I think i may be going over to the dark side

seanc wrote:

red heron i know this might sound odd.
but can you teach me to move objects with the force already?

http://gizmodo.com/5125905/star-wars-force-trainer-uses-mind-bullets-to-move-ball-through-chute

That's the first step and then you go from there. Let us know how you do.

RyuJin wrote:

master kana is right...the only light or dark is in the human psyche....the force is simply the energy of life, it doesn't care if something is light or dark because all are necessary...

the only true light or dark resides within each of us and it's a matter of perspective. as he said what one person views as being light someone else will view as dark. likewise sometimes something dark has to be done for light results and vice-versa

it's our intentions that determine the desired result.

True up to a point. The result is also determined by the view, real needs and situation of the recipient as well. Sometimes we can do some real damage through well ment actions.

That is where the second line of our code comes in, concerning Knowledge.

Like the old saying
\"the road to hell is paved with good intentions\"

The \"dark side\" is for one, not nearly dramatic as you make it sound, and for another is not evil and certainly nothing to be feared. It is a respectable choice, and it has little to do with the cinematic Sith. You feel anger, congratulation, you're human. Only you can choose your path.

Why worry about it? If you are determined to live the life of a Jedi, should your focus not be more aligned with your training than whether or not you are susceptible to the \"dark side\"?

Maintaining your focus on training will lead you to the answers you seek. It might even lead you away from the Jedi Path and onto a new journey. Only \"the Force\"/God can give you the answers you seek. And only YOU can choose which street you feel will benefit you.

It has already been said in here a couple of times. But in different ways. Here it is yet again...

Life is Life. Neither Good nor Bad, Yet, is both Good and Bad.

The good or evil we see around us is a matter of perception.

To use the Star Wars movies to illustrate:
-Do you think Vader and the Emperor set out to be \"Evil\"?
-Was Luke evil to want to take revenge on Vader for Kenobi's and his 'father's' deaths?
-Is Leia evil for wanting to kill Vader and the Emporer?

Vader and the Emporer thought the people were not smart enough to rule through democracy.

As is the way of thinking for a lot of those who would conquer.

Did Hitler think he was evil? Gunga Din? Napolean? Bin Laden? Mr. Smith in the Matrix? Alexander the Great? The list goes on...

Is America evil? (Not in my view at all, but in this great country it is ok to post such a sentence for a discussion...)

There are countries in the world where 'We' are thought to be evil.

I will venture to say (my own opinion, not necessarliy the point of view of this website or it's admin or users), this country has probably made some blunders. But I do not think that (would like to believe that), anyone set out to do wrong in a grand scale. (and maybe my optimism blinds me... I do not know)

I basically see the good (I'm very optimstic). Even though I've had a little bad done to me now and then. And I've done my share of the spreading of hate and discontent (in my youth).

In my middle strech of life, I would like to think that I've had enough experiance to learn from my mistakes, and those of others.

I continue to hope that this is the case.....

you could see it as there are 2 main types of evil...perceived evil and true evil...

perceived evil is the most common and is based purely on point of view. with this what appears evil to one is not to another...

true evil is much more rare and is a natural tendency that occurs without reason. there have been very few instances of true evil...those that are truly evil not only know what they are doing is wrong but do so anyway just for the pleasure they get from it. they do evil with no psychological disorders that would normally be associated.

From my perspective, there is most certainly a Dark Side to the Force... as is the case with all living things. This is how I view it, since I oppose the idea that the Force has no Dark Side:

Everything in the universe has a creative capacity (to which we assign the name \"Light Side\") and a destructive capacity (to which we assign the name \"Dark Side\"). Operating entirely on the Dark Side is impossible, just as is operating entirely on the Light Side. One's capacity for creative functions (life, healing, etc.) is equaled only by one's capacity for destructive functions (death, injury, etc.). But using one side or the other doesn't mean you *are* that side. What determines your \"side\" is your intent, your focus, and your ability to choose. If you consistently choose the easy path of destruction and injury before you try to fix things, you are operating on the Dark Side. If you consistently choose the path of selfish interests over those of giving, then that is most certainly operating on the Dark Side. One cannot operate without choosing these things from time to time--both are needed for growth.

