TOTJO Circle... Lets get this decided...

666 wrote: @ Akkarin, I know, some council members already told me that, and I do accept that as our logo, but for some reason, here is a now post about it, and the website, still have a wrong logo, (also in some other places... facebook, bla.. bla... bla...)
time to encourage the use of the real logo? maybe?, at lease in public places?

It's not wro..there is no rea...do you people understand how branding works, or should I just give the **** up and let you destroy the aesthetics of this gorgeous logo in peace?


edit - I apologize for the hostility in that post, but I don't understand why we don't take a moment to ask those of us that have had to deal with branding issues and graphic design and logo recognizability and heraldic function and contrast and negative space and ART and things what their opinion is, instead of all just harrumphing about "the way it ought to be"

lol, wow....

Hi steamboat...

We having fun?

Lol, OK, yes, we did agree thatbthe circle was officially a part...

I guess, my question is more "where is it officially needed?"

I also think 666's point was it doesn't change mid-campaign....

Yes, it changes, but, they do not officially use more than two versions at a time...

And even then, only in the transition form one to the other...

Rank bars, are official, page header, official....

Ecards sent out from TOTJO, official....

Ecards not sent out from TOTJO, such as posted by a member, unofficial...

Hows that?

Which means for the ecards, either mbets need to post them and tag TOTJO on Facebook/g+, or we need them with the official emblem too, to be posted officially...

Just to continue/adapt Steamboat's point...



...all of which are recognisably the same symbol, displayed in different ways. I appreciate the need to be clearer with the "official" usage, but I would say either the "star" or the "circle" are similarly identifiable... in some situations, one or the other looks better. Why limit ourselves?

As to colours, I agree they should be uniform if we're talking about stuff like rank bars, because otherwise it just looks a little messy, but beyond that also see no reason to restrict them further.

Just my 2c.

I give up.

Jestor wrote: Ecards sent out from TOTJO, official....

Ecards not sent out from TOTJO, such as posted by a member, unofficial...

Hows that?

Which means for the ecards, either mbets need to post them and tag TOTJO on Facebook/g+, or we need them with the official emblem too, to be posted officially...

Not wishing to undermine... but:

To be honest I had considered the E-cards as 'art' and the ones that 'blend' the symbol into the picture itself I thought looked really good. I don't really view them as 'official' in the same way that our rank bars or front page symbols are 'official'. The e-cards in my view clearly come under the umbrella of art.

In reference to Veshu's badges, lets be real, their perfect, as close as it gets anyways. Lets stop nit picking people...

so the new question is...

when or where we can use the real logo, and where we can use a work of art?

IMO, if you are representing totjo, you must use the real logo, ecards, must have the real logo, the website, documentation, business cards must have the real logo. every representation of totjo must be done with the real logo

an image I create inspired in the logo, I can post it anywhere, as a work of art, but is not representation of totjo, or is just for my use, or to show to the users here, not intended to be used as Public image.

a public image representing totjo, must have the real logo.



=====
this is my opnion, not representing anybody else than me
@steamboat28, like it or not, (like me) the logo exist, there was no contest to create a new logo, or there was no debate to improve it, change or modernize the logo, so we must use what is already there, if one day, totjo made a contest for a new logo, new design, update or whatever, we all can have ideas.... but till that day come.
the logo is there, it already exist, and nobody ask yet (officially) to be changed replaced, updated, or whatever.

anyway, we are all free to show up, new designs, new logos, new ideas... who knows, maybe you can create one, and everybody love it. and totjo swap logos.
again imo

Creating art that uses the logo is still a representation of the Temple regardless of where the material is used so unless we say only ever ever use that logo and never anything else (which I think i utterly silly) then it just comes down to official usage and unofficial usage.

The e-cards are created by other members and we decide to post them to our facebook page. Perhaps if we include say "Created by member......" [picture] that would get around it and give an indication that there are actually people contributing elsewhere.

Saying someone else created it would not be official representation but the Temple appreciating their artistic talent.

steamboat28 wrote: Well, seems you're right. Apparently the Coca-Cola logo is always, always, always, white-on-red and never, ever changes. Ever.

Thanks for the sarcasm, but the Coca-Cola logo is a trademark. Since you seem to feel like you are the only expert here, let me be clear.

A trademark, trade mark, or trade-mark[1] is a recognizable sign, design or expression which identifies products or services of a particular source from those of others. The trademark owner can be an individual, business organization, or any legal entity. A trademark may be located on a package, a label, a voucher or on the product itself. For the sake of corporate identity trademarks are also being displayed on company buildings.

As someone who works in a marketing capacity for a worldwide media company with more lawyers than anything else, I can assure you that these things are taken very seriously. You can "graphic design" anything to death, but the trademark is specifically what is legally registered by an entity to separate it from competition.

If you want to see viciously guarded trademarks and copyrights, you only need to look to the National Football League in the U.S.

When TOTJO decides to trademark a logo, that will be the only official one whether we use it exclusively or not. It will be the only legally protected mark in the eyes of the law. Until then, it will remain a point of contention.

Coca-Cola can change the colors and designs in it's marketing, but that doesn't make the entire design a trademarked Coca-Cola logo.

When in doubt, look for the ®

Senan wrote: ...long post...

Which is why, if you check the other thread I linked earlier, I requested TotJO to register the circle-less logo for trademark purposes as well as the "official" one. To provide them with versatility. #jussayin'

steamboat28 wrote:

Senan wrote: ...long post...

