Jedi.
(15:50:03) thomaswfaulkner: I am a Jedi.
(15:50:04) Twigga: I am a Jedi.
(15:50:08) Rosalyn_J: I am a Jedi
(15:50:14) Brick: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(15:50:32) Twigga: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(15:50:35) thomaswfaulkner: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(15:50:37) Rosalyn_J: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
(15:50:49) Brick: To be understood as to understand;
(15:50:59) Twigga: to be understood as to understand;
(15:51:05) Rosalyn_J: to be understood as to understand
(15:51:08) thomaswfaulkner: To be understood, as to understand
(15:51:14) Brick: To be loved as to love;
(15:51:23) Rosalyn_J: to love as to love
(15:51:23) Twigga: To be loved as to Love;
(15:51:24) thomaswfaulkner: To be loved, as to love;
(15:51:34) Brick: For it is in giving that we receive;
(15:51:45) thomaswfaulkner: For it is in giving that we receive;
(15:51:49) Rosalyn_J: for it is in giving that we receive
(15:51:59) Twigga: For it is in giving that we recieve;
(15:52:03) Brick: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(15:52:18) Twigga: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(15:52:22) Rosalyn_J: it is in pardoning that we are pardoned
(15:52:27) thomaswfaulkner: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
(15:52:32) Brick: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(15:52:48) Twigga: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(15:52:49) thomaswfaulkner: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(15:53:02) Rosalyn_J: and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life
(15:53:06) Brick: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(15:53:20) Twigga: The force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(15:53:26) thomaswfaulkner: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(15:53:28) Rosalyn_J: the Force is with me always for I am a Jedi
(15:54:14) Twigga: Thank you Brick, and thanks for hosting Ros!
(15:54:57) thomaswfaulkner: Well done, Brick!
(15:55:28) Twigga: Hope you all have lovely days ahead.

(15:13:16) Twigga: Hello Ros!
(15:13:25) Rosalyn_J: Hi
(15:13:26) thomaswfaulkner: Good morning, Ros!
(15:13:37) Rosalyn_J: Hello
(15:14:01) Twigga: I grabbed the teaching already
(15:14:08) Twigga: It's a good one
(15:14:14) Twigga: 16. Jedi make a commitment to their cause and to humanity. Our ideals, philosophies, and practices define the belief of Jediism and we take action on this path for self-improvement and to help others. We are both the witnesses and protectors of the Jedi way by the practice of our convictions.
(15:14:17) Rosalyn_J: Thank you
(15:14:41) Rosalyn_J: Hmm
(15:15:01) Rosalyn_J: Thoughts?
(15:15:04) Twigga: :favorite::favorite::favorite::favorite::favorite: This is why Jediism's all ok.
(15:15:40) Twigga: we take action. HURRAY!
(15:16:50) thomaswfaulkner: We breathe life to the doctrine through our actions.
(15:17:25) Rosalyn_J: Commitment to our cause can also give us the delusion of a one man army
(15:17:51) Rosalyn_J: Sticking it to the man, down with authority and such
(15:17:58) Twigga: AND - it's the last of all the teachings. Which I like... all that hot-housing and thinking before you're let loose... justice, peace, meditation, well-being, patience, skills and knowledge, integrity, clarity, duty... Anazing.
(15:19:18) Twigga: I think that's where it's NOT sticking it to the man. It's the last teaching because you have a lot of boring, boring man; and THEN you stick it to him where he, just like any man, has slipped up (so you recognise your own weaknesses, and you can stick it to him in a really kind and compassionate way).
(15:19:48) Twigga: 1-15 "the man", 16 "Stick it to him".
(15:20:03) Rosalyn_J: Oh
(15:20:39) Twigga: Just my own take on it though - came out of you saying that the things can really build on each other...
(15:21:49) Twigga: And as thomas said - it's where it comes alive.
(15:22:36) Rosalyn_J: (Nod)
(15:25:07) Twigga: It's why I like Jediism so much. This active aspect.
(15:25:20) Rosalyn_J: Right
(15:26:03) Rosalyn_J: And as you say you need to have a good grounding in those first 15
(15:26:04) Twigga: I don't always have the courage to act; but it adds a sort of... layer of "well, you thought about it a lot, so... go-on".
(15:26:24) Rosalyn_J: How so
(15:26:41) Twigga: I dunno - it's just a think that's there.
(15:26:44) Rosalyn_J: My courage bucket some rimes is empty
(15:26:51) Twigga: It doesn't make sense.
(15:27:10) Rosalyn_J: No it doesn't
(15:27:19) Twigga: You can have some of mine... my courage is sometimes a bit idle, twiddling it's fingers waiting for something to do....
(15:27:56) Twigga: It could learn a fair bit from the uses that you've been putting your own courage to
(15:29:31) Twigga: That grounding is really important. There's a phrase in peacework: "The opposite of good is 'well-meant'".
(15:30:25) Twigga: You can make a diabetic sad (or worse, sick, if they have poor self-control) by giving them chocolate.
(15:30:42) Rosalyn_J: Interesting phrase
(15:31:06) Twigga: It is... it makes you question your motivations.
(15:35:12) Twigga: And I think that is the bit that makes this an endless journey. Because I think there's always a closer to "good" thing than my current idea of "good" today... and it keeps me searching that out.
(15:37:08) Twigga: And that idea I find tricky, because I like finishing things
(15:39:03) Twigga: Do your ideas of emptiness fit into this thomas? I'm still super curious....
(15:41:01) thomaswfaulkner: I like how you put that Twigga. Once we know that what we do is "good" then we stop growing and moving on to challenge that way of being, in a positive manner.

