What is it like to feel gender?

Yes? I'm not sure how it could not be, at least in part. As I mentioned in a earlier post on this thread, sometimes cultures have opposing ideas of masculinity.

If you're asking if I understand the masculinity of another through the parts that appeal to me, no. Your presentation of your gender and your relation to it are something I can understand best by understanding who you are as a whole. What you choose to show me and how are up to you, and I do my best to understand it as it was meant. Like conversation itself.

Many people have likened gender to a conversation. Many also liken it to a performance, with the world as the audience. And yet it is also a deep internal sense. So gender is simulteneously felt and expressed.

Is it accurate for one to say that trends can be witnessed concerning gender, but specifics must have the freedom to define themselves? Meaning, one should not judge a persons gender based only on societal norms compared to their outward appearance and instead, allow that information to be vacant until defined by the individual?

Would it be reasonable to assume unless otherwise notified based on outward appearance?

If one's goal is to be as kind and open as possible to the individuals you meet on a daily basis, it is wise to retrain oneself to avoid gendered identifiers in conversation until you know someone and have had a chance to ask their pronouns.

That said, it is also not an expectation at this time. Even gender nonconforming individuals in our culture have to learn how others experience gender. You see how easily this conversation of self-discovery branched out in a group that previously assumed everyone to be cisgender men and women. (Cisgender folks are those whose gender identity assigned gender at birth are one and the same.) So too, most people who have just discovered that they are not cisgender have little former knowledge of other people's relationship to gender or how to navigate the pronoun issue with a stranger. So if you are trying to be inclusive and understanding, most gender nonconforming people will pick up on the effort you are making, and they will try to be gentle in their corrections in return.

The above feels slightly clumsy, so a personal example. I work with the public, in huge crowd sizes. I used to often say, "ladies and gentlemen." To include other genders, I can make an extra effort. Saying, "ladies, gentlemen, and everyone else," I will immediately cause strife with those who dislike the idea of any more than the two genders they are accustomed to. If I say, "welcome everyone" "hello folks" or may I have your attention please," I evade notice of those who are disinclined to be open to the idea, but create a space that feels welcoming and inviting to all genders. The consistency with which I manage it shows how strongly I am dedicated to understanding and accepting my LGBT friends. The more I practice it, the more natural it becomes, and the fewer mistakes I make.

The same is true of my personal interactions with strangers in these crowds. When I describe someone, I tend to take a more clothing-based approach. After all, it's one of the identifiers an individual has usually chosen for themselves. I listen for how people describe themselves and others in their group. And I try to keep myself using gender neutral terms when I can. I do still make mistakes, after all I've got a few decades of programming to deal with, like the rest of us here. But the effort is always noticed by the people who really need it, and I have had many people open up to me as the first person they felt comfortable trusting if I was able to use only gender neutral terms consistently while speaking to them.

Dumb semi-tangential question, but how is folx different from folks?
I get that it's apparently more lgbt... friendly, but how?

If anything using folx instead of folks is more of a personal choice and identifier. Like how Jewish folks might write G-d instead of god, but they don't expect others to do it. Anyone that sees it from within the culture knows instantly the cultural associations and that the writer is connected to a specific community. It is never expected of an ally. So it's less of a "I'm LGBT friendly" flag and more of a "I'm queer, and I am comfortable with you knowing that" flag.

Edit: Keep in mind, queer people have historically needed to find each other under the noses of those who would hurt them. So recognizing a cultural identifier that is used in the community is not an indication that it is wise to out someone to everyone else. You never know when you might discover someone else has transphobic attitudes, so until you know for certain that a person is comfortable being outed, any conversation one has had with another should be considered private for safety's sake.

rugadd wrote: Neat ideas, but basically, you don't know either?

What else do we have to discuss beyond personal experiences? And how does one tell where the line is drawn between ideas and personal experiences to assert worth to the idea. Better to challenge the idea if you can than appeal to the likelihood of false authority IMO.

So you would rather we each discuss only our own personal experience, rather than the variety of personal experiences that exist? What would that achieve other than the drowning out of minority experiences?

If we were to speak of what it is like to know which is your dominant hand, and the entire thread was full of people sharing what it is like to be right handed, should not someone share what their left-handed and ambidextrous friends have told them about what it feels like to have those experiences? It wasn't too long ago, right handedness was considered natural and correct, but in a conversation about dominant hands we still have a duty to include the minorities. If I am the only person speaking up for the minorities in a conversation on gender, consider that there may be others here who fear rejection too much to speak for themselves. It's a statistical improbability for them not to be here and notice the acceptance or lack thereof on this thread.

You speak of false authority, yet you wish to challenge ideas while you offer no knowledge of the experiences of others outside the experience of yourself and speculation with your experience as that basis. If you think you have never met a trans person, consider how statistically unlikely that is and the possible reasons that they may have had for not opening up to you about such things.

For this week I have been looking for inexpensive (free) means to educate myself on aspects of gender. I have found some for those of us (in a general sense) who ask "well if you don't tell us, how will we learn?"

