Joseph Campbell is awful
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5 years 7 months ago #320274
by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
To read, to listen, to learn, to discover or realize things from a source of information, is it really ever about simply agreeing or disagreeing with it? I think if I blindly agreed with Campbell or Watts just the same as if I were out to simply debunk things with what I believed I know better about, I would have been wasting my own time. To "learn how to learn", as paradoxical as it may sound, I feel is an important ability to develop. Knowing how to interact with any source beyond one's agreements and disagreements, I've always felt is imperative when it concerns philosophy. 
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5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #320281
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Kyrin- thanks for your time replying. I'm going to try to explore the Heroine idea you brought up and the Anti Hero story, (I don't know much about the Homeric hero story) but for later- what other myth paradigms are there please? I'm just playing with the ideas here.
1) When you say "he [Campbell] considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero", isn't Campbell simply describing how the myths they themselves present the female role (which represents their culture and values)?
2) I think there's a clarification to be made between the Heroine and the female role and this distinction is made by Campbell when he gives examples in his book, (Hero with a Thousand Faces) where Campbell does refer to (for-want-of-a-better-word) "feministic" myths (he doesn't call them that though) where the heroine as the main character in the myth goes on a similar adventure like any male hero from another myth. You gave some examples of women in myth earlier- which one do you think best rejects Campbell's mono-myth ideal?
3) I think even though the word Hero is usually seen in a masculine sense, it does not mean it is only for men (although that might be how it is portrayed by some cultures)- it is more overarching and is beyond masculinity or femininity so yes, in a way you're right than females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with Campbell's version of "Hero" but in another universe this would be the same with different words, that men cannot have their own story without being intertwined with a version of the "Heroine". Did Campbell ever say the "Hero" was ever just a man? I believe he said or at least implied that every one of us, men and woman are the Hero archetype.
The Anti-hero Story. Do you know of any Anti-Hero story from long ago? Maybe the one about Loki being a trickster god could count... but he is usually a side character or an obstacle to overcome rather than the main character/hero/anti-hero in the old myths. I think one of Campbell's premises was that myths have lasted so long because they seemed important to people throughout time. I wonder whether the Punisher or Deadpool will be remembered and revered like the myths of old. In a way, I think Anti-hero stories are more entertaining to us of today than meaningful. Possibly the same can be same for Hero stories of today like Spiderman, Superman and Batman. Maybe the fact that most anti-hero stories exist today show how our current culture feels that the lines between good and wrong are blurry and unclear as opposed to in the past (when religion played a major part in morality.). Stories of the anti-hero were inappropriate and deemed immoral by authorities and were likely destroyed. I wonder...
I've been trying to find some links disproving Campbell. I thought the wikipedia entry with criticism was interesting. There was some support to the idea that the Heroine's journey is different somehow to the male version supported by two books, The Heroine's Journey (1990) by Maureen Murdock and From Girl to Goddess: The Heroine's Journey through Myth and Legend (2010), by Valerie Estelle Frankel. Have you read either one of them Kyrin?
In any case, during this entire conversation and some research, I think I learning that I'm probably wrong to think that Campbell's model fits every story. That just fits another model I have about confirmation bias and that no one model accurately describes any one thing. There's usually a forgotten context or environmental factors that we just aren't aware of. What you know is less likely to take you by surprise than what you don't know. Additionally, there is sometimes a problem that we don't know that we don't know. We just fool ourselves into thinking we do... Still, Campbell's model is a good model for describing quite a few stories and connecting them together, if that's what you want to do. It also has helped me think about my own life in perhaps a more constructive way than before... Anyone feel they have another preferred model to seeing their own life than Campbells?
Below: Chapter of Criticism of the Monomyth from wikipedia posted in spoiler
Replied by on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Vusuki wrote: So can you give some clear examples where a myth or story doesn't fit Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey? I'm very interested in testing if it is possible to use the theory on any myth or whether I have to accord only a specific fragment of the model to the myth you give...
I don't believe all myths tell part of a whole story. There are many myth paradigms and Campbell's is only one form. He does conveniently ignore anything that does not fit his narrative. The Heroine for example. He considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero. According to Campbell there is no such thing as Heroine and females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with his version of "Hero". There are several other versions as well, including the anti hero story and the Homeric hero story, none of which follow the cycle that Campbell describes.
Kyrin- thanks for your time replying. I'm going to try to explore the Heroine idea you brought up and the Anti Hero story, (I don't know much about the Homeric hero story) but for later- what other myth paradigms are there please?
I'm just playing with the ideas here.1) When you say "he [Campbell] considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero", isn't Campbell simply describing how the myths they themselves present the female role (which represents their culture and values)?
2) I think there's a clarification to be made between the Heroine and the female role and this distinction is made by Campbell when he gives examples in his book, (Hero with a Thousand Faces) where Campbell does refer to (for-want-of-a-better-word) "feministic" myths (he doesn't call them that though) where the heroine as the main character in the myth goes on a similar adventure like any male hero from another myth. You gave some examples of women in myth earlier- which one do you think best rejects Campbell's mono-myth ideal?
3) I think even though the word Hero is usually seen in a masculine sense, it does not mean it is only for men (although that might be how it is portrayed by some cultures)- it is more overarching and is beyond masculinity or femininity so yes, in a way you're right than females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with Campbell's version of "Hero" but in another universe this would be the same with different words, that men cannot have their own story without being intertwined with a version of the "Heroine". Did Campbell ever say the "Hero" was ever just a man? I believe he said or at least implied that every one of us, men and woman are the Hero archetype.
The Anti-hero Story. Do you know of any Anti-Hero story from long ago? Maybe the one about Loki being a trickster god could count... but he is usually a side character or an obstacle to overcome rather than the main character/hero/anti-hero in the old myths. I think one of Campbell's premises was that myths have lasted so long because they seemed important to people throughout time. I wonder whether the Punisher or Deadpool will be remembered and revered like the myths of old. In a way, I think Anti-hero stories are more entertaining to us of today than meaningful. Possibly the same can be same for Hero stories of today like Spiderman, Superman and Batman. Maybe the fact that most anti-hero stories exist today show how our current culture feels that the lines between good and wrong are blurry and unclear as opposed to in the past (when religion played a major part in morality.). Stories of the anti-hero were inappropriate and deemed immoral by authorities and were likely destroyed. I wonder...
I've been trying to find some links disproving Campbell. I thought the wikipedia entry with criticism was interesting. There was some support to the idea that the Heroine's journey is different somehow to the male version supported by two books, The Heroine's Journey (1990) by Maureen Murdock and From Girl to Goddess: The Heroine's Journey through Myth and Legend (2010), by Valerie Estelle Frankel. Have you read either one of them Kyrin?
In any case, during this entire conversation and some research, I think I learning that I'm probably wrong to think that Campbell's model fits every story. That just fits another model I have about confirmation bias and that no one model accurately describes any one thing. There's usually a forgotten context or environmental factors that we just aren't aware of. What you know is less likely to take you by surprise than what you don't know. Additionally, there is sometimes a problem that we don't know that we don't know. We just fool ourselves into thinking we do... Still, Campbell's model is a good model for describing quite a few stories and connecting them together, if that's what you want to do. It also has helped me think about my own life in perhaps a more constructive way than before... Anyone feel they have another preferred model to seeing their own life than Campbells?
Below: Chapter of Criticism of the Monomyth from wikipedia posted in spoiler
Warning: Spoiler!
Last edit: 5 years 7 months ago by .
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