TOTJO Circle... Lets get this decided...

steamboat28 wrote: Well, seems you're right. Apparently the Coca-Cola logo is always, always, always, white-on-red and never, ever changes. Ever.

Thanks for the sarcasm, but the Coca-Cola logo is a trademark. Since you seem to feel like you are the only expert here, let me be clear.

A trademark, trade mark, or trade-mark[1] is a recognizable sign, design or expression which identifies products or services of a particular source from those of others. The trademark owner can be an individual, business organization, or any legal entity. A trademark may be located on a package, a label, a voucher or on the product itself. For the sake of corporate identity trademarks are also being displayed on company buildings.

As someone who works in a marketing capacity for a worldwide media company with more lawyers than anything else, I can assure you that these things are taken very seriously. You can "graphic design" anything to death, but the trademark is specifically what is legally registered by an entity to separate it from competition.

If you want to see viciously guarded trademarks and copyrights, you only need to look to the National Football League in the U.S.

When TOTJO decides to trademark a logo, that will be the only official one whether we use it exclusively or not. It will be the only legally protected mark in the eyes of the law. Until then, it will remain a point of contention.

Coca-Cola can change the colors and designs in it's marketing, but that doesn't make the entire design a trademarked Coca-Cola logo.

When in doubt, look for the ®

Senan wrote: ...long post...

Which is why, if you check the other thread I linked earlier, I requested TotJO to register the circle-less logo for trademark purposes as well as the "official" one. To provide them with versatility. #jussayin'

steamboat28 wrote:

Senan wrote: ...long post...

Which is why, if you check the other thread I linked earlier, I requested TotJO to register the circle-less logo for trademark purposes as well as the "official" one. To provide them with versatility. #jussayin'

Our current trademark isn't registered.

The US trademark filing fee is $800.00.

Br. John wrote: The US trademark filing fee is $800.00.

I'm putting that in my "Things to Donate Toward" list.

steamboat28 wrote:

Br. John wrote: The US trademark filing fee is $800.00.

I'm putting that in my "Things to Donate Toward" list.

We can and will honor specified donations and account for them. The only proviso is that if we were in danger of losing our domain or internet service special funds could be used if nothing else is available.

What's in a shape?

I personally find both symbols valid with their own intended purpose, and to use both would be appropriate considering the art of the Ecards and the unity they express and display... The nature of the force is expressed in the art of Ecards because the unity is in the art, the border of nature itself... We have the main symbol, with the circle, it is like the formal symbol, and then we have the informal symbol, E cards (art), etc... I would say they are both official... The one with the circle defines the group, the wholeness, completeness, etc... The one without, defines the individual, The relation of the subjective art and the interconnection of the symbol, and order...

Symbols always get misrepresented, or used and changed to fit a certain agenda... The cross for example, has been abused by Nazi Germany, the "iron cross" as it is called, and then christian groups began using it, unknown how it was affiliated... :woohoo: :sick:

That is my opinion, as I am no authority over the symbol, this is simply how I see it, and understand the symbol.

Llama Su wrote: Symbols always get misrepresented, or used and changed to fit a certain agenda... The cross for example, has been abused by Nazi Germany, the "iron cross" as it is called, and then christian groups began using it, unknown how it was affiliated... :woohoo: :sick:

The Iron Cross is a military decoration of honor or valor. You can find it in medieval heraldry all over the place. It is not a symbol that earned its origins in Nazi Germany nor do I think it was Christian in origin as crosses were used before Christianity. As (if I remember right) the swastika isn't Nazi in origin either. Nazi Germany used the Iron Cross as it was intended.

But to keep this more on topic: I like the logo. I like it in the black-and-white. It's simple, it's recognizable, and it's meaningful. I'd say keep the circle. It's a symbol found in many religions in a meaningful way. I think it's a great device to contain the black.

Kamizu wrote: The Iron Cross is a military decoration of honor or valor. You can find it in medieval heraldry all over the place. It is not a symbol that earned its origins in Nazi Germany nor do I think it was Christian in origin as crosses were used before Christianity. As (if I remember right) the swastika isn't Nazi in origin either. Nazi Germany used the Iron Cross as it was intended.

Absolutely correct. Even if I only look at Germany, the Iron cross was in use long before Nazism in the German military. It's origins lie with the Teutonic Knights of medieval times. The only addition the Nazis added was putting a swastika in the middle but even that isn't the case with all versions of that time period.

The swastika by the way is an ancient symbol in many cultures and represents the sun or the circle of life. It can still be found today for example in a lot of Buddhist temples (for example in Tibet). It's darkly ironic that Hitler used a symbol of light to bring so much death and destruction into the world.