It would be a stretch to include emptiness there, but I guess it could apply.
(15:41:25) Twigga:
(15:41:50) Twigga: I find "good" and "bad" really difficult concepts actually...
(15:42:02) Twigga: I don't really "get" them...
(15:42:11) Twigga: I'm not sure they exist!
(15:42:57) Rosalyn_J: Society
(15:43:48) thomaswfaulkner: I find they are good socratic thinking primers.
(15:43:57) thomaswfaulkner: Why is this good/bad?
(15:44:08) thomaswfaulkner: And down the rabbit hole you go.
(15:44:44) thomaswfaulkner: Challenging and reflecting our thoughts and beliefs
(15:44:47) Twigga: Can you explain thomas? What's a socratic primer. Why would the rabbit hole be a good place to go?
(15:45:32) Twigga: And I'm not sure what you mean by "society" either Ros. Is society the source of "good" and "bad" ideas?
(15:46:07) thomaswfaulkner: Sure...I use "good and bad" to help me reflect on my motives and beings
(15:46:15) thomaswfaulkner: Am I a good person?
(15:46:19) thomaswfaulkner: What does that mean?
(15:46:25) thomaswfaulkner: I did X
(15:46:35) thomaswfaulkner: I think X is good
(15:46:40) thomaswfaulkner: Why did I do X
(15:46:49) thomaswfaulkner: Did I hurt anyone in doing X
(15:47:39) thomaswfaulkner: I was really interested in my younger years to understand pure altruism and how moral concepts work
(15:47:51) thomaswfaulkner: Why do we help if there is no benefit to us?
(15:48:04) thomaswfaulkner: Are we good? Are we benefiting?
(15:48:13) thomaswfaulkner: There is a lot of questions to get lost in.
(15:48:26) Twigga: Yeah... VERY lost!
(15:48:52) Twigga: They're all "good" questions to ask
(15:49:22) thomaswfaulkner: I find myself just making an effort to be effortless in my actions. Going more with the flow and only using those socratic questioning to help me through really difficult situations.
(15:49:41) thomaswfaulkner: IS IT GOOD TO PUT JELLY ON MY TOAST?!
(15:49:48) Twigga:
(15:49:51) thomaswfaulkner: (whoosh down the rabbit hole) :D:D
(15:49:53) Twigga: You'd never do anything!
(15:50:32) thomaswfaulkner: Blast, you've found my secret.
(15:51:15) Twigga: So a lot of our ability to act as Jedi is a confidence that our "well meaning-ness" is actually close (enough) to "good" to let us act; but being aware there will be times we'll get it utterly wrong; and it's important to be listening out, all the time.
(15:52:22) thomaswfaulkner: This is exactly how I feel about it. I couldn't have said it better.
(15:53:07) Twigga:
(15:53:17) thomaswfaulkner: There is a tricky part at the last part of the teaching that I don't think we've touched on yet. How do you define "protectors" of the Jedi way?
(15:54:49) Rosalyn_J: Individually
(15:55:10) Twigga: I think we have... "by the practice of our convictions." - i.e. the practices both of real-world actions, and reflection on how things went, held up against those ideals, philosophies, and practices which define our belief of Jediism...
(15:56:18) Twigga: ... but that's really hard when your ideals, philosophies, and practices are of a neophyte!
(15:56:52) Twigga: Does that match up with your understanding of "individually" Ros?
(16:00:53) Twigga: I'm looking forward to getting my "ideals, philosophies, and practices" a little bit off the ground.
(16:01:22) thomaswfaulkner: I've come to interpret it through how I allow Jediism to manifest through my actions and my compassion for others.
(16:01:32) thomaswfaulkner: Have you tried jumping?
(16:01:59) Twigga: yes, and flapping my arms about; but it just makes my head hurt...
(16:03:07) Twigga: so your ideals, philosophies, and practices are what you do; not what you think about what you do? It's hard to be an external observer of yourself... It's hard to know what you show.
(16:03:08) thomaswfaulkner: If it counts your ideas became ethereal yesterday and manifested in something that I wrote about in my AP journal.
(16:03:43) Rosalyn_J: Well 16 is an individual teaching. Actually all are
(16:03:48) Twigga: .... gmbl gmbl... veil... AP journals!
(16:05:10) Rosalyn_J: If we are content to say find your own way to Jedi in the first 15, we have to be willing with the 16th
(16:06:16) Twigga: Are we? Or is that why you got the whole apprentice system?
(16:06:44) Twigga: Again, I say "It's hard to know what you show."
(16:07:48) Rosalyn_J: The apprentice system is not a molding but a growing
(16:08:59) Twigga: Kids grow 'cause they have things to push against.
(16:09:58) Rosalyn_J: Hmm
(16:10:59) Twigga: People can be very encouraging and nice about, say a dutch exam (all finished now, yay!) which was no way near as hard for me as sitting still on a plane for 10 hours without screaming will be. I'm not going to learn to face my fears if I just keep doing those things which society encourages me into as well.
(16:11:40) Twigga: to be frank, I'd probably do very little! But that's 'cause my base-state is a pretty lazy one.
(16:13:34) Rosalyn_J: So the apprenticrship is a questioning
(16:14:05) Twigga: ... I dunno - I'll let you know if and when I get there
(16:14:30) Rosalyn_J: Its been my experience that the thing we hate to do, fear to do, will often be our lesson
(16:14:35) Rosalyn_J: Because we
(16:14:56) Rosalyn_J: Let slip " I hate flying"
(16:15:18) Twigga: I do... REALLY do.