Which is why, if you check the other thread I linked earlier, I requested TotJO to register the circle-less logo for trademark purposes as well as the "official" one. To provide them with versatility. #jussayin'

Our current trademark isn't registered.

The US trademark filing fee is $800.00.

Br. John wrote: The US trademark filing fee is $800.00.

I'm putting that in my "Things to Donate Toward" list.

steamboat28 wrote:

Br. John wrote: The US trademark filing fee is $800.00.

I'm putting that in my "Things to Donate Toward" list.

We can and will honor specified donations and account for them. The only proviso is that if we were in danger of losing our domain or internet service special funds could be used if nothing else is available.

What's in a shape?

I personally find both symbols valid with their own intended purpose, and to use both would be appropriate considering the art of the Ecards and the unity they express and display... The nature of the force is expressed in the art of Ecards because the unity is in the art, the border of nature itself... We have the main symbol, with the circle, it is like the formal symbol, and then we have the informal symbol, E cards (art), etc... I would say they are both official... The one with the circle defines the group, the wholeness, completeness, etc... The one without, defines the individual, The relation of the subjective art and the interconnection of the symbol, and order...

Symbols always get misrepresented, or used and changed to fit a certain agenda... The cross for example, has been abused by Nazi Germany, the "iron cross" as it is called, and then christian groups began using it, unknown how it was affiliated... :woohoo: :sick:

That is my opinion, as I am no authority over the symbol, this is simply how I see it, and understand the symbol.

Llama Su wrote: Symbols always get misrepresented, or used and changed to fit a certain agenda... The cross for example, has been abused by Nazi Germany, the "iron cross" as it is called, and then christian groups began using it, unknown how it was affiliated... :woohoo: :sick:

The Iron Cross is a military decoration of honor or valor. You can find it in medieval heraldry all over the place. It is not a symbol that earned its origins in Nazi Germany nor do I think it was Christian in origin as crosses were used before Christianity. As (if I remember right) the swastika isn't Nazi in origin either. Nazi Germany used the Iron Cross as it was intended.

But to keep this more on topic: I like the logo. I like it in the black-and-white. It's simple, it's recognizable, and it's meaningful. I'd say keep the circle. It's a symbol found in many religions in a meaningful way. I think it's a great device to contain the black.

Kamizu wrote: The Iron Cross is a military decoration of honor or valor. You can find it in medieval heraldry all over the place. It is not a symbol that earned its origins in Nazi Germany nor do I think it was Christian in origin as crosses were used before Christianity. As (if I remember right) the swastika isn't Nazi in origin either. Nazi Germany used the Iron Cross as it was intended.

Absolutely correct. Even if I only look at Germany, the Iron cross was in use long before Nazism in the German military. It's origins lie with the Teutonic Knights of medieval times. The only addition the Nazis added was putting a swastika in the middle but even that isn't the case with all versions of that time period.

The swastika by the way is an ancient symbol in many cultures and represents the sun or the circle of life. It can still be found today for example in a lot of Buddhist temples (for example in Tibet). It's darkly ironic that Hitler used a symbol of light to bring so much death and destruction into the world.

(Sorry for the off-topic)

I personally see no reason to change the symbol even to the point that I have a bad feeling even with the thought of doing so. One reason Br.John pointed out is a financial one. Who is going to pay for all of this? Appart of the practical reasons there is an inherent one: this symbol has been with us since the very beginning. It has seen schisms, conflict victory development and generations of Jedi; many different people from all faiths all over the world have put their faith and trust into this symbol; and my esoteric accent tell me that for exactly those reasons this symbol possesses a lot of power. It is has story to tell a Jedi mythos, unparalleled in the Jedi community. Then there is the symbolic value: the contrast and unity of dark and light; the points of the stars which reflect the tenets and teachings.

I also am impressed with and agree with Master Akkarin`s point out this unity being further demonstrated by the bars having the same coloured symbol. This is not about esthetics but about unity and what we represent. I whole heartedly disagree with changing it and agree that this symbol be unified in the bars.

MTFBWY all.

Jon wrote: I personally see no reason to change the symbol

Nobody's talking about changing it. We're just arguing over what it currently is.

Jon wrote: This is not about esthetics but about unity and what we represent.

If it's not at least a little about aesthetics, then you're never ever going to have a good logo. Lots of people make logos every day that "represent" them with no thought to aesthetics, and it winds up looking terrible.

Jestor wrote: This post made in the other thread, but I copy/pasted, so as to not derail the thread, and take away from the art...

Forgive the confusion...

Akkarin wrote: One of my pet annoyances with the Councillor badge is that it has a different central colour for the TotJO symbol than the rest - the colours are white and black for a reason

Having the symbol the same is unifying in my view so that's all that I would change

Wonderful work though!

Does the circle matter?

lol...

I said it did in the other thread about the symbol, when we started with the ecards...

Others said 'no'...

So, perhaps council needs to define it, as to whether the circle must be included...

Right now, in these designs (I feel like an art critic missing the point of the art, and instead, focusing too much on the symbols shown, lol) show the black outline, and then the 'background bleeds through the center of the star (most of them do, I dont think the councillor does)

Basically, if the 'black and white matter, then I request we use it everywhere, starting with the symbol at the top of our page....

But, lets hear from everyone before we take it to Council...

If it not about changing it Steam boat then please explain to me what Master Jestor is proposing. I am always open to understanding, please explain? May be it is not about aesthetics because we already have a good logo?