A stone has a Light Side (the capacity to be used for constructing a house, a wall, or as the anchor for soil deposits to create a hill), and a Dark Side (the capacity to be used as a weapon, or to fall off a cliff and kill someone, etc.). The stone is not good or evil; it is, however, Light and Dark. Just as the Force is. And so what's evil?

Evil is to choose self over others, where such a choice is not entirely necessary for survival. It is this selfishness which is the real evil. Selfishness comes from focusing on the negative emotions until you're so wrapped up in them that they take control. It is living in the way of destructive intent and self-interest which excludes the possibility of allowing others to meet their own needs. We all have evil within us. The only thing that's required to eliminate evil in the world is to choose which one to feed.

Evil is survival of the self at the expense of the entire species.

And there are no absolutes: no absolute good, no absolute evil. It's all a matter of degrees... just like Light and Dark. Just like wet and dry. Just like any other \"opposing\" ideas out there. They exist, certainly; denial of them doesn't negate their existence, as both are necessary for balance.

Again, this is just my own view, and not \"canon\" or anything. But it's such a strong conviction that I felt the need to say something.

The Force is a neutral entity, one thats use is determined by the user. It's a matter of the person, not the Force.

Well put.

If \"neutral\" is the capacity for both, then I can accept that. Angelus offered in PM to debate this further in chat (I'd love to!), but I was distracted in another window (setting up my own site, takes a bit of concentration when I have to get my hands into the code). Really, I'll talk to anyone about this conviction, as it is based on deep-seated personal experience.

However, the point of the observation is that certain things lead us to our goals, and certain things do not. If we try to live outside of the ability to see that the goals that we have are desirable, then our goals are pointless, worthless, and of no utility. If we don't want to achieve them, then they are merely words and not goals at all.

But then, \"good\" and \"evil\" are just words. \"Light\" and \"dark\" are just words, too. As are words like \"peace\" and \"life\" and \"death\" and \"terrorist.\" All of these have meaning, and are linked to ideas, values, and modes of thought. If I say: \"Wo pu yao shue shuo zhong guo hua,\" then it doesn't mean a whole lot unless you happen to speak Mandarin.

So if I say that I perceive the capacity for both Light and Dark within a rock, does that make the rock either one? Yes. It means that both are present. It is a matter of how the rock is used. The thought of the rock being \"just a rock\" and having no capacity but that which we give it negates the ability of the rock to act on its own (such as, from gravity as it is pulled down a hill). But a rock is lifeless and has no will of its own, and so how can it possibly have any potential?

The potential is from what is done with it. Light can be used first, as the rock is picked up by a little girl who adds it to her \"cool rocks\" collection. But later, it might be used for Dark purposes, found by her brother who shapes it into a weapon for killing. The intent is Dark. But then the brother uses this weapon for the purpose of keeping people alive: let's say it's now an arrowhead, and its shot has kept the entire family from starvation. The act was Dark. But the result is Light. Was the intent Dark or Light? Intent alone cannot determine whether or not the act is Light or Dark--it's the result that shows the effect.

But then let's switch hypothetical gears again: let's say that instead, it's used to commit a series of crimes, used as a tomahawk to torture animals and then later as the weapon of a serial killer. The act is the same, and is Dark. The intent to harm and cause suffering is most certainly Dark. The result is suffering, and therefore Dark.

So then we switch gears again, and take a different track: it's now a weapon of war. Aggressors are advancing on the family. The stone is used again and again to take life, with the intent to do so. The intent is derived from a desire to protect, which becomes anger and hatred of those who are threatening this family. The anger and hatred are most certainly Dark. The intent to take life is Dark. The desire to protect is Light, as is the intent to only use this weapon as a weapon of defense. The result is that the deaths of those who would seek to end the family's life might be justified so long as the stone is used in a defensive capacity. Even in the hands of someone who has succumbed to the Dark Side, the result is defensive, and therefore Light. So long as that's what it is, and it's never used offensively.