(16:16:41) Twigga: Well, I'm ok with gliders.
(16:16:50) Twigga: Everything else sucks.
(16:17:22) Rosalyn_J: You'd like some tools for that wouldn't you?
(16:17:45) Rosalyn_J: So we give you a lesson to come up with some tools
(16:17:54) Twigga: hmm... I'd like a week to be able to take a boat instead!
(16:18:17) Rosalyn_J: Well
(16:18:21) Twigga:
(16:18:35) thomaswfaulkner: I have a client in the lobby. I'll catch up with you all on the other side.
(16:18:57) Twigga: see you Thomas Have a beautiful day!
(16:20:01) Twigga: It sounds like it'll be a-okay Ros.
(16:21:13) Rosalyn_J: OK
(16:21:28) Rosalyn_J: Ready for creed?
(16:21:34) Twigga: Yeah!
(16:21:38) Twigga:
(16:21:47) Rosalyn_J: _
(16:22:01) Rosalyn_J: I am a Jedi an instrument of peace
(16:22:15) Twigga: I am a Jedi an instrument of Peace
(16:22:26) Rosalyn_J: Where there is hatred I shall bring love
(16:22:37) Twigga: Where there is hatred, I shall bring Love;
(16:22:50) Rosalyn_J: Where there is injury pardon
(16:22:55) Temple remote: thomaswfaulkner has been logged out (Timeout).
(16:23:04) Twigga: Where there is injury, pardon;
(16:23:16) Rosalyn_J: Where there is doubt faith
(16:23:21) Twigga: Where there is doubt, faith;
(16:23:34) Rosalyn_J: Where there is despair hope
(16:23:45) Twigga: Where there is despair, hope;
(16:23:57) Rosalyn_J: Where there is Darkness light
(16:24:01) Twigga: Where there is darkness, light;
(16:24:13) Rosalyn_J: And where there is sadness Joy
(16:24:19) Twigga: And where there is sadness, Joy;
(16:24:32) Rosalyn_J: I am a Jedi
(16:24:39) Twigga: I am a Jedi
(16:24:53) Rosalyn_J: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
(16:25:10) Twigga: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
(16:25:23) Rosalyn_J: To be understood as to understand
(16:25:28) Twigga: To be understood as to understand;
(16:25:41) Rosalyn_J: To be loved as to love
(16:25:45) Twigga: to be loved as to Love;
(16:25:55) Rosalyn_J: For it is in giving that we receive
(16:26:08) Twigga: For it is in giving that we recieve
(16:26:20) Rosalyn_J: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
(16:26:24) Twigga: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
(16:26:39) Rosalyn_J: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life
(16:26:48) Twigga: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(16:27:02) Rosalyn_J: The Force is with me always for I am a Jedi
(16:27:08) Twigga: The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(16:27:21) Twigga: Thank you so much Ros!
(16:27:28) Twigga: would you like me to post/
(16:27:33) Rosalyn_J:
(16:27:42) Rosalyn_J: Please

(06:00:14) Twigga: Hello!
(06:02:29) Temple remote: Rosalyn_J logs into the Chat.
(06:02:36) Rosalyn_J: Hiya
(06:04:20) Rosalyn_J: How goes it?
(06:08:51) Twigga: Good!
(06:09:03) Twigga: Just on the train to Berlin...
(06:09:13) Twigga: How are things with you Ros?
(06:10:43) Twigga: (Sorry about the internet lag there!)
(06:12:34) Rosalyn_J: Pretty good.
(06:12:54) Rosalyn_J: Yesterday had an issue w/ skirt
(06:13:10) Rosalyn_J: Sorted it and then it was 13:30
(06:15:30) Rosalyn_J: So what's on the agenda today?
(06:16:17) Twigga: I dunno!
(06:16:27) Twigga: For me, just travel.
(06:16:41) Twigga: But for the meditation?
(06:17:11) Twigga: I'm sorry your skirt misbehaved on you
(06:19:08) Rosalyn_J: Nah you
(06:19:14) Rosalyn_J: I'm on bus
(06:19:17) Twigga: I've been plugging through the maxims in IP - it's been better than I thought.
(06:19:18) Rosalyn_J: Lol
(06:19:25) Rosalyn_J: Oh good
(06:19:45) Twigga: You never know what you might find!
(06:19:45) Rosalyn_J: When I was younger I did them in one shot
(06:19:54) Twigga: Yeah?
(06:21:36) Rosalyn_J: Yeah standards changed in 6 years
(06:21:58) Temple remote: Vera_Gman logs into the Chat.
(06:22:08) Twigga:
(06:22:40) Twigga: It depends what IP is for really.
(06:22:57) Twigga: Process or prize? Or, something else...
(06:23:17) Rosalyn_J: Right
(06:23:35) Rosalyn_J: Vera did you get your app sorted?
(06:23:52) Twigga: So, if it's just a comprehension exercise, one shot is enough...
(06:25:00) Rosalyn_J: Right
(06:26:13) Twigga: I arrived already with a bag full of questions to throw at those ideas. I still want it all to fail under the pressure I put on it.
(06:26:19) Rosalyn_J: That's why this time is important
(06:26:37) Rosalyn_J: Is it failing?
(06:26:39) Twigga: Then I can leave, going "Yep! Broken!"
(06:26:55) Twigga: Not yet, unfortunately.
(06:27:09) Twigga: I might have to be proven wrong...
(06:27:22) Twigga: But I'm sure I will live.
(06:27:27) Vera_Gman: I contacted the Madhatter I got no responde. But I can try again.
