What is it like to feel gender?

Eqin: You suggest to know what it feels like to be a man, the most important thing is to get into a fight. Do you then see a pacifist as inherently woman? Is someone able to lose his manhood through an aversion to fighting?



I do NOT find women (that I know) to be pacifist. They are more likely to fight than I am. I'm trying to be careful not to speak for all women. I'm just talking about many of the ones in my circle. They are more likely to get emotional and therefore say something to escalate a situation. They simply fight in different ways. Men are sometimes slower to fight because the fighting we tend to do in our masculinity is physical. Therefore, we try to avoid it getting to that point. The fighting that (these) females tend towards (and if true for others we can accept it is true for others without indicting the masses) is PSYCHOLOGICAL.

These are, naturally, behavior patterns augmented by age, experience, religiosity, and maturity, and socialization within local community.

I've had to talk an ex out of fighting several times, even fighting a guy several times. And I wouldn't call her very feminine so we have to take into account that masculinity and femininity are not binary but rather a spectrum. I think she would even (as much as she referred to her proverbial male appendage) agree that she's more masculine than most females, but you definitely couldn't visually tell if she was out.

Most couples end up in fights where the male is almost dazed and confused, thinking how did he get here, what landmine did he step on, but pushed into a defensive position before he realizes what's even happening. And women are adept at this kind of fighting and... I would say... quite dangerous. If I could I would rather engage in a psychological fight with another man because I feel like there are unwritten rules there and pride that keeps us from violating those terms and limits. I'm more fearful of women in this regard because they can be absolutely brutal. There is no 'chivalry' to stop them from attacking your masculinity, your gender, your mother even. I was once told "that's why your dad's dead"... and it made me cry and I sat there wondering if I was arguing with a human being.

So what I would say is that feminine does NOT mean weak... not at all. It's more like a rose with thorns. You can admire the beauty and softness of women but don't underestimate their potential for emotional and psychological violence; especially the smaller they are in stature. Because these things develop as defense mechanisms and if they don't see a way to win with brute force doesn't mean they can't or wont fight.

Old school men... would rather use our fists as testosterone demands. But women will grab a blade. They'll cut you. And new school... everyone seems to grab a gun.

Now females in martial arts... that doesn't really mean anything. We all have testosterone and estrogen. Having a stronger mix of one over the other doesn't mean you don't like violent sports. Some of those women may have simply started as a way to protect themselves in a world where women tend to be more independent. The number of women who have been raped is a number that is extremely uncomfortable for me to think about.

Most women I've been with have been raped at least once. So they also know that a man is not always going to be around to protect them. That doesn't mean they don't want a man around, but it could also mean that they feel more comfortable and safe around other women. I've grown up with martial arts movies and the old school ones are my favorite. And typically there are both male and female fighters who simply use different styles. So fighting, to me, has always been something everyone does but it is the style... that changes. I think a females strength tends to be more in their lower body.

Chun Lee vs Ken

It feels to me that there may be two topics here.

The initial question was 'what is it like to feel gender', but a lot of the actual discussion seems to be about traditional gender roles and biological responses due to sex. When gender and sex are different, it doesn't make sense to me to discuss the biological response of the different sexes to fighting, for example.

@Edan I don't have access to Intersectional, but I still see the thread in the outer rim and can respond to it. Not sure if that was intentional or not. If this moves to intersectional and I can't access it from the outer rim forum, I'd need permissions for intersectional to participate, I think.

The thread in outer rim is a 'shadow' topic, it remains so participants can find it, but does not come up in recent posts and merely points to the new position of the thread. Your ability to view it in its new position is a quirk of the forum.

I think I am getting a little confused. I went back and read through everything and I am wondering: As far as "feeling" which gender you are, on what basis do you give it a name? What feeling can describe a woman or man that cannot describe the other?