But let's say that this is now the rock which was hurled by this little girl in defense at a Federal officer who is storming the compound at Waco, Texas, in 1995. The officer has a job to do. The compound is under siege because of some religious zealots who have been reported to have firearms (whether this is the truth or not is irrelevant to the point). The officer is acting in defense of those he feels are potentially innocent. The little girl who threw the rock is acting on the fact that armed men are trying to storm the building, and is defending herself with what she has. Neither side is acting out of actual malice. Is the stone Light, because it is used with the intent of defense, or Dark, because of the intent to do harm? This is something that we cannot determine without knowing all sides of the equation. It's a \"grey area\".

Intent is only one part of the whole: Light and Dark are balanced by intent, action, and result, just as good and evil are... so are wet and dry, etc., for all balancing forces in the universe.

Again, it's a matter of degree: nothing is purely good or evil, there are lots of grey areas between.

It's a heavy burden to carry around a light and dark side of The Force. You may have them but they don't come alone. You have to bear the red side of The Force and the blue Side of The Force and the green side of The Force and the yellow side of The Force and the violet side of The Force and the ....

I'm not making fun or being flip.

This is self evident.

Remember: (Yes Tao = The Force)

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name

...

When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises
When it knows good as good, evil arises

And here I thought that color was evidence that light and dark were working together...

Light is not white. Dark is not black.

All colors are evidence of light being reflected; darkness shows only the lack of light to see by.

If something appears red, then it is absorbing all other colors and reflecting red light. If it appears green, then it is reflecting green light. The sky is blue because of universal principles of reflection, refraction, and absorption of light.

Just because people say that something is so, that does not make it so. A Light Side doesn't mean that the colors are any less present. A Dark side doesn't connote their absence--merely the absence of the ability to see them. And in a world where Dark is destructive but not necessarily evil (as life requires some destructive processes such as digestion in order to survive), how can we live in a world where there is neither Light nor Dark according to our own beliefs?

Lao Tzu's book also said this:

The Tao doesn't take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.

Therefore, both exist within it. Something cannot come from nothing, or return to nothing. Energy changes; it doesn't ever get created or destroyed. For such a change to exist, the Dark Side must balance the Light Side: positive must balance negative, high must balance low, and all of the opposing, dualistic forces in the universe show us that the Force must likewise be allowed to have duality, balance, and moderation (as it is with all energies). The Force doesn't take sides; it is both sides and the middle. Our perceptions shape it into the capacities we call Light and Dark, and naming them doesn't change or diminish what the Force is.

Simply demonstrating that this unknowable, unfathomable \"thing\" we call the Force has a Light or a Dark is to show the capacities we label as such--the label itself is a means of helping us to understand, and requiring the lack of labels is not the central path of least resistance (nor is arguing the point, but I persist because this is really something I strongly believe and have a difficult time understanding the absence of... how can we live in a world in which light and shade cannot coexist because we fail to name them?).

RedHeron wrote:

The Force doesn't take sides; it is both sides and the middle. Our perceptions shape it into the capacities we call Light and Dark, and naming them doesn't change or diminish what the Force is.

Simply demonstrating that this unknowable, unfathomable \"thing\" we call the Force has a Light or a Dark is to show the capacities we label as such--the label itself is a means of helping us to understand, and requiring the lack of labels is not the central path of least resistance (nor is arguing the point, but I persist because this is really something I strongly believe and have a difficult time understanding the absence of... how can we live in a world in which light and shade cannot coexist because we fail to name them?).

ok....
So if I am reading all of the posts correctly, I think we agree that;

1) The Force is neither light or dark, as a whole.

2) The combination of the two (and the shades of grey) is what makes the Force.

3) It is the PERCEPTION of the person(s) involved as to whether or not the action is light/dark, wet/dry.......etc.

+5,+4,+3,+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3,-4,-5 = where the force is zero and perception (as well as the intent I guess) are the integers.

