A Necessary Schism in Christianity

It is interesting to read what you have to say about Christianity - my view is that the teachings vary hugely depending on which Christian doctrine you adhere to. Being from the UK Anglican community I am part of the Church of England, which doesn't really teach about eternal damnation and such things, and I'm fairly sure that most CofE clergy would say that they believe that everyone will be welcomed in heaven (although I agree with you that 'heaven' is not necessarily the best word), regardless of how they live their lives on Earth.

I think that the key thing really is to form your own ideas of what parts of the Bible to take literally and when to say 'OK, that was written by some guy thousands of years ago and he clearly just made it up on the spot so I don't really have to take it that seriously'. That kind of reading of the Bible is pretty much encouraged in the Church of England, particularly regarding passages about things like hell, creation, male-dominated society, all of Leviticus etc. Basically as long as you believe in God (and perhaps the Trinity and the resurrection), you can call yourself a Christian, don't take any notice of people telling what you have to believe about all the rest of it.

On the other hand, I'm not one of those people who tells people what to believe, and therefore, if you feel that your beliefs are not in accordance with Christianity, then you might be better off cutting yourself off from it. I find that following your instinct, whatever that may be, is usually the best way forward on spiritual matters.

Star Forge, I'll bet you know this quote: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Mohandas Gandhi

I like what V-Tog has said on this topic and my views are similar. He was very eloquent in his response so I won't repeat what he said.

In my view, what's great about Jediism is that it allows each Jedi to take a religious buffet approach to all cultures, myths and teachings.

If a Jedi that is part of the Abrahamic rite doesn't believe in hell, more power to that Jedi and may the Force be with them. At this Temple, you don't have to believe in hell to be part of the Abrahamic rite. You can have a different definition of heaven, too, nobody is going to excommunicate you for that, haha.

MTFBWY,
LTK

I hope it didn't sound like I myself am in opposition to Christianity. I am first and foremost a Christian and will remain so forever, I merely believe that the majority of sects/denominations have gone in blatantly false and wrong directions that are not in keeping with Jedi beliefs, and more importantly, Christian beliefs. I myself have begun attending a small (less that 10 people) study at a Baptist church, which is SO far removed from Southern Baptist doctrine that the majority of the church members would have us tarred and feathered if they knew what we were discussing. We mainly talk about what various religions have in common, for instance the fact that Buddhist and Christian morality are almost identical, or that Islam and Christianity have similar eschatologies, or the role of Jesus in Islam. Given my huge admiration for the philosophies of the Dharmic religions, I am glad that for once I am able to speak freely about them in a Christian setting. We even touched on Universalism, which is pretty much heresy in the SBC. Anyway, what I'm saying is that Christian Jedi should either reform their religious traditions, or leave them and fellowship with small groups of other Jedi, or just like-minded Christians. I'm personally doing the latter, but if any of you think you can be a reformer, that is admirable, because truth should never be obscured.

I was going to post this as another thread, but I think it is most appropriate here. The link below is to Eternal Hope, by FW Farrar. Farrar was a minister in the Church of England during the mid-late 1800s and is considered to be one of the champions of Universalism (the belief that all will be reconciled with God). I suggest that every Christian here read at least part of it, it's not terribly long. http://www.lvulvu.us/pdf/farrar.pdf

Star Forge wrote: I hope it didn't sound like I myself am in opposition to Christianity. I am first and foremost a Christian and will remain so forever, I merely believe that the majority of sects/denominations have gone in blatantly false and wrong directions that are not in keeping with Jedi beliefs, and more importantly, Christian beliefs. I myself have begun attending a small (less that 10 people) study at a Baptist church, which is SO far removed from Southern Baptist doctrine that the majority of the church members would have us tarred and feathered if they knew what we were discussing. We mainly talk about what various religions have in common, for instance the fact that Buddhist and Christian morality are almost identical, or that Islam and Christianity have similar eschatologies, or the role of Jesus in Islam. Given my huge admiration for the philosophies of the Dharmic religions, I am glad that for once I am able to speak freely about them in a Christian setting. We even touched on Universalism, which is pretty much heresy in the SBC. Anyway, what I'm saying is that Christian Jedi should either reform their religious traditions, or leave them and fellowship with small groups of other Jedi, or just like-minded Christians. I'm personally doing the latter, but if any of you think you can be a reformer, that is admirable, because truth should never be obscured.

