Native American Jedi? Part 4 - Gross National….Peace?

For some reason, after reading this it instantly reminded me of the country of Bhutan’s “Gross National Happiness”.

For those that don’t know Gross National Happiness, or GNH, was a term coined by Bhutan’s then current king, Jigme Singye Wangchuck, and used as the nation’s new metric for determining the prosperity of the country. It was created to promote the development of the countries Buddhist spiritual values (i.e. happiness) as opposed to the Western materialistic centered GDP (Gross Domestic Product).

Essentially, it was them saying, “Hey, we want to value the well-being and happiness of our people instead of material ‘stuff’.”

Pretty cool right? Well, to me, Sun Bear is backing up this very same ideal, except perhaps in a slightly different sense. In this way, he’s describing more our ability to live in harmony with the world around us- both nature and humanity specifically.

Placing that as the major guiding principle of any nation (or our own individual lives), to me, is both a powerful and revolutionary idea.

[From a blog post by Matt Valentine at Buddhaimonia.com]


Commentary: Perhaps it remains fitting that this Temple lacks a physical edifice. Would it be the stone of our building by which we are defined? Or should it be the very nature of our roots as a wider community built on the world's web through the transmission of mere pixels on the edge of tens of thousands of years of technological advancements in human communications (paraphrasing Reacher from his Knighthood Ceremony )? Thus, judge not our Temple by How we interact in our community, but How Well we understand our role in the same, and what we do with it from there.

But we are living in a material world and we are material beings, so why should we not look to material things to make us happy? Are not food and shelter material things?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: But we are living in a material world and we are material beings, so why should we not look to material things to make us happy? Are not food and shelter material things?

Fair point.

I understand the Bhutan example to be more symbolic of a better measurement of "happiness" in the spiritual sense where one would attempt to judge the effectiveness of national policy on the whole population where economic prowess were not particularly thriving. So for illustrative purposes I think the GDP vs GNH issue was simply on the spiritual plane, not the physical. Wherein our access to worldly or materialistic things certainly have influence over our general spirit, in the mood and satisfaction sense, sure...those would probably account for deviations in such measurements. One could be the happiest person any of us know, but without food in the belly or a roof over head, maintaining that attitude long term is certainly a challenge.

Yet, I have also read somewhere recently that a "happiness" poll conducted in the U.S. (?) found homeless people to be generally "happier" than people who work jobs that they despise. So there is that. The West is known for its consumeristic materialism...does that define us? Should it?

*Insert some form of Jedi attachment theory here...

I took the larger point of the original quote presented from Sun Bear to be speaking more of how we are defined by our actions towards our fellow-beings, and not by the scale of that which we create. I can be the best most influential commercial real estate developer NYC has ever seen...building incredible structures that will last for decades...but be a total jerk to all who work for me, and all who I interact with. What will my legacy be?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: But we are living in a material world and we are material beings, so why should we not look to material things to make us happy? Are not food and shelter material things?

The materialism mentioned might be about behavioural possessiveness and how it distorts ones frame of self identity, by shaping focus as an owner, by and of the group of possessions. Which I'd suggest disrupts the potential to relate to the process of change in a more 'happy' way, since we're talking about happiness. New things get old, useful things get used, etc, but that having a possession is not necessarily bad, rather being possessive usually is because the value is not related to the object but how we perceived it at acquisition, but if not just because we think and live in a social context of comparison to a pretty decent extent seemingly, eg consumerism. So engineering reward (happiness) into things like curiosity rather then social competition unlocks a new ocean of light, to put it into new ageism. That's at the behavioural level, but down to the personal level the shift might be in a different context away from body giving mind pleasure (substance abuse) to mind giving body pleasure (actual happiness) :blink:

Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

Of course the risk of relying on anything to get happiness runs the risk of being sad when you don''t get it eg nothing to be curious about, or getting happiness from excelling over others could easily generate sadness when one gets excelled over by others. But the process of boiling down the process, into concepts from behaviour AFAIK, is an opportunity to explore how a simpler and more mobile model of happiness could in theory respond more dynamically to circumstance, and be more accessible in theory. Like water can fill a funny shaped container better then ice blocks. But anyway if sticking to behavioural manifestations then I''d say competition 'can' be a reason for curiosity (or perhaps an environment of it), if it did indeed create happiness like I suggest, but I don't think that means its result (excellence) is necessarily the cause of happiness or necessarily the only cause of happiness. A way not the way, but what is the best way so that it can be promulgated into a community to increase the GNP? I usually take the approach of breaking things down into functional units and then trying to exert that function more broadly, but that is me being curious :pinch: :S

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

Is that happiness stemming from joy or pleasure?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

I really like that line..."competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness".

I notice that to be particularly void of material things, but instead wholly speaks of those experiences and qualities of character Sun Bear was pointing to in what we would be "measured" by. Not the collection of "things" but the collection of our collective self?

JLSpinner wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well I would disagree. Respectfully of course. I don't think the GNP exists on a spiritual plane and I think competition breeds curiosity, which in turn breeds excellence and that equates to happiness.

Is that happiness stemming from joy or pleasure?