As I said, these are free:
Gender and Sexuality: Applications in Society: https://www.classcentral.com/course/edx-gender-and-sexuality-applications-in-society-12333
Gender and Intersectionality: https://www.classcentral.com/course/edx-gender-and-intersectionality-19311
Doing Gender and Why it Matters: https://www.classcentral.com/course/edx-doing-gender-and-why-it-matters-13325
Gender Equality and Sexual Diversity: https://www.classcentral.com/course/udemy-gender-equality-and-sexual-diversity-7323

I have not taken any of these courses but I plan to. Knowing that, I don't know if they are any good. I'm just exploring I encourage all who want to, to join me on this adventure.

Further, if you have studied gender and you want to, if you want to drop some resources here for continued education, please do

I'd like to add this website as a good place to find resources:

Stonewall https://www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/stonewall-research

Eqin Ilis wrote: So you would rather we each discuss only our own personal experience, rather than the variety of personal experiences that exist? What would that achieve other than the drowning out of minority experiences?

I'm not sure I ever said that, or even implied it. Where did you get that idea from? Consider the post above is in reply to quoted text. My posts are usually to a topic rather than everyone who might read my post, unless I have a quote in which case that particular reply is to the poster quoted.

Eqin Ilis wrote: You speak of false authority, yet you wish to challenge ideas while you offer no knowledge of the experiences of others outside the experience of yourself and speculation with your experience as that basis. If you think you have never met a trans person, consider how statistically unlikely that is and the possible reasons that they may have had for not opening up to you about such things.

It probably shouldn't matter that I spoke of something, and more of what I said about it. My reference to false authority was not aimed at anyone, but rather the defense that it might be aimed at me.

I believe answering your question directly is only more likely to get us off-topic. If your intent is truly to understand, I recommend: https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/summer-2016/being-there-for-nonbinary-youth

The important thing to understand at this moment, is that I am doing my best to let LGBT individuals who may be reading this that they have someone who will support them. I apologize that this must be public, but as the link above makes clear,

Once educators recognize their own behaviors and microaggressions, they’re better equipped to identify microaggressions, bullying and harassment when they happen in schools. Even if it appears minor, these behaviors need to be interrupted in the moment. Too often transgender students expect no assistance from teachers; being ostracized becomes the norm. As one trans middle school student—who is now homeschooled—attests, “As long as it doesn’t escalate to a screaming match, they think everything looks fine.”

Unfortunately, the thread so far has already gone in a direction that can easily send a strong message to trans individuals that this group is not yet prepared to understand and accept them as they are. The fact of the matter is that an individual that must first defend their experiences and allow an entire group to scrutinize them is not going to feel supported. And while I understand that this may come across as an attack toward you, for which I apologize. I can only hope that your previous experiences with this group, the overall feeling of support over the years you have been here, and the tone of this message can help alleviate that somewhat. If you are able to look into these resources and form some understanding of how your words have contributed to this no longer being a safe space for trans individuals, you may also come to an understanding of why I felt this a necessary course of action.

I also found some more resources for anyone who is interested to help with this matter:
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/supporting-the-transgender-people-in-your-life-a-guide-to-being-a-good-ally
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/education/lifeguard-workshop/#sm.01td31rn1418ezo10ww1kmrb5tuud
https://www.genderspectrum.org

Eqin Ilis wrote: I believe answering your question directly is only more likely to get us off-topic. If your intent is truly to understand, I recommend: https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/summer-2016/being-there-for-nonbinary-youth

Nothing there I don't already know. I'm not sure how more off-topic we could get now as it seems to have become about what this forum area is for? Which I don't mind, its a new forum area and these things sometimes have to get worked out by trial and error.

So, to me at least, it seems this forum is already starting to ask itself what it is meant to be. That might be my mistake, but I'm not ignorant of this particular topic... perhaps some have misinterpret what I've wrote (its easy to do, even I don't understand some things I write after a while). I do note though that this topic didn't start in this forum area.

So while I note it was not originally posted in this area, I'm not sure if this forum space is meant to be a support group? I interpreted the Intersectional to be a more protected discussion. My understanding is that 'support groups' avoid upsetting people by not challenging their experiences. In contrast 'protected discussions' provide protections from people being abused for sharing their experiences. And well I'm sharing mine?

If that sort of protected but personal discussion upsets other people on a topic then perhaps this area could more usefully be a support group (or labelled and defined to work as such).

But of course if something is triggering anyone or potentially others on this topic in what I've said just point it out!? Feel free to be specific. If you don't want to know a persons deeper thoughts or reasons for something then I'd argue it should not bother you as much that they have it, else just ask ie as its a discussion forum.

But I'm far from ignorant of the topic, its just I don't define myself so much by my past or how I want others to see me, so my language is not about self identity - so my thoughts are on better defining working paradigms for deepening ones healthy experience of the particular topic. That often means adjusting language in small ways to constructively conserve the topic while adding more function and capability. As the topic poised a question which seemed to offer an exploration of the depth of the topic. I'm generally not at the Temple to 'talk about my problems' using conventional language as that is more a support group function - I'm not sure anything I've said is particularly harmful for anyone.

