Weekday Doctrine Meditations 13:00 utc(Ajax)

August 6, 2018
[9:04 AM] Twigga: Here
[9:07 AM] rosalyn j: Hmm
[9:08 AM] rosalyn j: Voice?
[9:08 AM] Twigga: Ah, no capacity for me...
[9:09 AM] rosalyn j: Aww
[9:09 AM] Twigga: Sorry. Train!
[9:09 AM] rosalyn j: Gotcha
[9:09 AM] !!benquack!!: I might be able to do voice... but I'm a new human. so I'm not sure if that's awkward or not! :smiley: I might just listen in this time around, if that's cool.
[9:10 AM] Twigga: Not at all awkward.
[9:10 AM] rosalyn j: Its a kinda new thingy
[9:10 AM] !!benquack!!: Oh. Cool cool!
[9:11 AM] Twigga: We've never tried Discord before. I let Thomas know - he was in AJAX
[9:11 AM] rosalyn j: yay spur of the moment!!!
[9:11 AM] rosalyn j: so Twigga, do you know where we are?
[9:12 AM] Twigga: I know I'm currently writing in the maxims...
[9:12 AM] Twigga: I think here, together we'd done some...
[9:13 AM] rosalyn j: by the way @!!benquack!! what I call meditations is actually an opportunity to look at the Doctrine in depth
[9:13 AM] Twigga: But I'm now just done with discretion...
[9:13 AM] rosalyn j: ok we can go there
[9:13 AM] !!benquack!!: Cool!
[9:14 AM] rosalyn j: let me pull up the doctrine and get the explination
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[9:15 AM] rosalyn j: Discretion: To become invisible.

A Jedi knows there is a time and place for all things. They do not actively interfere in worldly affairs and refrain from overtly supporting or opposing other individuals or organizations
[9:16 AM] !!benquack!!: Ooooh interesting
[9:17 AM] Twigga: In my blurb, I got a bit political. I didn't like the idea of "invisible", because, well, I suppose I connected it with " irresponsible.
[9:18 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah, in my personal philosophy, I kinda disagree with that. But I might be misunderstanding idk,
[9:18 AM] rosalyn j: well consider Tao te Ching 17
[9:18 AM] Twigga: Which is?
[9:19 AM] Twigga: (That's totally NOT in IP!)
[9:19 AM] rosalyn j: well, which is?
[9:19 AM] Twigga: I only heardnof the tao for the first time here, I don't have a copy...
[9:19 AM] !!benquack!!: I'm not entirely sure what it is either, actually
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[9:20 AM] !!benquack!!: Imma google
[9:20 AM] Twigga: Sir Thomas! big hug
[9:20 AM] thomaswfaulkner: I'm a really big fan of that verse.
[9:20 AM] Twigga: Congratulations!
[9:20 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Hello hello hello! And a big thank you, too
[9:21 AM] !!benquack!!: I might me wrong, but is it this one?...
[9:21 AM] Twigga: settles down to listen
[9:21 AM] !!benquack!!: The supreme rulers are hardly known by their subjects.

The lesser are loved and praised.

The even lesser are feared.

The least are despised.


Those who show no trust will not be trusted.

Those who are quiet value the words.

When their task is completed, people will say:

We did it ourselves.
[9:21 AM] !!benquack!!: Also hello other human!
[9:21 AM] Twigga: That's... A bit rough.
[9:22 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Ah, yes! That's it.