(Sorry for the off-topic)

I personally see no reason to change the symbol even to the point that I have a bad feeling even with the thought of doing so. One reason Br.John pointed out is a financial one. Who is going to pay for all of this? Appart of the practical reasons there is an inherent one: this symbol has been with us since the very beginning. It has seen schisms, conflict victory development and generations of Jedi; many different people from all faiths all over the world have put their faith and trust into this symbol; and my esoteric accent tell me that for exactly those reasons this symbol possesses a lot of power. It is has story to tell a Jedi mythos, unparalleled in the Jedi community. Then there is the symbolic value: the contrast and unity of dark and light; the points of the stars which reflect the tenets and teachings.

I also am impressed with and agree with Master Akkarin`s point out this unity being further demonstrated by the bars having the same coloured symbol. This is not about esthetics but about unity and what we represent. I whole heartedly disagree with changing it and agree that this symbol be unified in the bars.

MTFBWY all.

Jon wrote: I personally see no reason to change the symbol

Nobody's talking about changing it. We're just arguing over what it currently is.

Jon wrote: This is not about esthetics but about unity and what we represent.

If it's not at least a little about aesthetics, then you're never ever going to have a good logo. Lots of people make logos every day that "represent" them with no thought to aesthetics, and it winds up looking terrible.

Jestor wrote: This post made in the other thread, but I copy/pasted, so as to not derail the thread, and take away from the art...

Forgive the confusion...

Akkarin wrote: One of my pet annoyances with the Councillor badge is that it has a different central colour for the TotJO symbol than the rest - the colours are white and black for a reason

Having the symbol the same is unifying in my view so that's all that I would change

Wonderful work though!

Does the circle matter?

lol...

I said it did in the other thread about the symbol, when we started with the ecards...

Others said 'no'...

So, perhaps council needs to define it, as to whether the circle must be included...

Right now, in these designs (I feel like an art critic missing the point of the art, and instead, focusing too much on the symbols shown, lol) show the black outline, and then the 'background bleeds through the center of the star (most of them do, I dont think the councillor does)

Basically, if the 'black and white matter, then I request we use it everywhere, starting with the symbol at the top of our page....

But, lets hear from everyone before we take it to Council...

If it not about changing it Steam boat then please explain to me what Master Jestor is proposing. I am always open to understanding, please explain? May be it is not about aesthetics because we already have a good logo?

I could be wrong (it happens) but I thought this was initially about the color scheme...

Jon wrote: If it not about changing it Steam boat then please explain to me what Master Jestor is proposing. I am always open to understanding, please explain? May be it is not about aesthetics because we already have a good logo?

Jestor was discussing Akkarin's belief that the symbol for official uses should always be black-and-white and always have the circle, at least in regards to the badges. With which I wholly and vehemently disagree, which lead to a (second) discussion on what the symbol actually is, at its core, with people saying it's totally invalid if it doesn't have the circle, or it's not black and white, or whatever.

All of which are a serious cramp on artistic and aesthetic versatility, and really, don't do anything extra to reinforce the meaning of the logo. But w/e.

Kamizu wrote: I like the logo. I like it in the black-and-white. It's simple, it's recognizable, and it's meaningful. I'd say keep the circle. It's a symbol found in many religions in a meaningful way. I think it's a great device to contain the black.

To expand on my comment, I mean the black-and-white for the official 'front page' and top of the page bar. The use of other colors anywhere else I don't see an issue with. Such as the rank bars that were posted earlier. Or any alternate 'artistic' use. I just think the space associations should be maintained (like with the black and white). Two strongly different colors. And to do so, I think the circle should stay apart of it.

Sorry people, I meant no harm to get off track, simply pointing out negative connotations symbols may take over time. I accept the truth as you see it Kit, and Ve, can you accept and not deny my truth? :blush: I intend to keep this topic on point, which was all I was making, a point. I think everything else I spoke of held more weight than the Iron Cross part. Ok back to convo-

Llama Su wrote: Sorry people, I meant no harm to get off track, simply pointing out negative connotations symbols may take over time. I accept the truth as you see it Kit, and Ve, can you accept and not deny my truth? :blush: I intend to keep this topic on point, which was all I was making, a point. I think everything else I spoke of held more weight than the Iron Cross part. Ok back to convo-

*hugs* I have no issues with your point Llama I understand the spirit of your message. I just wanted to ...fix? your facts a little is all. I carry the Iron Cross in my personal Coat of Arms I guess I got a little protective I'm sorry! I didn't intend it to mitigate your point!

I think we should all just let sleeping Wesclis lie!

I guess I should weigh in, I can easily make any changes you want sense it was done in layers on photoshop.

But in my opinion, you'll never settle an opinion on what art should be since art is more about holding a mirror up to yourself and seeing what reflects back, like a rorschach test. One person can see the black and white symbol as good vs evil, while another person could see duality, and yet another person might only see the black and another only see the white. Some will see it as tradition and a link to the past. While other will see it as only the first version of progresse to be made.

A symbol only needs to be recognizable, and we shouldn't have to trademark it unless we are worried about other people pretending to be us. Which one day me might.

Very wise point Vesha, something which I was attempting to allude to...