(06:27:52) Rosalyn_J: He's usually busy
(06:28:04) Rosalyn_J: Give him till weekend
(06:28:19) Rosalyn_J: In the meantime you can start up
(06:28:30) Twigga: Good work Vera. He sometimes takes a while to get back. A week on average for me, with a reminder sometimes needed...
(06:28:47) Rosalyn_J: We only need an app if you want to be an apprentice
(06:28:51) Twigga: Yeah, weekends are good.
(06:29:06) Rosalyn_J: Which can take e
(06:29:17) Rosalyn_J: 3-6 months lol
(06:29:48) Twigga: 3-6 months on membership application now?!
(06:30:02) Rosalyn_J: No
(06:30:06) Twigga: Am I misunderstanding?
(06:30:14) Rosalyn_J: 3-6 to apprentice
(06:30:34) Twigga: Ah! For the IP to get written.
(06:30:38) Rosalyn_J: Depending on how quick you do IP
(06:31:01) Rosalyn_J: Those are quick estimates
(06:31:09) Twigga:
(06:31:40) Twigga: We have a lot of returning Novices this summer!
(06:32:07) Rosalyn_J: We do
(06:32:21) Rosalyn_J: Its schools out
(06:32:23) Twigga: It's really exciting.
(06:32:50) Twigga: And I look forward to IP Study Hall to see everyone there.
(06:32:53) Vera_Gman: I undrstand we all have personal lives
(06:34:58) Rosalyn_J: You can start the IP though Vera
(06:35:39) Twigga: IP's been brilliant!
(06:35:47) Vera_Gman: uf I am slow lurner i am right now chewing the power of the myth book and i am not iven duone with the firs chapter hehe
(06:35:51) Twigga: I don't want to finish it
(06:36:34) Rosalyn_J: But, but apprenticeship
(06:36:38) Twigga: Take the time. I think it's worth it.
(06:37:29) Rosalyn_J: Yes Vera. I regret rushing all those years ago
(06:37:38) Twigga: You're not alone going through it with study hall and meditation sessions!
(06:37:55) Vera_Gman: I really like it verry mutch
(06:38:20) Twigga: But I think when you did it Ros, you didn't get into community until later.
(06:38:25) Rosalyn_J: I'm glad
(06:38:37) Rosalyn_J: True
(06:39:07) Rosalyn_J: I was pretty excited too
(06:39:14) Twigga:
(06:39:32) Twigga: I'm just daunted!
(06:39:58) Twigga: I'm in control with IP.
(06:40:41) Twigga: Apprenticeship seems to involve a deep old bucket of trust.
(06:41:30) Twigga: Plus, probably some desire to be a knight
(06:41:49) Rosalyn_J: Find someone you trust already
(06:41:56) Twigga: ... Which mostly sounds like hard work to me!
(06:42:07) Rosalyn_J: Don't worry about that so much
(06:42:23) Twigga: Ha ha ha!
(06:42:44) Rosalyn_J: If all you want to do is learn, you don't have to be a knight
(06:42:45) Twigga: I don't need to for a while. I can see IP still taking me until Christmas.
(06:43:29) Twigga: Personal Tools
(06:43:36) Rosalyn_J: Alright
(06:43:36) Twigga: Blerch!
(06:44:38) Twigga: Sorry. I will face it sometime. But I know I'm dancing round it.
(06:44:43) Rosalyn_J: Sure its not bad
(06:45:07) Rosalyn_J: Tools?
(06:45:12) Twigga: Yeah
(06:45:23) Twigga: Dunno his to tackle it yet.
(06:45:28) Twigga: *how
(06:45:38) Twigga: But, maxims at the moment...
(06:45:50) Twigga: They're what I'm on NOW.
(06:46:24) Rosalyn_J: Yep
(06:46:49) Twigga: How's your post-Knighthood study going?Rosalyn_J
(06:47:21) Twigga: I assume you just keep on plugging at it - though it must be tough with being Pastor too!
(06:47:35) Twigga: ... Dunno where you find the time personally!
(06:48:38) Vera_Gman: did you have a knighting seeremony?
(06:49:24) Twigga: There is one tomorrow, for Thomas if you can make it Vera!
(06:49:38) Twigga: It's fun to be there...
(06:50:43) Vera_Gman: yes i will come where it is? And when?
(06:51:11) Twigga: It's hosted here, in AJAX chat
(06:51:24) Vera_Gman: nice
(06:52:33) Twigga: I think it's 7pm here... Check the forum Announcements > Knighthood
(06:52:50) Twigga: On Saturday
(06:53:25) Rosalyn_J: Oh post knighthood? Ill be working on re-doing the seminary lessons
(06:54:07) Twigga: Oooh! Before Rax introduces the update?
(06:54:24) Twigga: I can't wait to see how it evolves...
(06:54:54) Twigga: (Evolves! Bio nerd joke - I think he'd be proud)
(06:55:39) Rosalyn_J: After
(06:56:08) Rosalyn_J: As for how I do it, I make it a priority
(06:56:29) Twigga: Sweet. Looking forward to Seminary Study Hall in Discord
(06:56:55) Twigga: *sigh* getting priorities right is hard.
(06:57:56) Twigga: More things to learn how to do!
(06:58:03) Twigga:
(06:58:10) Rosalyn_J: Well it helps that I'm only responsible for me
(06:58:21) Rosalyn_J: No spouse/children
(06:58:54) Twigga: And a temple full of teenagers
(06:59:22) Twigga: Well, I'm older than a teenager, I just still act like one...