Steve Mitchell says it a bit better
[9:22 AM] thomaswfaulkner: When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"
[9:22 AM] rosalyn j: yes
[9:22 AM] !!benquack!!: oooh that makes more sense to me
[9:22 AM] rosalyn j: a lot of people want to be visible
[9:23 AM] rosalyn j: visibly leading, visibly, guidng, visibly jedi-ing
[9:23 AM] Twigga: I agree, this is a better translation.
[9:23 AM] rosalyn j: A Jedi's work is subtle work
[9:23 AM] Twigga: Oh! THAT kind of visible!
[9:23 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay
[9:23 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay, I'm vibing with that a lot more
[9:24 AM] Twigga: Same here!
[9:24 AM] rosalyn j: if we go to a protest, is it to be SEEN as a protestor?
[9:24 AM] !!benquack!!: Aaaah, okay
[9:24 AM] Twigga: Mostly but that's a good thing.
[9:24 AM] Twigga: In my book.
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: if we post on facebook, is it to be seen as vehemently against/for something?
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: and
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: and
[9:25 AM] Twigga: Some things require a push back, because they are wrong
[9:25 AM] rosalyn j: is that all we are doing
[9:26 AM] !!benquack!!: I think Rosalyn is saying is it so that you can say "hah, i protested, im a protestor, im cool," or would it be to support a cause without bringing ego along
[9:27 AM] rosalyn j: I imagine that for every speech Martin Luther King gave to a crowd of thousands he wrote a letter to even more
[9:27 AM] Twigga: Thomas let me know recently about something happening in the news via facebook that slipped my radar. If he weren't helping these issues be seen, I can't do anything to put them right. His visibility to me is vital.
[9:27 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah.
[9:28 AM] !!benquack!!: Idk. poke me if im wrong, but I think it's about the motivation behind that visibility?
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[9:28 AM] rosalyn j: right
[9:28 AM] rosalyn j: at least in my opinion
[9:28 AM] !!benquack!!: like, are you being visible for the sake of being visible? or trying to help without making a name for yourself?
[9:29 AM] Twigga: Imagine if MLK ONLY wrote letters! We would have missed LOADS!
[9:29 AM] rosalyn j: true
[9:29 AM] rosalyn j: but the visibility I think came from tones and tones of invisible deeds
[9:29 AM] Twigga: I really didn't even think of the idea of doing visibility for self promotion reasons.
[9:30 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: you dont get a crowd of millions listening to you until youve listened to one
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: and then another
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: and another
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: that creates a fire
[9:30 AM] rosalyn j: they werent there for Martin, but for his dream
[9:31 AM] rosalyn j: because his dream was theirs
[9:31 AM] Twigga: Hmm... Maybe.
[9:31 AM] !!benquack!!: Idk though. I reckon sometimes when I'm trying to help a cause, a little egotistical part of me wants to be seen as the good guy. But instead, more meaninful change can come from putting ego aside and lifting others to the forefront?
[9:33 AM] !!benquack!!: Or even... idk... the whole "doing" as much as "saying" bit. Cuz, I can yell about injustices in palestine (for example) as much as I want, and be as loud as I want, but I could actually be helping out in a soup kitchen? Without egotistical reward?
[9:33 AM] !!benquack!!: (If ive totally derailed the topic, please poke me)
[9:34 AM] Twigga: ... I can tell you, shouting about Palestine isn't rewarding :joy:
[9:35 AM] !!benquack!!: ... I mean, you're not wrong. But at the same time, I guess there's a part of me that wants to be seen by others to be doing good and to be saying the right, morally correct things? and I think that part should be challenged/examined.
[9:35 AM] Twigga: I think you're on the right track, but at risk of tying yourself in knots of guilt. This is why I settled on being "good enough".
[9:35 AM] !!benquack!!: Yea
[9:35 AM] !!benquack!!: Yeah, that;s a really good pint
[9:36 AM] !!benquack!!: *point
[9:37 AM] Twigga: And Jediism has this wonderfully vague moral relativity about it, which means chasing that "being seen to do the morally right thing" game goes poof
[9:37 AM] !!benquack!!: Huh... Interesting
[9:37 AM] rosalyn j: its so true
[9:37 AM] Twigga: I've not fully got my head about that bit yet though
[9:37 AM] rosalyn j: in those moments I remember 1 Cor 13
[9:37 AM] !!benquack!!: It is that whole, 'what is more important, intention or action' thing a little, I guess?
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[9:37 AM] rosalyn j: or even just the Creed
[9:38 AM] rosalyn j: we are meant to be instruments of peace
[9:38 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:38 AM] Twigga: I copy you Ros re: creed. But Ben, I think not.
[9:38 AM] rosalyn j: but how we go about it, that'll be individual
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: we each have our own compass
[9:39 AM] !!benquack!!: (this is a really cool convo, wow.)
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: as we fine tune it, it can direct us better
