Gisteron

Proof? Facts? You not believe me doesn't mean I have to justify what I feel is right to you or anyone else.

The exchange of thoughts and ideas stimulates thinking and that is good. Thinking can be learning, spiritual or otherwise.

All differences aside, I actually enjoy the exchanges we are having. Thank you very much.

*Sigh*

I have already stated that you dont have to justify anything.

No one does.

However, in the exchange of thoughts and ideas, well, if your prepared to go no farther, deeper, etc into the thoughts you tend to exchange then there is no exchange.

You can say that everything is energy.

I can ask why, or how, you came to that conclusion.

I can perhaps offer some contrary, yet compelling evidence.

If your response is to simply say you dont have to justify yourself to me, well, the conversation is at an end.

This is a discussion forum, one that treads on what we think about many subjects.

If you plan to go no deeper than surface statements then the learning that can be gained from the exchanges, spiritual or otherwise, is stunted severely.

I dont have to do alot of things.

I want to.

Certainly, it makes the exchanges here richer if I am willing to "justify" myself.

However you are taking a defensive stance with that word.

I would say I am willing to explain my reasoning and how I came to my conclusions, and, in the spirit of interaction will ask how you came to yours so as to understand them better, you better, and perhaps, see if it is something I myself can adopt as a viable application.

Or perhaps I will find that it is not viable. or that something I thought is not, and it will be discarded.

So yes, I ask for you to "show your work" to enhance my understanding.

Not unlike a math teacher teaching a method of application.

I can learn to add by you showing me the process of coming to that conclusion, but if you just give a conclusion, an answer, I can learn only so much.

You can stimulate thoughts with the exchange of ideas, but that stimulation leads to questions. In the spirit of exchange I think it is highly beneficial to all to being able and willing to answer them, discuss them, test them, dissect them, and perhaps even defend them.

Gisteron wrote: How you got to your conclusions is more useful to all of us than your conclusions alone. That's why some of us will ask for an argument or some evidence.

Had I learned that at a much younger age how much time and money I would've saved.

Taking someone in authority on faith rather than asking questions...

A general question to everyone reading this... Why is it important that anyone else believes the same things you do or thinks about things in the same way?

Other people not agreeing with you shouldn't make what you believe to be true in your heart or mind any more or less real to you. If it does, and you're threatened by other people's comments about your beliefs, you may wish to reconsider them.

It's okay to concede that you see the world through different lenses. Your views and opinions have been well stated and acknowledging your differences won't make you seem weaker or any less right about what you believe.

Pepperoni, sausage, and mushroom. Or not. Pourquoi est-ce important?

Guys

If your thinking then you're changing and creating. If you are thinking about anything I've said then I am having an influence on you. OMG you might even have learned something. Like it or not.

We obviously don't think along the same lines or the same way. We're different. I don't need proof for everything and you do or at least it seems that way.

Don't think of this as criticism, challenge or who is right or wrong. I feel one way and you think another. Think and feeling are complemantary. I believe people need to do more thinking and feeling to better the world.

Some things can be known directly but have no evidence. If you haven't experienced this then you haven't. Some things can be understood without explanation and can't be explained, maybe never will be. Some people are short and some tall.

Some people connect with the: intangable, creative, imaginative, intuitive, unlearned and untaught. I try and I believe and feel (with no proof to offer) there is more and I desire to open my mind to the possibilities.

If you guys are engineers then you must be good ones.

This has been fun. Thanks

Peace

Khaos wrote:

I cant prove Africa is where it is either, for those of you who wonder what is proveable... We take the words of others and that it exists...

Actually, this is a bit of a stretch, as had I the money, I could fly you there.

I can show you video of what is going on there.

There is alot more to the proof Africa exists than others words for it.

There is a great deal of our history as well in dealing with Africa.

You can in fact prove where Africa is.

As for the burden of proof, well no, you dont have to prove anything, and yet....I think in a place that is a learning environment, spiritual or otherwise, it would be best if one is going to make claims of any kind that they are prepared to back it up with something.

Switching the burden of proof is a poor method of dealing with questions asked in the search to learn from what one themself has presented as fact no less, is a poor way to go about in any type of learning environment.

You could fly me Arizona, and take me to the middle of the desert area and tell me it is as well...

Never having been ther, how would I know?

My friend Khaos wouldnt jack with me? Would he? (Answer, the closer the friend, the more the likelihood, :lol:...)

But, right now, all we have are the words of others on what is there...

Granted, the science behind it proves it so, but, only because we want to trust the science, and see no reason to doubt it at this time... (the science is geography)....

Actually, there is a case to be made that absense of evidence is indeed evidence of absense, but I don't think I need to make that case unless prompted

But, the case would be a losing one, as the theory cannot be proven true...
\
If not 'losing', weak...

lol...