(06:59:56) Twigga: ... A nice one. But still a bit moody
(07:00:03) Rosalyn_J:
(07:00:54) Twigga: I really appreciate all the support.
(07:02:12) Twigga: Shall we creed it up? I know you have a day to get on with?
(07:02:23) Rosalyn_J: This is in some ways more difficult
(07:02:30) Rosalyn_J: Ah yes
(07:02:31) Twigga: Or just count this as an informal chat?
(07:02:46) Twigga: ... Sorry, what is more difficult?
(07:02:51) Rosalyn_J: Vera, you wanna do the creed after
(07:03:30) Vera_Gman: witch creed?
(07:03:44) Rosalyn_J: Ours?
(07:04:04) Twigga: *sits down to listen to Ros explain what the creed is*
(07:04:10) Rosalyn_J: Starts with I am a Jedi an instrument of peace
(07:04:42) Rosalyn_J: Just type after I type, ok?
(07:04:50) Vera_Gman: ok
(07:05:11) Rosalyn_J: --
(07:05:37) Rosalyn_J: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace
(07:05:51) Twigga: I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace
(07:06:05) Vera_Gman: I am a Jedi an intrument of peace
(07:06:13) Rosalyn_J: Where there is hatred, I shall bring love
(07:06:37) Twigga: Where there is hatred, I shall bring Love
(07:06:44) Vera_Gman: Where there is hatred, I shall bring love
(07:06:47) Rosalyn_J: Where there is injury, pardon
(07:07:01) Twigga: Where there is injury, pardon
(07:07:05) Vera_Gman: Where there is injury, pardon
(07:07:41) Rosalyn_J: Where there is doubt, faith
(07:07:53) Twigga: Where there is doubt, faith
(07:08:15) Rosalyn_J: Where there is despair, hope
(07:08:18) Vera_Gman: Where there is doubt, faith
(07:08:35) Vera_Gman: Where there is despair, hope
(07:08:35) Twigga: Where there is despair, hope
(07:09:06) Rosalyn_J: Where there is darkness, light
(07:09:16) Twigga: Where there is darkness, light
(07:09:27) Vera_Gman: Where there is darkness, light
(07:09:45) Rosalyn_J: And where there is sadness joy
(07:10:03) Twigga: And where there is sadness, joy.
(07:10:05) Vera_Gman: And where there is sadness joy
(07:11:33) Rosalyn_J: I am a Jedi
(07:11:41) Twigga: I am a Jedi
(07:11:53) Vera_Gman: I am a Jedi
(07:12:36) Rosalyn_J: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
(07:13:07) Twigga: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
(07:13:10) Vera_Gman: I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console
(07:13:34) Rosalyn_J: To be understood as to understand
(07:13:49) Twigga: To be understood as to understand
(07:14:03) Vera_Gman: To be understood as to understand
(07:14:55) Rosalyn_J: To be loved as to love
(07:15:06) Twigga: To be loved as to love
(07:15:10) Vera_Gman: To be loved as to love
(07:16:06) Rosalyn_J: For it is in giving that we receive
(07:16:21) Twigga: For it is in giving that we receive
(07:16:25) Vera_Gman: For it is in giving that we receive
(07:18:17) Rosalyn_J: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
(07:18:38) Twigga: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
(07:18:42) Vera_Gman: It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
(07:19:16) Rosalyn_J: And it is in death that we are born to eternal life
(07:19:26) Twigga: And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
(07:19:57) Vera_Gman: And it is in death that we are born to eternal life
(07:20:15) Rosalyn_J: The Force is with me always for I am a Jedi
(07:20:27) Vera_Gman: The Force is with me always for I am a Jedi
(07:20:36) Twigga: The force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.
(07:20:49) Twigga: ... Thank you Ros.
(07:21:13) Rosalyn_J: Thank you, May the Force be with you both
(07:21:23) Twigga: Felt like a long time. And I know I would have missed it tomorrow at Thomas' knighthood.
(07:21:53) Twigga: Will you send him best wishes and congratulations from me at the time?
(07:22:06) Twigga: I mailed him, but... *shrugs*
(07:22:21) Vera_Gman: that was incredible thank you
(07:22:48) Rosalyn_J: I will
(07:23:03) Twigga: Thanks.
(07:23:18) Rosalyn_J: The Creed is an integral part of our Doctrine here
(07:23:22) Twigga: I remember doing that my first time too Vera.
(07:23:35) Twigga: I watched a few times first though
(07:23:47) Rosalyn_J: I like to refer to it as our "Job Description"
(07:24:00) Twigga: I'm pleased you felt you could join in !
(07:24:10) Twigga: I like that Ros.
(07:24:20) Rosalyn_J: Ah the first time *stares wistfully
(07:24:33) Vera_Gman:
(07:24:37) Twigga: ... Can we post this meditation, since it was a key one for Vera possibly?
(07:24:53) Rosalyn_J: Sure
(07:25:04) Rosalyn_J: Are you at a comp?
(07:25:18) Twigga: Alas no
(07:25:29) Rosalyn_J: Dang
(07:25:37) Twigga: I only have about 7 lines back history...
(07:26:07) Twigga: So, may e it's not possible. But I could write a summary on the forum…

August 6, 2018
[9:04 AM] Twigga: Here
[9:07 AM] rosalyn j: Hmm
[9:08 AM] rosalyn j: Voice?
[9:08 AM] Twigga: Ah, no capacity for me...
[9:09 AM] rosalyn j: Aww
[9:09 AM] Twigga: Sorry. Train!