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: where
[9:39 AM] rosalyn j: is love needed
[9:40 AM] Twigga: Ros is a cool human. She does this every weekday y'know
[9:40 AM] rosalyn j: where is pardon
[9:40 AM] !!benquack!!: Dang... I gotta be here. THis is where it's at
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[9:40 AM] rosalyn j: where is faith, hope, joy, light
[9:40 AM] rosalyn j: and it'll change as we do
9:40 AM] rosalyn j: thats why we can't afford to be rigid
[9:41 AM] Twigga: Ugh. Change. (Rabbit! Do not chase!)
[9:41 AM] rosalyn j: because the Force NEEDS to flow through us
[9:41 AM] rosalyn j: we ought not put barriers in the way
[9:41 AM] !!benquack!!: What kind of barriers? in relation to this particular theme?
[9:42 AM] rosalyn j: when we are convinced something is right/wrong good/bad
[9:42 AM] rosalyn j: in some spaces that can be good
[9:42 AM] Nakis [Work]: (Also a form of attachment, that is, aye?)
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[9:43 AM] rosalyn j: like for example, looking at the whole world and the sort of state its in
[9:43 AM] rosalyn j: BUT
[9:43 AM] rosalyn j: bring that down to the individual level
[9:44 AM] rosalyn j: and if you let that dichotomus thinking define the sort of views you will take into consideration in, say, your circle of influence, thats a bit of a spicy meatball
[9:44 AM] Twigga: :thinking:
[9:45 AM] !!benquack!!: (sorry, what do you mean by dichotomus thinking)
[9:45 AM] rosalyn j: its why some of us can no longer talk about politics at the dinner table
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[9:46 AM] rosalyn j: or why we can't have genuine conversations around topics that are potentially activating
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[9:46 AM] Twigga: ... Why is it we can't have genuine conversations?
[9:46 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay. So, from what I'm understanding, there is something negative to be found in some of ......... wait what twigga said(edited)
[9:47 AM] rosalyn j: because some of us have already chosen sides in the "debate"
[9:47 AM] rosalyn j: and we have our "facts"
[9:47 AM] rosalyn j: and we are ready to win
[9:47 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Up is "better" than down rather than each are parts that define the other
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[9:48 AM] !!benquack!!: yes. but. in some circumstances, around devisive political topics, I genuinely believe my "facts" are correct
[9:49 AM] rosalyn j: so does your friend there
[9:49 AM] !!benquack!!: but. Like. human rights? Doesn't having discussions help? Like, improve people's empathy or something?
[9:50 AM] Twigga: You need to be able to give a bit to get buy-in from the other side...
[9:50 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Discussion is so power
[9:50 AM] thomaswfaulkner: We are choose to listen to each sides
[9:50 AM] Twigga: ... Unless the other side is just... Sick...
[9:50 AM] Twigga: I dunno what to do then.
[9:50 AM] !!benquack!!: But some sides are just wrong though! Like,
[9:50 AM] thomaswfaulkner: Yes, there are those lines too.
[9:51 AM] !!benquack!!: ugh. Im confused
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: I agree
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: so
[9:51 AM] !!benquack!!: (in a good way, i think)
[9:51 AM] Twigga: Thomas was agreeing with you, I think Ben
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: instead of coming with your arsenal ready to bring them to their knees
[9:51 AM] rosalyn j: think about the creed
[9:51 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:52 AM] rosalyn j: is there a way that I can bring this forward using love, pardon, faith....
[9:52 AM] !!benquack!!: yeah
[9:53 AM] rosalyn j: because if we have someone rooted in their position, there is no way, despite your facts that they can be unrooted
[9:53 AM] rosalyn j: they have to pull themselves out
[9:53 AM] !!benquack!!: okay, so you're saying to examine how you have these conversations. you're not saying not to have these conversations with people
[9:53 AM] Twigga: Hitting a line can mean harm reduction, rather than simple discussion.
[9:53 AM] rosalyn j: hence the "we did it ourselves"
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[9:54 AM] rosalyn j: yes, harm reduction is sometimes all we can do
[9:54 AM] rosalyn j: just get out of the way
[9:54 AM] !!benquack!!: This is interesting
[9:54 AM] rosalyn j: yes, please have the conversations
[9:55 AM] rosalyn j: examine, where is your ego, what are your motives
[9:55 AM] !!benquack!!: i dunno. I do get angry about things sometimes. But I know that's pretty much the antithisis to the code, and to progress.
[9:55 AM] !!benquack!!: THank you
[9:55 AM] !!benquack!!: this is really useful and important stuff
[9:55 AM] rosalyn j: we can be angry, but we are Jedi
[9:55 AM] rosalyn j: our emotions cannot take the reigns here
[9:56 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:56 AM] Twigga: Anger can show us where we're seeing an injustice - it's ok to be angry.
[9:56 AM] rosalyn j: yes
[9:56 AM] Twigga: Or, feelnit, anyway
[9:56 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[9:56 AM] Twigga: Better to feel it than bury it.
[9:57 AM] !!benquack!!: definately
