I Am

Streen wrote: But who are we? What right do we have as a people to call ourselves by a name that we cannot possibly hope to live up to? What we can do is be good people, certainly. Spread light in our lives. Be kind to those around us. That's what the world needs.

I think its's even better to ask... "Who are you" Who is Streen? To say that one can't live (or even) hope to live up to a teaching that is practical and done by people on a daily basis is short sighted and possibly speaks only to your effort. With that point of view there is no one around that can even be considered "good people" (as you say we should be) and no one qualified to "Spread Light...".

I would encourage you to interact more with the site, and you will come across plenty of people that are "good" representives of Jedi. It may even be you.

Streen wrote: The responses you've all given are much appreciated.

What seems to be a common belief amongst most of you is the idea of a "doctrine". This is part of the problem. The TOTJO doctrine is even more fictional than the original beliefs expressed in the Star Wars movies. What is more frustrating is that every Jedi site seems to have their own doctrine. So, which do you follow? Which one is right? These questions are rhetorical, just things you might want to ask yourselves.

Don't allow yourself to be indoctrinated. Go back to the source. That's where the answers lie.

(None of this is meant to imply any of you don't already know these things, but this message is more for those who don't)

Curiously, have you posted this at the other sites you frequent?

Look bud, as Proteus is subtly saying, you are moving through a quagmire of thought, that many of us have been through, or will go through....

I (and many others like Alex in his response here) have said if this place goes 'fiction', we are outta here! We say that, because we have moved past the names and symbolism that man, and ourselves, have placed on things, and are thinking for ourselves...

To talk about a 'thing', we needed a word to start with, "jedi' choose 'force' as our word... Using other words on our journey, Tao, God, Gaia, Goddess, Mother Nature, oneness, source, light... Pick your term....

We laugh when we tell people "well, I am a jedi, cause I believe there is some kind of 'force', some kind of energy, running through the universe, and 'force' is the word I currently use for it..."

Because we know how it sounds....

Someone (and I have said it as well) that we are a loose conglomeration of individuals who think a bit differently from each other, and a lot different from the majority of the planet... At least it would seem that way at times... :lol:...

"indoctrinated" - *snort... lol...

I used to tell people when this was brought up, "we dont tell people WHAT to think, we only ask that they DO think..."

Streen wrote: What seems to be a common belief amongst most of you is the idea of a "doctrine". This is part of the problem. The TOTJO doctrine is even more fictional than the original beliefs expressed in the Star Wars movies.

Hmm, I beg to differ. In the original Star Wars it was implied that the whole Force thing was a religious one, albeit rooted in something actually real within the universe. There is some debate to be had whether either the Force or the Dark Side were a fair interpretation of the underlying spirit of the galaxy and the fact there was a conflict, there was indeed a debate to be had is itself perhaps one of the more profound unspoken messages in Return Of The Jedi. Now, the TOTJO doctrine is crucially different in that it is a religious doctrine for actual people rather than an arguably one-dimensional position on something real within the local universe it is intended for. I am being a little nitpicky here, but I think that the two are a little too grossly dissimilar for comparison. What does it even mean in this context for one of them to be "more fictional" than the other?

What is more frustrating is that every Jedi site seems to have their own doctrine. So, which do you follow? Which one is right? These questions are rhetorical, just things you might want to ask yourselves.

Don't allow yourself to be indoctrinated. Go back to the source. That's where the answers lie.

See, this is what I think a far more crucial problem is. Why does it frustrate you that different groups made up different expressions of what they believe? Rhetorical or not, considering the latest bit of the quoted passage, you seem to expect there being some "the answers" somewhere, and it frustrates you that nothing anybody comes up with gets you any closer to them. But the assumption that they exist or that some positions are closer to them than others are both your own. In the absense of the one true answer it is no great feat to consistently fail at finding it, but the disappointment you feel because of that is completely of your own making. The one ring to rule them all is frankly a fantasy that, with all due respect to Middle Earth, belongs in a simplistic and fantastical world. To look for it out here is, to put it bluntly, a fool's errand. Our lives are far more complicated than that, and far less magical.

Gisteron wrote: hetorical or not, considering the latest bit of the quoted passage, you seem to expect there being some "the answers" somewhere, and it frustrates you that nothing anybody comes up with gets you any closer to them

lol, I always figured that 'the answer', as in the case of my VERY Christian friend, is that which allows you to cope your way through life.....

