Questions for educ admin and council

Hypothesis that went through my head, tis probably nonsense but,

Maybe …

a. Your Master said you were ready for Knighthood because you reached the 100 + 100 points needed to become a Knight
b. Your case is presented to the council
c. Eyebrows are raised ( understatement) and a councillor reads your journal and is not impressed with your work because it lacked depth in certain areas in his opinion and he thinks you have been to highly graded for the few lessons you did ( this is about the visible part of your apprenticeship)
d. Another councillor starts grading your journal and decides she can only grant 55 points for the work you did , so she advises that you do more work.
e. Your Master does not agree and referred to a part of the apprenticeship that is not visible to us
f. The request of your apprenticeship gets denied ..

In my opinion it then has nothing to do with rules here and there but the mere fact that there is a learning part in the apprenticeships that is not visible to the public and not even to the other TMs or even to the council. I think this should be a worry to other TMs who train their apprentices offline, it could very well be that when your apprentice comes up for Knighthood the council can decide at will that your apprentice will not be Knighted merely on the fact that training was not visible and they decide that your apprentice does not show growth or developes the way they like them to. And be aware that forum behaviour and other obnoxious expressions by apprentices shall be taken into consideration , well that is not a certainty but would certainly be a worry of mine if i was still a TM here. It is a part of the apprenticeship that is vague and can be used against you at will.

This is not an attack on the council btw it's merely exploring the hypothetical possibilities and surfacing flaws that might help in the process of change the Temple is in.

Adder wrote: 1. the pages stating the point requirement for Apprenticeship seemed to have been lost in various site updates over the years, leaving only the wording of the A. Div as the requirement, and
2. when the SIP/AIP came in, this created another avenue to gather points but was outside the Apprenticeship.

Those two things meant an Apprentice could be presented to Council with less then the point requirement for Apprenticeship but meeting the A. Div point requirement. If you can get that point then you might get what happened.

Is this before or after the SIP/AIP was changed to specifically not apply to the A. Div.? Because my current understanding is that it doesn't, and those points apply after the A. Div.

Your assessment is incorrect Adder. Below is the direct quote from the educ admin. If what is below is correct then there should have never been any confusion when it came to my case.

Alexandre Orion wrote: There is still the AIP (or SIP) although I'm not sure who is heading it up just now. The credit given for +IP work was never to be applied to the A. Div. -- it was to be kept on record and the credit given at the end of an Apprenticeship for inclusion in the progress toward the B. Div.. This measure was to ensure that all apprentices would indeed do a complete degree during the Apprenticeship (there are various reasons for that).

It's possible... I'm not sure if its written anywhere on the site besides the occasional explanatory commentary. I was only referencing my understanding at the time....... unfortunately I didn't get offered the role because I was a good communicator

I cannot comment on the A. Div stuff specifically, and would defer to Alexandre. I just saw it being awarded to people who were not Knights and so assumed it was possible for it to be applied prior to completing Knighthood. Maybe what was then was then, or I am just ill informed on the issue. It was not my intended point, rather at the time during the process it had to be clarified as the point tally was closer to normal by including the AIP work.

Kyrin, to perhaps help explain the confusion, for context, I'd have to guess that most lessons in the lesson library are 2 point maximum, and your Apprenticeship was presented with an average per task of over 7 points each. Which is sort of the helicopter view of why it ended up being an outcome of more lessons needed I presume.

Well this just sounds like the typical doubletalk we have gotten from council for years.

And I was not watching cartoons and making batman utility belts. I was exploring some of the deepest philosophical concepts ever conceived so my lessons, which averaged 3k words, were worth 7 points instead of the typical 2. And for the average neophyte here to second guess a knight with a PhD in philosophy in this is just a complete lack of vision as far as I'm concerned. The unwillingness to even discuss the situation resulted in the loss of that experience and wisdom.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Well this just sounds like the typical doubletalk we have gotten from council for years.

And I was not watching cartoons and making batman utility belts. I was exploring some of the deepest philosophical concepts ever conceived so my lessons, which averaged 3k words, were worth 7 points instead of the typical 2. And for the average neophyte here to second guess a knight with a PhD in philosophy in this is just a complete lack of vision as far as I'm concerned. The unwillingness to even discuss the situation resulted in the loss of that experience and wisdom.

And that's great you did great on them. But a minimum combined point tally requirement partnered with an individual task point maximum might be about something else.... not necessarily about just getting a great result, it might be about ensuring a variety of topics.... something which cannot be met with depth focus as the only manner of work.