We all feel as individuals a certain way, and it changes day by day or moment by moment, but I tend to consider that process at its root to be the embodied cognition inherent in being able to perceive, ie a baseline concept of self. It seems shaped by the complex of enduring physical and psychological factors, which themselves have iterations of themes which we consider thoughts and its those and social factors which go onto overlay and shape the feelings we have. Sometimes they can result in alignments with instincts to create resonances we call emotions. I think though there are other types of resonances than the ones we are familiar with, and that they speak to the architecture of how we're all generally built. In the domain of psychology they might be the things that the archetypes work with, but in the physical domain I think sexual differentiation probably points to their being distinct male and female modalities of being - as well evolved pathways of physical and psychological alignments. I think modern definitions of gender are social constructs built on many factors of which one is this sexual alignment.... perhaps equivalent in some roundabout way to traditions which talk about chakras or meridians and concepts of balance and alignment. So if you can agree on a definition of what it means to feel, and what a gender is, then you can answer your question. But for me the mechanism of feeling gender is most aptly approached by the mechanisms that gender incorporate which are based on the physical characteristics derived from sexual differentiation as the target. That is not to say you cannot be a gender of the opposite sex, indeed because I think that gender is so much more a complex thing than the meat and potatos of sexual organs themselves, that to feel a gender can even be so much more than to feel a sex! :whistle: :blink:

Neat ideas, but basically, you don't know either?

Gender euphoria - a feeling of pride, comfort, or happiness in relation to one's percieved gender. Can be focused on one's own body, clothing, personality traits, or any other gender marker. Is specifically a self-focused emotion.

Gender dysphoria - a feeling of discomfort, unhappiness, or disgust with one's percieved gender. Can be focused on one's own body, clothing, personality traits, or any other gender marker. Is specifically a self-focused emotion.

Question for self reflection: Do you want to be a specific gender?

Any who read my previous posts and add this information may be able to form some insights into their own relation to their own gender.

Equin, I ask these of you because you appear vested and studied on the subject: On what basis is a person's perception of gender formed, or can this only be answered on an individual level? How did you personally determine the difference between male and female?

Gender is very much an individual experience. It is intensely personal and varied. It has cultural and generational differences, and is even percieved differently in subcultures. Sports masulinity is not the same as musical theater masculinity, but neither is the same as femininity in those circles.

For male and female, I assume you mean the genders of man and woman. I only make this distinction for the sake of the next paragraph. Those who identify on the binary show their gender in whatever way is most comfortable for them. Some guys fight, some dance using manly moves. Some guys like to blur the lines, and some like to keep it strict. For people who are clearly blurring the line, and do not use a gendered name, I find it polite to ask if they have a preferred pronoun. But this is only seen as polite if there is follow through on using the pronoun, so be ready before asking. For myself, I like to keep my hair shorter and my body posture manly. It makes me feel confident and at ease with myself. Sometimes I notice one of my mom's mannerisms slip through, but usually no one notices but me. I also like to dress like a mountain man, though I am not as hairy or buff.

Male and female are categories of sex. They are general distinctions with blurred lines. Intersex individuals are born not completely falling into male or female, may appear mostly one or the other, but still show that the line is not as clear as it was presented to us in grade school. And most importantly, intersex people still experience gender identity. This is one of the many reasons we separate sex and gender.

Just realized I misread your question completely. My apologies, rugadd.

Personally, I've always been very connected to my gender. I love everything about being masculine. I always used to hate the question, "what kind of a man do you want to be" because I want to be lots of different types, and life is too short. lol Now I interpret that quesion another way, but that's another topic.

Some of the types of masculine I want to be: punk, metalhead, victorian goth, theater kid/lead man, outdoor enthusiast, cowboy, knight, Powwow dancer, martial artist, fun uncle, husband, animal whisperer

Almost every one of those things can be masculine or feminine, but you can picture the stereotypical guy in each one, right? That's what I'm going for. Hope that helps!

Are your views on what make a man a combination of cultural depictions that appeal to you?

Yes? I'm not sure how it could not be, at least in part. As I mentioned in a earlier post on this thread, sometimes cultures have opposing ideas of masculinity.

If you're asking if I understand the masculinity of another through the parts that appeal to me, no. Your presentation of your gender and your relation to it are something I can understand best by understanding who you are as a whole. What you choose to show me and how are up to you, and I do my best to understand it as it was meant. Like conversation itself.

Many people have likened gender to a conversation. Many also liken it to a performance, with the world as the audience. And yet it is also a deep internal sense. So gender is simulteneously felt and expressed.