I mean, looking at this thread... I've used and agree with the differences in gender and sex,I've applied the lens of 'feeling' of ones gender as asked by the OP in the context of personal experience to define functional concepts of masculinity and femininity and how they function to better orientate one to feel gender, and I've even defended gender from old fashioned stereotypes!

It's really important that a minority avoids attacking itself and its allies when their members stray from the narrative. It happens a lot, it happened with feminism, it happens with race, it happens nationalism (what politics is) and all groups probably suffer it in various ways. I try not to buy into that myself, but a way to avoid it is to perhaps make this forum area more specific to a support group function? Otherwise it might run into this problem from time to time......

.... as in a support group, people would ask a question as a platform for people who want to talk about their experience of the topic in terms of as it happened, rather than why. While I've always considered discussions to be a platform for analysis, critical thinking, creative thinking etc, with the difference between intersectional, temple, and outer rim just being the measures of protections from excessive criticality or abuse.

You say you were already educated on this topic. Yet, from your very first message on this thread, you resorted to speaking about how you view biological sex rather than gender. Can I then understand that you purposely redirected things in that way? I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attempted to relate to you as a person who might not know the harm they cause. Now you say you understand how these issues are viewed and think you should be free from the burden of using inclusive language unless this is a support group.

No one should be forced to run off into a support group to escape someone who is attempting to make this as uncomfortable as possible while staying within defined guidelines. Such behavior is a clear attempt at intimidation.

Hiya,

I just wanted to pop in here and say:

This space is not a space for debate (that's outer rim)

This is supposed to be a supportive space (but not a support group as we are not licensed for such).

This topic is not as cut and dry as whether or not concrete is grey. This is a matter of identity. Whether or not this features as most important for you is of no import. This topic (as we have seen) brings up strong feelings. That's why it was moved to intersectional. Our views on gender and how it feels do not just affect us.
Certain views on gender have marginalized groups of people and prevented basic civil rights and human rights from being granted. It's a loaded topic with a lot of history, a lot of misinterpretation and a lot of misinformation.

So, when a member of a marginalized group, or an ally of such, speaks, when someone opens up, when resources are given, when stories are told, its on us to hear them.

Remember what our doctrine says:

In the creed it says "I will never seek so much to be consoled as to console. To be understood as to understand. To be loved as to love.

Eqin Ilis wrote: You say you were already educated on this topic. Yet, from your very first message on this thread, you resorted to speaking about how you view biological sex rather than gender. Can I then understand that you purposely redirected things in that way? I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attempted to relate to you as a person who might not know the harm they cause. Now you say you understand how these issues are viewed and think you should be free from the burden of using inclusive language unless this is a support group.

No one should be forced to run off into a support group to escape someone who is attempting to make this as uncomfortable as possible while staying within defined guidelines. Such behavior is a clear attempt at intimidation.

Well we all are born with an encoded sexual differentiation within our DNA... that is what I mean by biological sex is, as by definition it is distinct from gender. I've never suggested they are the same thing, so I'm not confusing sex and gender, but talking about the mechanisms which populate the overlap between the two.
So why am I talking about that on a topic of feeling gender.... just because they are related, or certainly seem to be, and have impacts on living as one, the other, both or a mixture.
It seems as its that which has upset you or made you concerned for the potential for others? If so I have to presume you think there is no connection between sex and gender at all, or that discussion of their relationships is taboo? The reason I ask because it seems clear that a lot of transgender (if not most) tend to align their gender with aspects of the non-birth genders sex, which is why SRS is considered a treatment for gender dysphoria where it includes body dysmorphia. But I'm not telling you your wrong, just trying to understand where your taking issue with my opinion about how we might be able to feel gender.

My frustration comes from the fact I've repeatedly outlined how diverse gender identity and experiences can be. Transgender is an umbrella that includes anything other than cisgender. I very clearly shared a few of the types that are not interested in transitioning along a binary view. Your insistence on returning to a binary view is very concerning to me, because the typical experience of a trans person in a conversation with someone that returns to binary views as if they are the default is an attempt at erasure or invalidation. Experiencing a binary reality for oneself and insisting that it is the only way you understand the entire topic are two very different things.

You are correct that I do not believe that there is much (if any) connection between sex and gender. The more I learn about the variety of gender experiences and the complexities of sex characteristics, the less I see evidence that they are related beyond social expectations. From a scientific standpoint, assuming the relation of sex and gender is just bad science, since even gravity must be proven beyond just seeing it everywhere. From a social standpoint, it is also hurtful. Talking about the two as intertwined assumes there is proof to support it and puts the burden on trans people to prove their experiences deserve to be recognized.

Growth is always painful, but can be very rewarding.

Which is to say, words have meaning much like a sign post, but what direction you need to go, regardless of the sign post, is entirely dependent on where you are. You can't tell someone to go left when, where they are, they need to go right and then get mad at them when they do for not arriving.

Which is to say I have myself in a double bind if I hinge my satisfaction on expecting someone else to understand the words I am using from the perspective that has built up in me. It can't be done and therefore I will never be satisfied with it. The closest I can get is a bit of self deception if they parrot me really well.