Some questions from a passer-by

To kinda feed of off Jestor's fireman analogy let me put it this way but lets not use the poor hose jockeys.

I have been a police officer for nine years. When I first became an officer older officers would always warn of certain things that would change you as your career progressed. As a young officer I said that won't happen to me I know what it means to be a police officer, I went to college and went through the academy. As time progressed and I experienced many things first hand I changed. Now I see new officers and they have the same attitude. Sometimes the only way to truly understand something is to experience it for yourself but having guidance from those who have already experienced it can help enhance the experience and provide prospective.

Jestor wrote: EDIT: I meant to quote this too;

The main difference is where Jedi see Jedi as the goal, Sith, the path,

==============================

fireman wants to be a fireman, or a Jedi wants to be a Jed

Gonna have to disagree with ya here buddy..

Most Jedi want the world to be a better place... Although, what that means, and how to achieve it, differs...

If I had to generalize, I mean...

Since we are all generalizing... lol...

We (Jedi) like being lumped together about as much as anyone else... :lol:

The fireman, may be following a family tradition, and would prefer to make furniture... lol...

Most questions here are not about making the world a better place, but what a Jedi does and doesnt do in regards to X.

That makes Jedi the goal.

Few conversations here are about making the world a better place.

So, if that is the want for Jedi....I am not seeing it.

Most cannot even agree what "better" would be.

Most seem to only point out the negatives of the world and few are solutions, or actions leading to such.

So, feel free to disagree, but at the same time, I am not seeing how you came to that generalization.

As for the fireman analogy, while I am sure that happens, I am also sure the point I was trying to make did not escape you either.

Fireman, whether they secretly want to do something else, if they are training to be firemen regardless,makes being a fireman the goal.

Yes Khaos...

Out of your sight, in journals not for the public eye, our journals sometimes show and highlight the things we do for the world...

I, and another, are elected officials, doing our part for the citizens we represent...

I work in the.public sector... Donate time to my community to.make it fun, and safe... I'm the neighborhood block captain...

Two for sure work in the mental health field... One of my friends (here at TOTJO) has mostly overcome some life problems, and after some classes, offers their time to.volunteer to help others with similar problems that they experienced....

Some work in soup kitchens, some work and/or donate to then APL...

I also donate hundreds if hours to this website, the behind the scenes mechanisms that allow it to function, as do others...

What you see, is our relaxing down time... This is our "fun"...

You can't see the private conversations between members who just need an ear.. Need to vent, need some free advice (yes, always with the "we are not professionals), the advice as friends...

We are making the world better, even if its one person at a time...

Honestly, you.plain just don't know, cause you don't need to... lol...

You calling us 'dark' Jestor, from a certain point of view

ie; partially hidden

Ok, so unfortunately I can't reply to every single post since my last as I've been away and but the basic gist I got from them was: "there were many explanations, but for some reason they just weren't satisfying/Reneza is incapable of understanding"

While I appreciate your attempts at explanations, they were for the most part unsatisfying for a number of reasons:

1. While many concepts/terms are given in the "doctrine" they are unexplained and no baseline is given to what they actually convey. Many things that attempt to mimic real-world ideas and concepts actually come off as empty without any sort of foundation for their existence. This is problematic because it means that Jediism literally is just image and little more. If you suggest that it is a "platform for exploration of the spiritual" or something, this means that it is not a religion or anything really cohesive but a discussion forum online or otherwise for spiritual topics with the trappings of a film series.

2. While every other religion on the planet will tell you why its teachings should be practiced (if not proselytizing, it will tell its own members), Jediism seems to be both incapable due to lack of any real underlying teleological principle, and is terrified of doing so out of fear of receiving the same scrutiny as actual religions. Members repeatedly use circular reasoning such as "to give charity is good because it is giving charity which is good, etc." This is problematic because it seems that it's rather common around here to speak against "dogma" yet to make such audacious claims, as if certain concepts are objective, presumes there is an objective concept of "good" even though there exists no definition of it here. In the maxims it talks of what is "true" and "right" yet doesn't tell you what they are and just seem to rely on western cultural consensus on what these things mean.

Regarding "The Force":
A word cannot rely solely on on individual people's own definition. It needs to have a base definition at the very least least otherwise it's meaningless. The Force obviously has none. The reason for this seems to me to be for two reasons:

a) Fear of creating any kind of "dogma" out of a children's film series, perhaps due to embarrassment or for some it seems to be a case of fear that by doing so it will drive members away and leave just a small group. It is important to note that many people here seem curiously terrified of the concept of dogma but of course also have typically western attitudes to it, interpolating concepts like "ignorance" and "indoctrination" which are just not there in the first place.

b) Inability to create a consensus and resistance to doing so for the above reason.

The only definition I've been able to compile from all members' responses is that The Force means "personal opinions" and nothing more. It just seems insincere, at least to me, to mask it as anything more.

It is nice to be in a community and to experience a sense of belonging, and I do sympathize with a lot of the younger members here who have come to find something welcoming and a place to explore ideas, etc. But for the older members, in society you will always be considered as a ludicrous display of insincerity. I know that it is common here to act with a sense of hubris exclaiming that you "don't care what other people think" and that's all well and good, but if you don't care, why do you label yourself as something that has no real meaning outside of a fictional context? Why not simply explore ideas with other people without applying nouns or adjectives to yourself? - as it's all that this platform seems to be. The maxims themselves are just popular consensus in western society on how people should behave with the addition of extremely shallow new age "spiritual-sounding" concepts, e.g. "to accept the ego for what it is" or "to let the self be sole master of the self." The Force is repeatedly mentioned, e.g. "to be connected to the Force" and "to trust in the ways of the Force" yet again there is no definition so these phrases are meaningless and null.

Having no meanings is not "a strength" for a religion and almost all religions have broken into sects precisely because there is an extremely high level of ambiguity in regards to dogma. If you have no base at all and rely entirely on individual's own personal opinions/beliefs, then again it is not a religion, but a platform for discussion. There's nothing wrong with this and in fact it's a good thing, but to act as if it is a religion is ludicrous.

Regardless, I've enjoyed my attempt to understand and explore this particular little area of the internet and my understanding is better because of it. I really appreciate all the kind and genuine responses from everyone and I hope you continue to learn and grow in the world. But be careful when you use words, especially "IRL," as there are many who will ask you what they actually mean, and you will have to explain yourself. When people ask questions they are most often not being hostile but are curious and to act, as I've seen from the responses of several, as if the questioner is insincere and trying to "mock" you in some way should set off something within you. If you do feel this way, it is most likely because you cannot explain yourself and feel defensive because you've integrated something into your projected self (e.g. Jediism) and others see large holes in it. By refusing, you are failing yourself and become merely an image.

And? Is that it...
I disagree with your assessment. :lol:

I get the impression any answers we give at all would not satisfy. I wonder why this is continuing. I no longer see a point

I agree with the assessment of Firewolf and Adder. This 'conversation' has gone on long enough.

Br. John wrote:

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B. Kliban

those are brilliant! especially the last one
thank you for sharing