The TM/Mentor's post-decision inquiry was passed into Council, and I know that one Councillor contacted him with an answer (and suggested lessons for you to do). I dunno to what extent other private communications occurred.

Yes that was the lesson on natural law. Basically an anti lesson that was designed to force me into a paradigm that council felt I needed to adopt. Once again trying to direct me into a rabbit hole of conformity. This is something Alan never did to me.

And for the average neophyte here to second guess a knight with a PhD in philosophy in this is just a complete lack of vision as far as I'm concerned

Jedi who study the Jedi way don't need a PhD in anything , they also don't need to be talked down from people who have one. Maybe if people got of their high horses , or take their heads out of their highly educated asses they might see that being a Jedi is about being of service and not about who has the highest rank or degree and oww.. as i remember it , it were another Professeur or two who tried to mediate , but if someone keeps insisting that he is right then its very hard to find a middle ground.

You should have done the lesson Kyrin , you would probably have been wiser than to start threads to get your way after the fact. You would have been a Knight , and you could have taught your students your way within reason. And from what i see from you now , it was well within reason to ask you to do some more lessons ...more words dont mean more wisdom.

Serenity wrote:

And for the average neophyte here to second guess a knight with a PhD in philosophy in this is just a complete lack of vision as far as I'm concerned

Jedi who study the Jedi way don't need a PhD in anything , they also don't need to be talked down from people who have one. Maybe if people got of their high horses , or take their heads out of their highly educated asses they might see that being a Jedi is about being of service and not about who has the highest rank or degree and oww.. as i remember it , it were another Professeur or two who tried to mediate , but if someone keeps insisting that he is right then its very hard to find a middle ground.

You should have done the lesson Kyrin , you would probably have been wiser than to start threads to get your way after the fact. You would have been a Knight , and you could have taught your students your way within reason. And from what i see from you now , it was well within reason to ask you to do some more lessons ...more words dont mean more wisdom.

Kyrin is not saying you need a PhD to be a Jedi. She's saying Alan has a PhD in Philosophy, and yet his ability and judgment as a teacher was questioned until he ultimately left. We lost a great resource to the Temple over bickering. It isn't about high horses or heads up asses when you have no idea what service Alan or Kyrin provide outside of this Temple, and it is highly presumptuous of you to assume that this was just about rank. You don't know who these people are as "Jedi" in their daily lives, just as I don't pretend to know what kind of "Jedi" you are in yours.

As someone who abandoned the role of Knight and of TM here, I also don't think it is your place to lecture others about what what lessons they should take. More words don't mean more wisdom, but neither do more lessons on topics that have already been explored thoroughly before. It may have been well within reason to ask for more lessons, but it was well within reason for Kyrin to decline or ask for different assignments as well. This is her path to walk more than it is the Temple's to dictate.

As someone who abandoned the role of Knight and of TM here, I also don't think it is your place to lecture others about what what lessons they should take. More words don't mean more wisdom, but neither do more lessons on topics that have already been explored thoroughly before. It may have been well within reason to ask for more lessons, but it was well within reason for Kyrin to decline or ask for different assignments as well. This is her path to walk more than it is the Temple's to dictate.

That is your opinion , and you are entitled to your opinion , but i must say that the unclarity of the rules and requirements led to this misunderstanding that lead to the fact that your apprentice did not get knighted. I am well aware that the proces was not handled right , but i think that making threads to get justice after the fact is no use. As for being of service , i am in no way saying people are not of service Outside the Temple , i merely comment on what i can see here. I can be the best Jedi in the real world and no one would know. And i appreciate you standing up for your apprentice , but i think Kyrin knows me by now and can stand up for herself ...

Thank you, Serenity, for your calm and measured response. I got a bit too heated there in my response to you and should have taken more time to consider my emotions before spouting off like that. I apologize. I do respect you and you have always shared your honest opinions with me.

You are right that I do have a vested interest in Kyrin being that we are now working together, but a lot of my passion for this particular subject is trying to determine just what went so wrong in the first place so we can prevent it from happening to another Apprentice in the future. Kyrin may never become a Knight here and that will be a result of her actions and choices, but I'd hate to see this happen again if it can be avoided. If an Apprentice needs more work and is denied Knighthood, the reasons should be clear and we should have a written policy to point them toward as an explanation.