[9:09 AM] rosalyn j: Gotcha
[9:09 AM] !!benquack!!: I might be able to do voice... but I'm a new human. so I'm not sure if that's awkward or not! :smiley: I might just listen in this time around, if that's cool.
[9:10 AM] Twigga: Not at all awkward.
[9:10 AM] rosalyn j: Its a kinda new thingy
[9:10 AM] !!benquack!!: Oh. Cool cool!
[9:11 AM] Twigga: We've never tried Discord before. I let Thomas know - he was in AJAX
[9:11 AM] rosalyn j: yay spur of the moment!!!
[9:11 AM] rosalyn j: so Twigga, do you know where we are?
[9:12 AM] Twigga: I know I'm currently writing in the maxims...
[9:12 AM] Twigga: I think here, together we'd done some...
[9:13 AM] rosalyn j: by the way @!!benquack!! what I call meditations is actually an opportunity to look at the Doctrine in depth
[9:13 AM] Twigga: But I'm now just done with discretion...
[9:13 AM] rosalyn j: ok we can go there
[9:13 AM] !!benquack!!: Cool!
[9:14 AM] rosalyn j: let me pull up the doctrine and get the explination
❤
1
[9:15 AM] rosalyn j: Discretion: To become invisible.

A Jedi knows there is a time and place for all things. They do not actively interfere in worldly affairs and refrain from overtly supporting or opposing other individuals or organizations
[9:16 AM] !!benquack!!: Ooooh interesting
[9:17 AM] Twigga: In my blurb, I got a bit political. I didn't like the idea of "invisible", because, well, I suppose I connected it with " irresponsible.
[9:18 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah, in my personal philosophy, I kinda disagree with that. But I might be misunderstanding idk,
[9:18 AM] rosalyn j: well consider Tao te Ching 17
[9:18 AM] Twigga: Which is?
[9:19 AM] Twigga: (That's totally NOT in IP!)
[9:19 AM] rosalyn j: well, which is?
[9:19 AM] Twigga: I only heardnof the tao for the first time here, I don't have a copy...
[9:19 AM] !!benquack!!: I'm not entirely sure what it is either, actually
?
1
[9:20 AM] !!benquack!!: Imma google
[9:20 AM] Twigga: Sir Thomas! big hug
[9:20 AM] thomaswfaulkner: I'm a really big fan of that verse.
[9:20 AM] Twigga: Congratulations!
[9:20 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Hello hello hello! And a big thank you, too
[9:21 AM] !!benquack!!: I might me wrong, but is it this one?...
[9:21 AM] Twigga: settles down to listen
[9:21 AM] !!benquack!!: The supreme rulers are hardly known by their subjects.

The lesser are loved and praised.

The even lesser are feared.

The least are despised.


Those who show no trust will not be trusted.

Those who are quiet value the words.

When their task is completed, people will say:

We did it ourselves.
[9:21 AM] !!benquack!!: Also hello other human!
[9:21 AM] Twigga: That's... A bit rough.
[9:22 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Ah, yes! That's it.

Steve Mitchell says it a bit better
[9:22 AM] thomaswfaulkner: When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"
[9:22 AM] rosalyn j: yes
[9:22 AM] !!benquack!!: oooh that makes more sense to me
[9:22 AM] rosalyn j: a lot of people want to be visible
[9:23 AM] rosalyn j: visibly leading, visibly, guidng, visibly jedi-ing
[9:23 AM] Twigga: I agree, this is a better translation.
[9:23 AM] rosalyn j: A Jedi's work is subtle work
[9:23 AM] Twigga: Oh! THAT kind of visible!
[9:23 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay
[9:23 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay, I'm vibing with that a lot more
[9:24 AM] Twigga: Same here!
[9:24 AM] rosalyn j: if we go to a protest, is it to be SEEN as a protestor?
[9:24 AM] !!benquack!!: Aaaah, okay
[9:24 AM] Twigga: Mostly but that's a good thing.
[9:24 AM] Twigga: In my book.
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: if we post on facebook, is it to be seen as vehemently against/for something?
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: and
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: and
[9:25 AM] Twigga: Some things require a push back, because they are wrong
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: is that all we are doing
[9:26 AM] !!benquack!!: I think Rosalyn is saying is it so that you can say "hah, i protested, im a protestor, im cool," or would it be to support a cause without bringing ego along
[9:27 AM] rosalyn j: I imagine that for every speech Martin Luther King gave to a crowd of thousands he wrote a letter to even more
[9:27 AM] Twigga: Thomas let me know recently about something happening in the news via facebook that slipped my radar. If he weren't helping these issues be seen, I can't do anything to put them right. His visibility to me is vital.
[9:27 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah.
[9:28 AM] !!benquack!!: Idk. poke me if im wrong, but I think it's about the motivation behind that visibility?
?
2
[9:28 AM] rosalyn j: right
[9:28 AM] rosalyn j: at least in my opinion
[9:28 AM] !!benquack!!: like, are you being visible for the sake of being visible? or trying to help without making a name for yourself?
[9:29 AM] Twigga: Imagine if MLK ONLY wrote letters! We would have missed LOADS!
[9:29 AM] rosalyn j: true
[9:29 AM] rosalyn j: but the visibility I think came from tones and tones of invisible deeds
[9:29 AM] Twigga: I really didn't even think of the idea of doing visibility for self promotion reasons.
[9:30 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: you dont get a crowd of millions listening to you until youve listened to one
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: and then another
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: and another
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: that creates a fire
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: they werent there for Martin, but for his dream
[9:31 AM] rosalyn j: because his dream was theirs
[9:31 AM] Twigga: Hmm... Maybe.