Then, some of us found we dont have to cope, we just have to accept, and then the pressure for answers is off...

Jestor wrote: lol, I always figured that 'the answer', as in the case of my VERY Christian friend, is that which allows you to cope your way through life.....

Then, some of us found we dont have to cope, we just have to accept, and then the pressure for answers is off...

How can there be any single final answer if life is to stay creative process?

I think, the search for answer is needed just to make us aware of who we are, what kind of life we want. When we understand that and can describe ourselves in 3 words or less - then we're able to live freely and with purpose. But that's a very scary process - discovering who we are - at least, for me.

den385 wrote:

Jestor wrote: lol, I always figured that 'the answer', as in the case of my VERY Christian friend, is that which allows you to cope your way through life.....

Then, some of us found we dont have to cope, we just have to accept, and then the pressure for answers is off...

How can there be any single final answer if life is to stay creative process?

I think, the search for answer is needed just to make us aware of who we are, what kind of life we want. When we understand that and can describe ourselves in 3 words or less - then we're able to live freely and with purpose. But that's a very scary process - discovering who we are - at least, for me.

Who says it is a single answer?

Mine is kinda multiple choice... :laugh:

For my Christian friend? it "God's will"...

"To each his own."

I knew I joined this community for a reason!

When we talk about these things, the insights from you guys are simply brilliant!

Jestor wrote: Who says it is a single answer?

Mine is kinda multiple choice... :laugh:

For my Christian friend? it "God's will"...

"To each his own."

Thats the crux of it right there isn't it. We search for answers in everything we experience, every doctrine we come across, every person we encounter, we want them to give us this "answer". We frantically search for it everywhere but in reality there is no final answer existing somewhere in the universe. Instead the answer for each of us is something we already possess. It is inside of us and we just need to come to that realization. No external construct will give you a more satisfying answer than the personal one we find meaning with inside of us. To each of us it is unique and perfect. And no two will ever be the same, just as no two people will ever be the same - this is the mystery of our existence, there is no wrong answer to the question any one of us seeks. We need only find the one that speaks to us and that can only come from within. Until we can come to that realization we are just doing the equivalent of futilely looking for our "car keys" while all the time they are actually in our hand!

"""
Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary.

This question is one that only a very old man asks. Does this path have a heart?
"""

-- Castaneda

Streen wrote: But who are we? What right do we have as a people to call ourselves by a name that we cannot possibly hope to live up to?

I am Bart, but it is not a name I tend to use.. much.. :dry: Becoming part of this community is one of the best choices I have made, but when I start to think about the question. Could it be that we know who we are, but what we want to do with it? It reminds me of this lovely image that Marta showed me ones..
I do know who I am _{(to a certain degree)}, I do know that I am a Jedi, and I do know the core principles of Jediism for as far that is required. But I do not know where it will bring me, and I do not know what I will do with it. Only that I try to do that what I would like to call a 'blind choice' in our road map. One can learn history, advanced thingies, and structure of philosophy, but philosophy itself, the doing part, can only be learned by doing it? I guess that the same thing can be told about who I am. I know I am me, but I do not know what I want. And I discover what I want every time again when I explore life? Guess that that is what I am. Something ready for exploration.. :blink:

It's a little difficult to address everyone's issues with what I've said, but I'll try to clarify my point of view.

Codama asked me, "Who is Streen?" An excellent question, in my opinion. Streen was a Jedi who followed his own path, believed whatever benefited him best. He believed that everyone should follow their own way, whatever felt right.

Notice I speak of "Streen" from the third-person (a name borrowed from a Star Wars book). I don't really think of myself as that person anymore. My birth name is Aaron. As a good friend of mine informed me (a man formerly known as Relan Volkum), my Hebrew root name is Aharon, meaning "bringer of light" (among other things), brother of Moses, first high priest of the Israelites. I've found that it takes a great deal of strength to simply be who I am, as I was Streen for so long, avoiding my true self, pretending to be a Star Wars character.

Why is this post all about me? Because it takes some context to understand why I posted here originally on this topic. It's interesting that some brought up the topic of Christianity in relation to my original post. I never mentioned it. I don't generally agree with Christianity, mostly because Christ never intended for his teachings to become a religion. He was a guide, to show us how to live sinlessly. Which is impossible, but that's a topic for another time. It's just something to strive for.