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: for example, I value the Social Security program we have here in the states
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: there are some who consider our most vulnerable unworthy
[9:57 AM] !!benquack!!: yup
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: instead of trying to convince them otherwise
[9:57 AM] rosalyn j: I took a job to actively help people get it
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[9:58 AM] rosalyn j: and when it comes under attack, I write to my senators and other representatives
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[9:58 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay
[9:58 AM] !!benquack!!: Okay, that's making sense to me now
[9:58 AM] Twigga: (Train change!)
[9:59 AM] rosalyn j: im either thinking of alternatives or having them bring the discussion to the table in a way that helps our most vulnerable
[9:59 AM] !!benquack!!: So, that one saying "the strenght to change what I can, the (something) to accept what I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference?"
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: there is that
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: but I like to think about it this way
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: if I can help in some active way, bring about the change I want to see
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: I will do it
[10:00 AM] rosalyn j: I will speak to those willing to listen
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: ah
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: those willing to listen
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: okay(edited)
[10:01 AM] rosalyn j: and work for the changes I think are in the best interest of those who I serve
[10:01 AM] !!benquack!!: yeah
[10:01 AM] rosalyn j: but I have to constantly evaluate
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[10:02 AM] rosalyn j: and if I get off track I need to know it
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[10:03 AM] !!benquack!!: is one always separate from the group they are trying to serve? because I find it is more difficult to stay objective in political conversation when the impacts of people's opinions, on a larger scale, directly affect my (and my friends') quality of life
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: No, one is not always seperate
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: I was a part of the benefits program
[10:04 AM] !!benquack!!: yup
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: I am a member of the LGBT community
[10:04 AM] !!benquack!!: yup (same)(edited)
[10:04 AM] rosalyn j: I am a Christian, but I am not evangelical
[10:04 AM] !!benquack!!: okay
[10:05 AM] rosalyn j: many of these things affect me on a personal level
[10:05 AM] Nakis [Work]: If I may interject: There is a difference between intimately knowing the struggles of a group and being biased.
[10:06 AM] Nakis [Work]: It's the level of awareness one has being in the community that can help highlight things that people outside the community don't appreciate or even see.
[10:07 AM] rosalyn j: If I actively participated in every struggle, read every news article, went to every protest, I'd be angry and sick all the time
[10:07 AM] !!benquack!!: THis is giving me a lot to think about
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[10:07 AM] rosalyn j: some people can do that and not be sick
[10:07 AM] !!benquack!!: and yeah, that one really makes sense
[10:08 AM] rosalyn j: I know that I can't
[10:08 AM] rosalyn j: and its a function of my privalege that I dont "have to"
[10:08 AM] rosalyn j: that I can make a choice
[10:09 AM] rosalyn j: some people may not be able too
[10:09 AM] rosalyn j: but I am convinced that I would be a poor servant if I were both angry and sick
[10:09 AM] !!benquack!!: Thank you rosalyn. this is really helping me think things through
[10:10 AM] rosalyn j: I do what I can in the spaces that I have in the ways that are most beneficial in my mind
[10:11 AM] !!benquack!!: okay. I think one thing I can really action from this is examining my motivations in conversations/activities.
[10:11 AM] rosalyn j:
[10:13 AM] !!benquack!!: So, like, if I wanted to talk about something to let someone know I had their back, or to try to offer someone support, all gucci, but if I'm doing it to try to make myself look good, or out of anger (when I know a conversation isn't going to do any good), then I should maybe think about that, and try to go about it a bit differently?
[10:14 AM] rosalyn j: see how that works for you
[10:14 AM] !!benquack!!: yeah, cool!
[10:16 AM] !!benquack!!: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: all the thanks! may the Force be with you! and I hope you have an awesome day/night!!!
[10:16 AM] rosalyn j: you as well
[10:16 AM] rosalyn j: MTFBWY
[10:16 AM] rosalyn j: see you tomorrow?
[10:16 AM] !!benquack!!: ... I might have work, but I'll try to be on here! :smiley:
[10:17 AM] rosalyn j: awesome
[10:17 AM] rosalyn j: I'll see what we can do about a log
[10:17 AM] rosalyn j: as I see only a few messages made it through
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[10:18 AM] Nakis [Work]: Let me try to post?