[9:31 AM] !!benquack!!: Idk though. I reckon sometimes when I'm trying to help a cause, a little egotistical part of me wants to be seen as the good guy. But instead, more meaninful change can come from putting ego aside and lifting others to the forefront?
[9:33 AM] !!benquack!!: Or even... idk... the whole "doing" as much as "saying" bit. Cuz, I can yell about injustices in palestine (for example) as much as I want, and be as loud as I want, but I could actually be helping out in a soup kitchen? Without egotistical reward?
[9:33 AM] !!benquack!!: (If ive totally derailed the topic, please poke me)
[9:34 AM] Twigga: ... I can tell you, shouting about Palestine isn't rewarding :joy:
[9:35 AM] !!benquack!!: ... I mean, you're not wrong. But at the same time, I guess there's a part of me that wants to be seen by others to be doing good and to be saying the right, morally correct things? and I think that part should be challenged/examined.
[9:35 AM] Twigga: I think you're on the right track, but at risk of tying yourself in knots of guilt. This is why I settled on being "good enough".
[9:35 AM] !!benquack!!: Yea
[9:35 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah, that;s a really good pint
[9:36 AM] !!benquack!!: *point
[9:37 AM] Twigga: And Jediism has this wonderfully vague moral relativity about it, which means chasing that "being seen to do the morally right thing" game goes poof
[9:37 AM] !!benquack!!: Huh... Interesting
[9:37 AM] rosalyn j: its so true
[9:37 AM] Twigga: I've not fully got my head about that bit yet though
[9:37 AM] rosalyn j: in those moments I remember 1 Cor 13
[9:37 AM] !!benquack!!: It is that whole, 'what is more important, intention or action' thing a little, I guess?
?
1
[9:37 AM] rosalyn j: or even just the Creed
[9:38 AM] rosalyn j: we are meant to be instruments of peace
[9:38 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:38 AM] Twigga: I copy you Ros re: creed. But Ben, I think not.
[9:38 AM] rosalyn j: but how we go about it, that'll be individual
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: we each have our own compass
[9:39 AM] !!benquack!!: (this is a really cool convo, wow.)
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: as we fine tune it, it can direct us better
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: where
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: is love needed
[9:40 AM] Twigga: Ros is a cool human. She does this every weekday y'know
[9:40 AM] rosalyn j: where is pardon
[9:40 AM] !!benquack!!: Dang... I gotta be here. THis is where it's at
?
1
[9:40 AM] rosalyn j: where is faith, hope, joy, light
[9:40 AM] rosalyn j: and it'll change as we do
9:40 AM] rosalyn j: thats why we can't afford to be rigid
[9:41 AM] Twigga: Ugh. Change. (Rabbit! Do not chase!)
[9:41 AM] rosalyn j: because the Force NEEDS to flow through us
[9:41 AM] rosalyn j: we ought not put barriers in the way
[9:41 AM] !!benquack!!: What kind of barriers? in relation to this particular theme?
[9:42 AM] rosalyn j: when we are convinced something is right/wrong good/bad
[9:42 AM] rosalyn j: in some spaces that can be good
[9:42 AM] Nakis [Work]: (Also a form of attachment, that is, aye?)
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[9:43 AM] rosalyn j: like for example, looking at the whole world and the sort of state its in
[9:43 AM] rosalyn j: BUT
[9:43 AM] rosalyn j: bring that down to the individual level
[9:44 AM] rosalyn j: and if you let that dichotomus thinking define the sort of views you will take into consideration in, say, your circle of influence, thats a bit of a spicy meatball
[9:44 AM] Twigga: :thinking:
[9:45 AM] !!benquack!!: (sorry, what do you mean by dichotomus thinking)
[9:45 AM] rosalyn j: its why some of us can no longer talk about politics at the dinner table
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[9:46 AM] rosalyn j: or why we can't have genuine conversations around topics that are potentially activating
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[9:46 AM] Twigga: ... Why is it we can't have genuine conversations?
[9:46 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay. So, from what I'm understanding, there is something negative to be found in some of ......... wait what twigga said(edited)
[9:47 AM] rosalyn j: because some of us have already chosen sides in the "debate"
[9:47 AM] rosalyn j: and we have our "facts"
[9:47 AM] rosalyn j: and we are ready to win
[9:47 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Up is "better" than down rather than each are parts that define the other
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[9:48 AM] !!benquack!!: yes. but. in some circumstances, around devisive political topics, I genuinely believe my "facts" are correct
[9:49 AM] rosalyn j: so does your friend there
[9:49 AM] !!benquack!!: but. Like. human rights? Doesn't having discussions help? Like, improve people's empathy or something?
[9:50 AM] Twigga: You need to be able to give a bit to get buy-in from the other side...
[9:50 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Discussion is so power
[9:50 AM] thomaswfaulkner: We are choose to listen to each sides
[9:50 AM] Twigga: ... Unless the other side is just... Sick...
[9:50 AM] Twigga: I dunno what to do then.
[9:50 AM] !!benquack!!: But some sides are just wrong though! Like,
[9:50 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Yes, there are those lines too.
[9:51 AM] !!benquack!!: ugh. Im confused
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: I agree
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: so
[9:51 AM] !!benquack!!: (in a good way, i think)
[9:51 AM] Twigga: Thomas was agreeing with you, I think Ben
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: instead of coming with your arsenal ready to bring them to their knees
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: think about the creed
[9:51 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:52 AM] rosalyn j: is there a way that I can bring this forward using love, pardon, faith....
