Native American Jedi? Part 4 - Gross National….Peace?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

Is that happiness stemming from joy or pleasure?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

I really like that line..."competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness".

I notice that to be particularly void of material things, but instead wholly speaks of those experiences and qualities of character Sun Bear was pointing to in what we would be "measured" by. Not the collection of "things" but the collection of our collective self?

JLSpinner wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

Is that happiness stemming from joy or pleasure?

Why can't it be both? Competition is not a win lose scenario as in all or nothing and the place you come in does not correlate to happy or sad. Meaning if another exceeds you in some area that does not mean automatically one is sad. In fact that position can also be a position of pride and joy as long as you did your best. And it is also a position that promotes growth and perseverance to be better next time. This has to do with material Things just as much as any other. Beating the competition out for that job promotion brings in more money and that produces the ability to provide better for family which produces happiness in them. Not winning that promotion causes suffering which produces growth and the drive to try harder next time. But that suffering is not automaticslly sadness. It can be rededication as well. Nature is designed this way, it is a competitive state of existence whether it is humans in society or the lion and the hyena competing against the gazelle.

The funny thing about these American Indian quotes is they base themselves on new age ideas that the Indians were peaceful all loving communities in complete cooperation with one another and nature and this is just not true. These tribes were always in brutal competition with one another over land and other resources. Wars were more commin than not. In fact sun bear was ousted from his community because he betrayed his tribes sacred ways in the pursuit of profit by selling books and new age ideas that he erroneously packaged as Indian tradition.

I suppose you could claim both, but generally speaking the two aren't created in the same way. Pleasure being caused by external stimuli and being of a temporary and superficial nature. Joy is an internal state. Pleasure usually leads to desire which is not cohesive with joy. But perhaps you have a different experience.

JLSpinner wrote: I suppose you could claim both, but generally speaking the two aren't created in the same way. Pleasure being caused by external stimuli and being of a temporary and superficial nature. Joy is an internal state. Pleasure usually leads to desire which is not cohesive with joy. But perhaps you have a different experience.

No I think I have the exact same experience as every one else. In our competitive reality the win creates pleasure, which in turn leads to the desire to do that again. But the elevated position that win results in, after the fact, can create joy, the continued internal state of being.

Nobodies experience is the exact same.

I apologize if you are offended. I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

JLSpinner wrote: Nobodies experience is the exact same.

I apologize if you are offended...

What are you talking about? How did you come to the idea that I was offended? I was simply disusing a subject from an opposed point of view?

Wasn't sure on your tone. Didn't want to upset you.

JLSpinner wrote: I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

Yes but that is an unsustainable state in and of itself. What was it that allowed you the luxury of that state vs being in survival mode where you have to search for food shelter and the like? It was being successful at competition which provided your basal needs that in turn allowed that down time in which you could enact that joyful state of losing your sense of self.

Its a balance of the two. We gain through striving and then we can enjoy that.

Any state is unsustainable. This joyous state can exist quite often with a quiet mind. You have made a good point though. I'm am afforded the luxury more because of man's advancement. Even still joy can be found in the work of the day. I'll think on this a bit.

Thank you.