Gisteron wrote: As for the line you quoted, we have a name for the universe. It is "universe". If your reason to rename it to "god" is only so that you can smuggle in the word and claim god exists, you are doing our language a disservice and are begging for misunderstandings.

I believe he was using the 'universe' as his "proof" for God, not as a "symbol" for God...

Just as to some, a baby being born is a miracle, and proof of God...

Yes, there is a science to it, and we understand so much of it...

But not every aspect of it... But we are trying...

Khaos wrote: So yes, I ask for you to "show your work" to enhance my understanding.

Some people cannot 'show their work....

And it leads to this circles...

Some of us are comfortable with the 'feeling' that 'this' is right, and we 'know' it in our guts...

I cant let you in my head to see how and why I know what I know, only that I know...

I makes sense...

I see the evidence...

lol, and I am not even talking about GOD, lol....

ANd, some find the answer they are happy with, such as GOD, and set about reaffirming their theory... They cant prove it to you, because you see different answers...

I am working up a post on "science and Jeddism quoting the Dalia Lama, and hope to have it posted soon, but these conversations are a lot of fun for me too, lol...

If Scott says a cherry blossom is proof God exists to him, and you can trace its path, all the way back to the first spec of life, and say, see, here is your scientific proof of where that flower came from, Scott can go, "Yea, aitn that proof of God's miracles?

And you would both be right, for where you are, and how you think...

Arcade wrote: A general question to everyone reading this... Why is it important that anyone else believes the same things you do or thinks about things in the same way?

It isn't. It is only important that what we believe is as true as possible, because beliefs inform our actions and our actions have consequences for us and everything around us. Because no man is an island. Nobody lives in a bubble, and no beliefs reside in bubbles such that they have no effect on anything. And because we care about more than just ourselves. We care about each other, about other people and about future generations. Beliefs matter.

If your thinking then you're changing and creating.

Not necessarily.

If you are thinking about anything I've said then I am having an influence on you. OMG you might even have learned something. Like it or not.

No, I have not learned something. Other than what you think, of which the value is essentially 0 if you intend to go no further. Certainly, you have got me thinking, and yes, there is an influence, that influence is to question. The questioning is in the hopes of learning.

We obviously don't think along the same lines or the same way. We're different. I don't need proof for everything and you do or at least it seems that way.

I dont know if we think along the same lines, or in the same way, as you have no intention of explaining yourself. Obviously were different, which is why I am asking questions to begin with, because I am approaching it from an angle that isnt yours. In questioning, I am trying to see where you are coming from, as the statements, the conclusions are just that, and I am trying to work back along the lines of your process for more understanding, as again, this a forum for discussion.

Apparently, thats too much to ask for.

Don't think of this as criticism, challenge or who is right or wrong. I feel one way and you think another. Think and feeling are complemantary. I believe people need to do more thinking and feeling to better the world.

This has no bearing on anything. Obvious that we think and feel differently, which again, is why we are conversing. I would think the fact that we are different is self evident. Though again, by your conclusion, we are also one...Interesting how we are also....singular.

Some things can be known directly but have no evidence. If you haven't experienced this then you haven't. Some things can be understood without explanation and can't be explained, maybe never will be. Some people are short and some tall.

This, is nonsense.

Some people connect with the: intangable, creative, imaginative, intuitive, unlearned and untaught. I try and I believe and feel (with no proof to offer) there is more and I desire to open my mind to the possibilities.

No idea what your talking about here, and I suppose its pointless to ask for a clarification, as it cant be learned, o taught...

There is more...more what?

This is vaguery for the sake of it, and offers nothing to anything.

Unless you just like to sound cryptic.

Some people would mistake it as wisdom, and snake oil salesman have been using that approach for a long time.

What I have learned Rickie, is that to engage you in conversation will reap no value to me, as you do nothing but evade in depth discussion at all cost.

So my conclusion based on the evidence gathered, or in this case, your refusal to reciprocate in any real meaningful conversation, is to no longe attempt to have one with you.

Whats interesting is that you insinuate that I am close minded, when it is you who has refused to open up to me.

Why do you and Gisteron often questions others beliefs, but put not theories of your own out for inspection...

Do you have your own theories?

Or just science?

Not thoughts?

Nothing to test?

Khaos wrote: What I have learned Rickie, is that to engage you in conversation will reap no value to me, as you do nothing but evade in depth discussion at all cost.

So my conclusion based on the evidence gathered, or in this case, your refusal to reciprocate in any real meaningful conversation, is to no longe attempt to have one with you.

Whats interesting is that you insinuate that I am close minded, when it is you who has refused to open up to me.

Sorry I can't answer your question as concretely as you desire. Maybe someday we'll connect better. Peace

PS I don't call what you say nonsense and snake oil.