Does this sum up our thread? Or did I miss the mark?

you hit what i was saying perfectly...although using mathamatics is a new concept for me for it...

It's a heavy burden to carry around a light and dark side of The Force. You may have them but they don't come alone. You have to bear the red side of The Force and the blue Side of The Force and the green side of The Force and the yellow side of The Force and the violet side of The Force and the ....

I did not say you are wrong about the light / dark side of The Force. I said that it is far to heavy a burden for me (John) to have them. I leave those sides to those that understand them and can make use of them.

I do not understand them and I do not know what they mean.

I just have The Force.

It's a heavy burden to carry around a light and dark side of The Force. You may have them but they don't come alone. You have to bear the red side of The Force and the blue Side of The Force and the green side of The Force and the yellow side of The Force and the violet side of The Force and the ....

I did not say you (RedHeron) are wrong about the light / dark side of The Force. I said that it is far to heavy a burden for me (John) to have them. I leave sides to those that understand them and can make use of them.

I do not understand them and I do not know what they mean.

I just have The Force.

Jestor wrote:

ok....
So if I am reading all of the posts correctly, I think we agree that;

1) The Force is neither light or dark, as a whole.

2) The combination of the two (and the shades of grey) is what makes the Force.

3) It is the PERCEPTION of the person(s) involved as to whether or not the action is light/dark, wet/dry.......etc.

+5,+4,+3,+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3,-4,-5 = where the force is zero and perception (as well as the intent I guess) are the integers.

Does this sum up our thread? Or did I miss the mark?

1) I disagree. It is both at once, like the symbol of the Tao: Yin-Yang. They use black/white and red/green and blue/yellow to show that they are opposing. And in each, the seed of its opposite.

2) This I can agree with. All of it is necessary for the Force to be balanced at all.

3) This is the reason for the confusion... the perceptions are what we give name to, and therefore they are real because we name them. To refuse to name them means that we refuse to name hot or cold, because it's all \"temperature\".

The math isn't wrong, per se... but the whole number line is the Force. The \"0\" point doesn't really exist, unless we arbitrarily name it (as we have already named Light and Dark: we choose such things arbitrarily, yet the fact remains that they are well-defined by perception).

The point of the matter is that the sides exist, are well-defined, and are named because of their capacity. They are different uses of the same thing, it's true, but by their use we understand that the universe is made up of these things in order to keep life going.

Even balance must be balanced by imbalance (if that makes sense).

As a whole, the balances must exist. We have negative numbers and positive, but it's all numbers. They are merely the measurement of what we perceive, and the means by which we can come to a fuller understanding of the universe. They are how we express intent and result... and are neither inherently good nor evil.

We have a light side of the Earth, facing the sun; and facing away from the sun, we have the dark side of the Earth. It's in motion, and it's all the Earth, but there is a definite Light Side and Dark Side, and if there were not, the Earth would not and could not support life.

And with the Force, how can we expect that things are any different?

Apologies, Br.John, I did misinterpret the intent of your prior post. I don't understand what they mean, or what they are... but my own experience shows that they are definitely present. If yours doesn't, I can't expect anything will convince you that the heaviness of a burden of color is Light. (And every pun is intended on that.)

I do appreciate your input, though... if I could understand the idea better, of there being any kind of burden involved, I might be able to accept your explanation better. That it is directly contrary to my experience doesn't help. I just have to accept that your experience has been different.

In this, I respectfully agree to disagree.

Thanks Bro John for the post..it was not my intent to lead anyone to say or believe that these sides do not exist for indeed they do as a manifestation of the Essence of the Force itself. However, as with every manifestation, it is our perception that define how we view it and what \"label\" to put upon it.Such as in the case of math above where you are discussing numbers..I it not our perception of them a number that make them in reality numbers? This is similiar to how I believe the Manifestations of the Force work as well...perhaps I should of phrased it more along the lines of neither yet both as I believe the essence of the Force cannot be contained in either one but the Essence cntains both....