Is it accurate for one to say that trends can be witnessed concerning gender, but specifics must have the freedom to define themselves? Meaning, one should not judge a persons gender based only on societal norms compared to their outward appearance and instead, allow that information to be vacant until defined by the individual?

Would it be reasonable to assume unless otherwise notified based on outward appearance?

If one's goal is to be as kind and open as possible to the individuals you meet on a daily basis, it is wise to retrain oneself to avoid gendered identifiers in conversation until you know someone and have had a chance to ask their pronouns.

That said, it is also not an expectation at this time. Even gender nonconforming individuals in our culture have to learn how others experience gender. You see how easily this conversation of self-discovery branched out in a group that previously assumed everyone to be cisgender men and women. (Cisgender folks are those whose gender identity assigned gender at birth are one and the same.) So too, most people who have just discovered that they are not cisgender have little former knowledge of other people's relationship to gender or how to navigate the pronoun issue with a stranger. So if you are trying to be inclusive and understanding, most gender nonconforming people will pick up on the effort you are making, and they will try to be gentle in their corrections in return.

The above feels slightly clumsy, so a personal example. I work with the public, in huge crowd sizes. I used to often say, "ladies and gentlemen." To include other genders, I can make an extra effort. Saying, "ladies, gentlemen, and everyone else," I will immediately cause strife with those who dislike the idea of any more than the two genders they are accustomed to. If I say, "welcome everyone" "hello folks" or may I have your attention please," I evade notice of those who are disinclined to be open to the idea, but create a space that feels welcoming and inviting to all genders. The consistency with which I manage it shows how strongly I am dedicated to understanding and accepting my LGBT friends. The more I practice it, the more natural it becomes, and the fewer mistakes I make.

The same is true of my personal interactions with strangers in these crowds. When I describe someone, I tend to take a more clothing-based approach. After all, it's one of the identifiers an individual has usually chosen for themselves. I listen for how people describe themselves and others in their group. And I try to keep myself using gender neutral terms when I can. I do still make mistakes, after all I've got a few decades of programming to deal with, like the rest of us here. But the effort is always noticed by the people who really need it, and I have had many people open up to me as the first person they felt comfortable trusting if I was able to use only gender neutral terms consistently while speaking to them.

Dumb semi-tangential question, but how is folx different from folks?
I get that it's apparently more lgbt... friendly, but how?

If anything using folx instead of folks is more of a personal choice and identifier. Like how Jewish folks might write G-d instead of god, but they don't expect others to do it. Anyone that sees it from within the culture knows instantly the cultural associations and that the writer is connected to a specific community. It is never expected of an ally. So it's less of a "I'm LGBT friendly" flag and more of a "I'm queer, and I am comfortable with you knowing that" flag.

Edit: Keep in mind, queer people have historically needed to find each other under the noses of those who would hurt them. So recognizing a cultural identifier that is used in the community is not an indication that it is wise to out someone to everyone else. You never know when you might discover someone else has transphobic attitudes, so until you know for certain that a person is comfortable being outed, any conversation one has had with another should be considered private for safety's sake.

rugadd wrote: Neat ideas, but basically, you don't know either?

What else do we have to discuss beyond personal experiences? And how does one tell where the line is drawn between ideas and personal experiences to assert worth to the idea. Better to challenge the idea if you can than appeal to the likelihood of false authority IMO.

So you would rather we each discuss only our own personal experience, rather than the variety of personal experiences that exist? What would that achieve other than the drowning out of minority experiences?

If we were to speak of what it is like to know which is your dominant hand, and the entire thread was full of people sharing what it is like to be right handed, should not someone share what their left-handed and ambidextrous friends have told them about what it feels like to have those experiences? It wasn't too long ago, right handedness was considered natural and correct, but in a conversation about dominant hands we still have a duty to include the minorities. If I am the only person speaking up for the minorities in a conversation on gender, consider that there may be others here who fear rejection too much to speak for themselves. It's a statistical improbability for them not to be here and notice the acceptance or lack thereof on this thread.

You speak of false authority, yet you wish to challenge ideas while you offer no knowledge of the experiences of others outside the experience of yourself and speculation with your experience as that basis. If you think you have never met a trans person, consider how statistically unlikely that is and the possible reasons that they may have had for not opening up to you about such things.