The point is that what most people follow is what some call "churchianity". Most people don't realize they've fallen into this trap. And honestly, I get the impression that some people have fallen into that trap in Jediism.

Jestor, you asked if I brought this up at other Jedi sites I frequent? The answers is No. That's because TOTJO is the only Jediism site still active. This is the only place I visit.

1)

TOTJO is the only Jediism site still active

Can anybody comment if that's really so for the sites you know? I, for once, know that Russian and Belorussian Jedi are active at usual level.

2) I can't understand someone's problems with role-playing truly - I always used my own name, because I know that it comes from the name of a Greek god and that's spiritual enough for me. I don't care about fiction much, only in the sense in which it gives creative drive to real life.

3) Personally, I think that role-playing is for children. However, I can also understand role-playing for charity or in context of a party. Otherwise it seems infantile to me. #IMO.

4) I think we need much much much more examples of what is meant to be a grown up and a Jedi in modern society and at TOTJO. I'm sure we have quite an amount of brothers who meet real challenges and answer them along the Jedi principles. But I *rarely* hear of such things, much more - of philosophy or (pardon) some crazy stuff about UFO or conspiracy.

5) The whole thread reminds me of how I sought to join traditional a year ago and everything I saw felt like it's already history. I feel like genuine Jedi path is the only living and (at least, a little) organized spiritual thing.

6) IMO, this whole thread is about

(a) getting into TOTJO without being authentic to Jedi way
(b) finding out that it's not genuine
(c) blaming Jedi way

I suppose who we are within the Temple is defined by why we are here ? What are your reasons to be here ? To be enlightened ? To make friends ?

Silas, part of the mission of the Temple is to learn to stop defining ourselves by some external motive mould. It is on one hand natural to join of community of people one thinks is "like-minded" seeking some sort of growth, but then what happens is that two or more "like-minds" start competing for the same external resources. Just like a field of the same plants or a forest of all the same sort of tree will compete for the nutrients in the soil and sunlight. Some starve others ... I certainly hope that this is not what our Temple is about.

No, I am not here for "definitions" and encourage others to abandon that quest also. It is the prime ingredient of existential mayhem to need to be "defined" (thus limited) to some vicariously selected conceptual models. It is Sartre's "Nausea" from spoonful to bucket ...

One cannot find Enlightenment by going into any Temple, be it a Shinto one, a Buddhist one or a Jedi one. Enlightenment comes with understanding that it can't be pursued nor possessed ; one cannot store 'light' in a jar ~ much less even in a book or in an elegant discourse. To find what one needs, one need only stop - right where one is now - and look inside oneself. 'Tis there that one finds everything that one is inculcated to think is "out there."

Making friends is also something that happens on its own : we are drawn to some people, and they us, and others tend to repel us. And there is a whole spectrum in-between. The beauty of the TotJO is that we interact with a good mixture of the whole continuum of it. "(I shall never seek so much) ... To be understood as to understand ;" means that one can get a great deal of that slippery Enlightenment from those to whom we would not probably choose to listen to, from those we consider "those people" (out-group folk). Certainly we need some validation, but the major source has to be from within ourselves. Only the refining polish can come from others, be they "friends" or "those people".

Furthermore, Enlightenment comes by standing still in a bucket of boiling existential angst most of the time. We are covered under layers of the sludge of social, familial, educational and commercial conditioning so that we start out usually very mucked up indeed. Yet, we cannot just wash it off under the shower. That would kill us almost instantly. What the Temple provides therefore is a place to rub it gently, to soothe its itching, shake off the flakes ... knowing that we may never come totally squeaky clean (we are human beings, after all).

I am here because I spent 20 years as an errant knight without a home. Then one day, I wound up here. They ended up giving me a job so that I might actually earn my keep ... :whistle:

my friend, obviously Your believe in Christ shadowed your thoughts . Did You know that Jesus after his crucified and 3 days in a cave he was actually resurrected ? I hope this everybody knows here.

But did You know that after his resurrection he lived for 40 days only ? And after 40 days he died my friend, as any other man.