Why can't it be both? Competition is not a win lose scenario as in all or nothing and the place you come in does not correlate to happy or sad. Meaning if another exceeds you in some area that does not mean automatically one is sad. In fact that position can also be a position of pride and joy as long as you did your best. And it is also a position that promotes growth and perseverance to be better next time. This has to do with material Things just as much as any other. Beating the competition out for that job promotion brings in more money and that produces the ability to provide better for family which produces happiness in them. Not winning that promotion causes suffering which produces growth and the drive to try harder next time. But that suffering is not automaticslly sadness. It can be rededication as well. Nature is designed this way, it is a competitive state of existence whether it is humans in society or the lion and the hyena competing against the gazelle.

The funny thing about these American Indian quotes is they base themselves on new age ideas that the Indians were peaceful all loving communities in complete cooperation with one another and nature and this is just not true. These tribes were always in brutal competition with one another over land and other resources. Wars were more commin than not. In fact sun bear was ousted from his community because he betrayed his tribes sacred ways in the pursuit of profit by selling books and new age ideas that he erroneously packaged as Indian tradition.

I suppose you could claim both, but generally speaking the two aren't created in the same way. Pleasure being caused by external stimuli and being of a temporary and superficial nature. Joy is an internal state. Pleasure usually leads to desire which is not cohesive with joy. But perhaps you have a different experience.

JLSpinner wrote: I suppose you could claim both, but generally speaking the two aren't created in the same way. Pleasure being caused by external stimuli and being of a temporary and superficial nature. Joy is an internal state. Pleasure usually leads to desire which is not cohesive with joy. But perhaps you have a different experience.

No I think I have the exact same experience as every one else. In our competitive reality the win creates pleasure, which in turn leads to the desire to do that again. But the elevated position that win results in, after the fact, can create joy, the continued internal state of being.

Nobodies experience is the exact same.

I apologize if you are offended. I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

JLSpinner wrote: Nobodies experience is the exact same.

I apologize if you are offended...

What are you talking about? How did you come to the idea that I was offended? I was simply disusing a subject from an opposed point of view?

Wasn't sure on your tone. Didn't want to upset you.

JLSpinner wrote: I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

Yes but that is an unsustainable state in and of itself. What was it that allowed you the luxury of that state vs being in survival mode where you have to search for food shelter and the like? It was being successful at competition which provided your basal needs that in turn allowed that down time in which you could enact that joyful state of losing your sense of self.

Its a balance of the two. We gain through striving and then we can enjoy that.

Any state is unsustainable. This joyous state can exist quite often with a quiet mind. You have made a good point though. I'm am afforded the luxury more because of man's advancement. Even still joy can be found in the work of the day. I'll think on this a bit.

Thank you.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

Yes but that is an unsustainable state in and of itself. What was it that allowed you the luxury of that state vs being in survival mode where you have to search for food shelter and the like? It was being successful at competition which provided your basal needs that in turn allowed that down time in which you could enact that joyful state of losing your sense of self.

Its a balance of the two. We gain through striving and then we can enjoy that.

I remain curious, in part, as to whether the competition for needs in the survival (food/shelter) sense, related to joy, pain, or otherwise, is the only avenue towards the perceived ultimate joyful state of losing our sense of self which we seek to attain?

Should we be victorious in this competition mentality you offer, where a pleasure driven or joyful state is achieved through success and gains of the worldly sense, is that the final measurement of our victory? Or does this competition equate to a more interpersonal victory of self...where survival is assumed, and we are focusing those efforts more in the development of our character, and not the needs or desires of our physical estate?

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Truth be told, your earlier information on Sun Bear as an individual was new to me. Understanding where a person is coming from personally when we attempt to elicit insight from their words is rather important. Yet, since the words remain separate from the mouth from which they are spoken, we can still interpret them for what they are and assign value as we deem fit.

It remains more the point in my view that the original quote sought to focus our aspirations of happiness or peace not upon material gains, but spiritual ones.

Or am I misunderstanding the direction the conversation has gotten to at this point?

SamThift wrote: I remain curious, in part, as to whether the competition for needs in the survival (food/shelter) sense, related to joy, pain, or otherwise, is the only avenue towards the perceived ultimate joyful state of losing our sense of self which we seek to attain?

Should we be victorious in this competition mentality you offer, where a pleasure driven or joyful state is achieved through success and gains of the worldly sense, is that the final measurement of our victory? Or does this competition equate to a more interpersonal victory of self...where survival is assumed, and we are focusing those efforts more in the development of our character, and not the needs or desires of our physical estate?
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It remains more the point in my view that the original quote sought to focus our aspirations of happiness or peace not upon material gains, but spiritual ones

I think it is both, hence the need for the balance. We have to always offset the attainment of milestones with the enjoyment of those milestones. Milestones in this sense is an intermediary between success and not-success - however we define it. That could be through the attainment of food/shelter or spiritual enlightenment. Sometimes the competition is external and sometimes its internal. The universal factor in all this is the competition itself.

We want to be safe and sheltered and we want our families and those we care about to have those things as well. But internally we also compete with ourselves. Are we good enough, are we liked enough, are we talented enough, do we have enough knowledge? Confidence in these things is a constant competition through internal dialogue.

Why do we struggle to obtain knowledge in the pursuit of enlightenment? So we can perceive ourselves to be in a better place than we were before. But the fight is always there in the form of self challenge. What we must do is balance that fight with the acceptance that there are no true goals, (no such thing as final success) only markers on a path. And if we don't stop to spend time at those markers (milestones) to experience the joy in obtaining that place, we are missing out on half of the experience. In effect if we fail to see the reason for the struggle in competition (Joy) that is when the competition becomes futile.