Creationism

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25 Apr 2012 14:20 #57747 by
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Letters don't belong in math!!
:unsure:

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25 Apr 2012 14:26 #57749 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic Re: Creationism

Kalkho wrote: Ah, but the process of developing this particular circle have started when You commanded Your computer to make one for You. There's always a start.



That's not a start. That's picking an arbitrary point. I did not invent the concept of the circle or develop the equation that expressed it. Why not say it started with the person who first conceived the concept of a circle or the one who developed the equation for a circle? There's the timeline for the computer too.

Let's use another example. What is the first integer number and what is the last integer number. Where does the integer number line begin and / or end?


Attachment Number-line.gif not found


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25 Apr 2012 14:52 #57755 by
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That's an interesting question. But, according to Wittgenstein, we're surrounded by concepts, that take form of words. You're asking me now to think about infinity. But how can I possibly have a concept of infinity in my mind? I could try to picture the entire Universe as well. And infinty on the number line is severely simplified.

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25 Apr 2012 14:52 - 25 Apr 2012 14:53 #57756 by
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@csmith
What about base 13 or hexadecimal systems?
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25 Apr 2012 14:53 #57757 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Re: Creationism
I don't see how this is proving anything about existence at all. Maths and logics start with an axiom that there is duality and this axiom is being accepted as true without any better reason but that maths would be pointless otherwise.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned

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25 Apr 2012 15:25 #57766 by
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@kahlko, now your just making things up

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25 Apr 2012 15:30 #57768 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic Re: Creationism

Kalkho wrote: That's an interesting question. But, according to Wittgenstein, we're surrounded by concepts, that take form of words. You're asking me now to think about infinity. But how can I possibly have a concept of infinity in my mind? I could try to picture the entire Universe as well. And infinty on the number line is severely simplified.


Then according to Wittgenstein your assertion that everything has a start is merely a word concept and has no basis in reality.

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25 Apr 2012 15:36 #57770 by
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The point being that there was no begining to time or the universe I assume. You are of they that believe time is cyclical, an ever repeating loop. It is an interesting thought, that time always was, had no begining, will have no end... This topic has caught my eye because I, like so apparently few others here, am Christian. Though I am not an extensive literallist. I believe some aspects of the Bible are to be understood as fact and others are to be seen as the teaching parables that they are.

Now, a few things that require reply; four corners of the Earth, duration of creation and such, and evolution.

1) The four corners. I would like a book, chapter, and verse reference if you don't mind. The only time I recall the four corners of the Earth being mentioned is in the book of Revelation where it is a symbolic reference to 'the farthest reaches of the globe', however I might be wrong, I don't have the Bible memorized after all.

2) How long it took God to make the world and everything in it. The simple answer is that He is The Almighty and can do more or less as He pleases, but this answer tends to be not very satisfying. I will admit, this is a topic Christianity itself is divided upon. I was taught that since the first five books, The Pentateuch, were writtan by a man, Moses, then we should understand them as a man would; that being 24 hour days. The information Moses wrote would have been passed by word of mouth during the pre-patriarical era. (The patriarical era being the time from Abraham to Joshua and the founding of Israel as a kingdom.) I understand that many see this as time for fabrication or mistakes in recording, but I believe that God provides.
2b) The Earth existing without a star for it to revolve around. Again, He is The Creator, Or more meaningfully, when God created light he created darkness at the exact same time. In doing this he gave us what we would come to understand as day and night. We as humans tend to think of the sun as the dominant light so much so that we cannot think of where light would come from without it. Imagine this though, when God divided light from dark perhaps he simply creted hemispheres of each, which would grant day and night just as well as the sun would. The hemisphere idea make plenty of sense to those of us who chose to believe in the divine be cause we read that God did the same sort of thing when he seperated the sky and sea.

3) Evolution. I have no answer that will satisfy, and I know that, but I will say my piece just the same. Micro-evolution, or adaptation, is well known and observed. This is what Darwin witnessed on those islands, prticularly in the birds. However, these birds, for all the changes they went through, did not become anything other than birds. Darwin took this information, and ran with it. If, over a short period of time, birds can change to mach their surroundings then couldnt chimps or gorillas, over a much longer period of time, become something akin to humans? A bold claim, but one that lacked real evidence. Since his day macro-evolution, or Darwinian Evolution, has made quite an impact on the world and the way we view the progression of life. Alas however, there is that ubiquitous question. "If humans came from mankeys, how come we still have mankeys?"

Thank you for allowing me to butt in, and I would very much appreciate it if this conversation continued with as much respect as humanly possible.

-Michael May

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25 Apr 2012 15:37 #57771 by
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Dang that took a lot longer to write than I thought it would. It belongs up there with the number line post.

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25 Apr 2012 17:17 - 25 Apr 2012 17:18 #57781 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic Re: Creationism
Vexaeus, that happens all the time - by the time you've written a post several have posted in between.

I'd say there's more than a few Christians here.

I'm going to take a bit of time to properly comment on your post so as to do it justice. For now, off the top of my head, I can think of Isaiah 11:12 (besides Revelations) where The Bible refers to the four corners of The Earth. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

On the question of why are there still monkeys - we did not evolve from monkeys but from a common ancestor. Here is a great timeline that shows the details. It goes from right (the past) to left (the present). So if you start at the left you're at today and you work your way back from there.

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-evolution-timeline-interactive

Here's a fine paper about The Old Testament I just came upon yesterday. It's attached for your interest.


Attachment ArgumentsAgainstOldTestamentLiteralism.pdf not found


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Last edit: 25 Apr 2012 17:18 by Br. John. Reason: Added link.

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