So if he saying the same as I did You will do too, I say thank You my lord, I am not interested, because where is the point.
And if somebody sick , he can take some penicilin or other tablet

One cannot find Enlightenment by going into any Temple, be it a Shinto one, a Buddhist one or a Jedi one.

(Not speaking to you Alex, just in general)

But, we dont know that...

Looking for "IT" (enlightenment, the answers, whatever), is tricky, like looking for your car keys...

It is always in the last place you look...

Except in this case, the answers you seek are not in the fridge, or on your dresser, but rather within yourself....

But, we have to look in the "Christianity" and the "Buddhism" and the "Jediism" to find it...

Here I am, 5 months in TOTJO, and telling folks the answer is within, lol...

And, while I was "saying it", I had not "realized it", yet... Not completely... I need more "soak time", lol...

To really look, to find this within, we have to hash this out, and the only way to do that, is to talk about it... Get mad about it, bitch about it, argue, with our 'cosmic selves' in others...

Corwinani wrote: my friend, obviously Your believe in Christ shadowed your thoughts . Did You know that Jesus after his crucified and 3 days in a cave he was actually resurrected ? I hope this everybody knows here. [sic]

First, thank you. I thought I was the only one with the impression that it sounded weird when Streen first said he did not generally agree with Christianity and then in the same breath agreed with some of its central premises (not to mention every other time he rather fondly spoke of biblical characters or events). However, I do not this know here that Jesus after his crucified was actually resurrected. There is quite a number of Muslims who would disagree with that, too. I'm pretty sure you don't know that either, but do feel free to prove me wrong.

But did You know that after his resurrection he lived for 40 days only ? And after 40 days he died my friend, as any other man.

Not according to the Bible he didn't. According to Luke 24 "He was parted from them [the disciples] and carried up into Heaven.", according to Mark 16 "He was received up into Heaven, and sat at the right hand of God.", and if we are to believe Acts 1, "He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their [the disciples'] sight.". Now I'm not the one saying the ascension happened, but you were saying the resurrection did, so...

Jestor wrote: To really look, to find this within, we have to hash this out, and the only way to do that, is to talk about it... Get mad about it, bitch about it, argue, with our 'cosmic selves' in others...

Thank you, Jestor, that is exactly how I feel. I didn't start this topic to say "this is true and that is false". I know it may have sounded that way, but sometimes I don't say what I mean or mean what I say. I'm a difficult person to communicate with, both here and offline.

Yes it is true I don't necessarily ascribe to Christianity. I believe in Christ, sure, both not the "ianity" part. I stopped going to church a long time ago, and started going back to God. In this sense I use the word "church" as to mean the building where one goes to listen to a particular pastor. The "church" I feel I belong to now is more closely defined as a people. I get my information from a variety or sources on the Bible, not just one hour a week at the chapel down the street.

That isn't to say I'm an expert on biblical knowledge, but I am no amateur. That being said, to address the topic of Christ's resurrection, I do believe he died on the cross for our sins, was risen 3 days later, and 40 days after that ascended to Heaven, a fully grown and physical/spiritual being, 100% Man and 100% God.

That might offend some of you, and you are welcome to disagree, but that is my core belief now. Any concepts of the Force and an ability to use it have transformed into a faith that all things are as they are meant to be. I don't put the power in my own hands anymore. God determines my reality, not my focus. I give it to Him, the Father, to take care of matters in my life. I am not here to express something "I" came up with, but rather to express something, I believe, God wanted me to.

why is Aaron any more "you" than Streen? at least YOU PICKED streen, so it reflected something about your aspirations (or maybe ego) but who knows what your parents were thinking when they named you aaron - i mean, jesus didnt pick the name for you so its not like it has anything to do with YOU as an individual

but to respond to OP

basically, totjo is doing it wrong and really should stop and listen to you??
funny, that sounds just like - well ALL of your topics lol

i like the way you say you arent christian because - well because they are doing it wrong too and should also listen to you lol

Streen wrote: My mission statement has always been "to spread wisdom". Most of the early Jedi in the 90's followed that mission. Before things got complicated.

well there ya go, thats youre problem: you got the order backwards lol

should have focused on finding wisdom instead of assuming you already had it

all youve been doing is trying to prove yourself already right - all these years lol

I said it before, and I'll say it again, and defend my self from any criticism, historically all we know is that Jesus was a charismatic Arab, nothing more.