Despite this thread and many before it, we have still never managed to nail down exactly where the failure occurred. We have been able to determine it was a complex combination of confusing circumstances and reactions from multiple individuals that lead to the eventual outcome. We'll probably never be able to put all of the pieces in place to solve that riddle, but it is worth talking about. We've never really clarified the rules and procedures as they currently stand in a way that can be easily referenced. I think that is the goal now.

Never apologize for being the hot blooded alpha male you are Senan, Kyrin is lucky to have you as a Master :lol:

If an Apprentice needs more work and is denied Knighthood, the reasons should be clear and we should have a written policy to point them toward as an explanation.

Yes that was what i was getting at Senan. She is a victim of unclear rules , and i really hope your apprentice/master relationship will be more fruitfull , even if she does not become a Knight , its the path that is important.

Serenity wrote:
You should have done the lesson Kyrin , you would probably have been wiser than to start threads to get your way after the fact.

I did do the lesson. Did it make me wiser? What "way" am I trying to get here now? I don't believe I have demanded anything in this thread have I?

I did do the lesson. Did it make me wiser?

I hope so ?

What "way" am I trying to get here now? I don't believe I have demanded anything in this thread have I?

I realise that you want clarity , and guidelines and maybe prevent that something like this does not happen to anyone else. Your case has clearly been investigated thouroughly and i now think that you have to accept that it is what it is. But i do agree with the fact that things are moving slow , maybe too slow. It is confusing , and that can be frustrating. I do wish you the best Kyrin.

I realize that in general, we are trained to deal diplomatic, sometimes verbose responses, that serve the function of addressing a point without making too strong a stand.

But Kyrin likes it rough. :laugh:

When she gets the inflated verbose response, she will pick it apart in an effort to clarify. I once had a boss who did that... I LOVED her, she called us on our BS and demanded straight answers. I got into the habit of answering straight as well.

As long as verbose responses abound, you can bet Kyrin will be there to dismantle them. That IS service (whether it makes you uncomfortable or not).

Serenity,

I have accepted things for what they are a long time ago. This thread is not about me and I am not advocating for myself. This sprung out of another thread where policies and procedures were questioned and this thread was a natural evolution of that. I was the greatest advocate to start it since I was affected the most by the lack of not only procedure but the councils lack of understanding of what little procedure that does exist. I think the simple fact that you have stepped down as well is proof enough that you would agree that you are as tired as many others of us here that bureaucracy and ineptitude is driving the greatest talent away from this temple.

As for the lesson making me wiser, no not really. It just reinforced my position that natural law does not exist. A fact I had explored many lessons ago with Alan but was forced to do again. When that vein continued I began to refuse further lessons. That was all, I was not finding them relevant nor was I getting anything out of them.

Thank you for calling me a great talent :laugh:

People deserve clear rules and guidelines , but there is also the free hand of the TM where he teaches his apprentice skills that said apprentice can use in real life , to serve his Jedi life. I am sorry you fell through the cracks and i am sorry they presented lessons to you that were not taylor made to your talents, because that is what they claim , that the lessons are taylor made to the apprentice , but when it comes down to it , its all arbitrary ...And then when the shit hits the fan , the risk is that the powers that be resort to objective measurements of the lessons , with all consequenses following

True. I lost my mentor and that's were the training for me turned unproductive so I set out in my own path. I eventually ran into senan and great things have come out of that as well. Not many know how to handle an independant spirit that knows what she wants so I have only the greatest respect for those willing to take that on.

I was denied knighthood so I can't teach here. Because I'm not a knight I have no influence in decision making and I'm not eligible for council so I have no available hand in helping set policy. A common complaint is there are not enough willing to help. I think that is not quite true. I just have no avenue to help where I would be best suited and so my only avenue to keep these issues alive is threads like this.

Yes i understand much better now , so my shooting of the hip was not entirely unproductive I do however have a problem with the following , and dont get me wrong , i dont have a problem with what you say but there is something else i dont get , you say

Because I'm not a knight I have no influence in decision making and I'm not eligible for council so I have no available hand in helping set policy.

I am pretty sure there is a member in the council, someone who is not even a Novice so why should not you be eligible for council if it is not connected to rank , seeing you do have your A-div ?

Serenity wrote: I am pretty sure there is a member in the council, someone who is not even a Novice so why should not you be eligible for council if it is not connected to rank , seeing you do have your A-div ?

You are making the assumption that the ruling class here applies the rules of this place consistently and fairly.