[9:52 AM] !!benquack!!: yeah
[9:53 AM] rosalyn j: because if we have someone rooted in their position, there is no way, despite your facts that they can be unrooted
[9:53 AM] rosalyn j: they have to pull themselves out
[9:53 AM] !!benquack!!: okay, so you're saying to examine how you have these conversations. you're not saying not to have these conversations with people
[9:53 AM] Twigga: Hitting a line can mean harm reduction, rather than simple discussion.
[9:53 AM] rosalyn j: hence the "we did it ourselves"
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[9:54 AM] rosalyn j: yes, harm reduction is sometimes all we can do
[9:54 AM] rosalyn j: just get out of the way
[9:54 AM] !!benquack!!: This is interesting
[9:54 AM] rosalyn j: yes, please have the conversations
[9:55 AM] rosalyn j: examine, where is your ego, what are your motives
[9:55 AM] !!benquack!!: i dunno. I do get angry about things sometimes. But I know that's pretty much the antithisis to the code, and to progress.
[9:55 AM] !!benquack!!: THank you
[9:55 AM] !!benquack!!: this is really useful and important stuff
[9:55 AM] rosalyn j: we can be angry, but we are Jedi
[9:55 AM] rosalyn j: our emotions cannot take the reigns here
[9:56 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:56 AM] Twigga: Anger can show us where we're seeing an injustice - it's ok to be angry.
[9:56 AM] rosalyn j: yes
[9:56 AM] Twigga: Or, feelnit, anyway
[9:56 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:56 AM] Twigga: Better to feel it than bury it.
[9:57 AM] !!benquack!!: definately
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: for example, I value the Social Security program we have here in the states
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: there are some who consider our most vulnerable unworthy
[9:57 AM] !!benquack!!: yup
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: instead of trying to convince them otherwise
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: I took a job to actively help people get it
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[9:58 AM] rosalyn j: and when it comes under attack, I write to my senators and other representatives
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[9:58 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay
[9:58 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay, that's making sense to me now
[9:58 AM] Twigga: (Train change!)
[9:59 AM] rosalyn j: im either thinking of alternatives or having them bring the discussion to the table in a way that helps our most vulnerable
[9:59 AM] !!benquack!!: So, that one saying "the strenght to change what I can, the (something) to accept what I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference?"
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: there is that
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: but I like to think about it this way
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: if I can help in some active way, bring about the change I want to see
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: I will do it
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: I will speak to those willing to listen
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: ah
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: those willing to listen
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: okay(edited)
[10:01 AM] rosalyn j: and work for the changes I think are in the best interest of those who I serve
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: yeah
[10:01 AM] rosalyn j: but I have to constantly evaluate
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[10:02 AM] rosalyn j: and if I get off track I need to know it
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[10:03 AM] !!benquack!!: is one always separate from the group they are trying to serve? because I find it is more difficult to stay objective in political conversation when the impacts of people's opinions, on a larger scale, directly affect my (and my friends') quality of life
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: No, one is not always seperate
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: I was a part of the benefits program
[10:04 AM] !!benquack!!: yup
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: I am a member of the LGBT community
[10:04 AM] !!benquack!!: yup (same)(edited)
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: I am a Christian, but I am not evangelical
[10:04 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[10:05 AM] rosalyn j: many of these things affect me on a personal level
[10:05 AM] Nakis [Work]: If I may interject: There is a difference between intimately knowing the struggles of a group and being biased.
[10:06 AM] Nakis [Work]: It's the level of awareness one has being in the community that can help highlight things that people outside the community don't appreciate or even see.
[10:07 AM] rosalyn j: If I actively participated in every struggle, read every news article, went to every protest, I'd be angry and sick all the time
[10:07 AM] !!benquack!!: THis is giving me a lot to think about
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[10:07 AM] rosalyn j: some people can do that and not be sick
[10:07 AM] !!benquack!!: and yeah, that one really makes sense
[10:08 AM] rosalyn j: I know that I can't
[10:08 AM] rosalyn j: and its a function of my privalege that I dont "have to"
[10:08 AM] rosalyn j: that I can make a choice
[10:09 AM] rosalyn j: some people may not be able too
[10:09 AM] rosalyn j: but I am convinced that I would be a poor servant if I were both angry and sick
[10:09 AM] !!benquack!!: Thank you rosalyn. this is really helping me think things through
[10:10 AM] rosalyn j: I do what I can in the spaces that I have in the ways that are most beneficial in my mind
[10:11 AM] !!benquack!!: okay. I think one thing I can really action from this is examining my motivations in conversations/activities.
[10:11 AM] rosalyn j:
[10:13 AM] !!benquack!!: So, like, if I wanted to talk about something to let someone know I had their back, or to try to offer someone support, all gucci, but if I'm doing it to try to make myself look good, or out of anger (when I know a conversation isn't going to do any good), then I should maybe think about that, and try to go about it a bit differently?
[10:14 AM] rosalyn j: see how that works for you
[10:14 AM] !!benquack!!: yeah, cool!
[10:16 AM] !!benquack!!: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: all the thanks! may the Force be with you! and I hope you have an awesome day/night!!!
[10:16 AM] rosalyn j: you as well
[10:16 AM] rosalyn j: MTFBWY
[10:16 AM] rosalyn j: see you tomorrow?
[10:16 AM] !!benquack!!: ... I might have work, but I'll try to be on here! :smiley:
[10:17 AM] rosalyn j: awesome
[10:17 AM] rosalyn j: I'll see what we can do about a log
[10:17 AM] rosalyn j: as I see only a few messages made it through
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[10:18 AM] Nakis [Work]: Let me try to post?