I do understand your concerns Star Forge and I can empathize with you as you struggle against a faith you believe has gone down a wrong path. The good thing is the Temple encourages you to change poor systems from within:

From the Temple Doctrine page: Jedi believe "In the importance of individual believers determining evil influences and policies within their chosen faith group, and advocate for their correction."

This may be your path and higher purpose (only you know for sure).

But I do want to comment on this: "I am first and foremost a Christian and will remain so forever..."

I used to believe the same way about Mormonism. NOTHING in the world could've changed me from that path 10 years ago. Yet here I am: happy, at peace, and a Jedi. Pretty dang cool!

MTFBWY fellow Jedi!

-LTK

Many things to this day are unclear as to what the term Christanity is... (Just my Point of View, no on elses).

From the begining, the idea of the philosophy has and still is focused on Jesus and his teachings.
But when the Nician (SP?) council decided what was to be the religious text (The Bible), opinions, points of view and what are agreed, singular books used to make up the bible, left much out and that was the begining of not just one chirstian belief and it has continued to change over the decades and centuries, bringing the concept to people to seek what is for them.

I have been associated by birth, famiy, and choice around Protestant, Catholic, Nazarene, Russian Orthodox, non-denom, Mormon, etc. in my life. Pagan is a term in the begining, of the culture, ceremonies, way of life that were adopted and changed some to bring the fold of people to the church. So one could say nothing is permenent.

I call myself Christian, but my outlook may differ a bit from another, that is how it works in this world, and that is ok, and good...

Everything has it's purpose and this is just my view of things....

Everything we are and are to be is not what makes us happy in a material world, but rather in what we do to serve.

In my service to what I believe with Jediism included is who I am... Let your heart help you find your path.... I feel everything is between you and God (Higher Power, etc. and The Force).

I have always told those who come with a Christian background is, you have to find what is comfortable for you. It is your path, no one can choose it for you or follow it for you...

MTFBWYAAF

Neaj Pa Bol wrote: Many things to this day are unclear as to what the term Christanity is... (Just my Point of View, no on elses).

From the begining, the idea of the philosophy has and still is focused on Jesus and his teachings.
But when the Nician (SP?) council decided what was to be the religious text (The Bible), opinions, points of view and what are agreed, singular books used to make up the bible, left much out and that was the begining of not just one chirstian belief and it has continued to change over the decades and centuries, bringing the concept to people to seek what is for them.

I have been associated by birth, famiy, and choice around Protestant, Catholic, Nazarene, Russian Orthodox, non-denom, Mormon, etc. in my life. Pagan is a term in the begining, of the culture, ceremonies, way of life that were adopted and changed some to bring the fold of people to the church. So one could say nothing is permenent.

I call myself Christian, but my outlook may differ a bit from another, that is how it works in this world, and that is ok, and good...

Everything has it's purpose and this is just my view of things....

Everything we are and are to be is not what makes us happy in a material world, but rather in what we do to serve.

In my service to what I believe with Jediism included is who I am... Let your heart help you find your path.... I feel everything is between you and God (Higher Power, etc. and The Force).

I have always told those who come with a Christian background is, you have to find what is comfortable for you. It is your path, no one can choose it for you or follow it for you...

MTFBWYAAF

Glad you mentioned the way the way the Bible was composed. It's an intense point of debate among Christians as to which Bible translation is best (and to a select few radicals, which one is the real Bible), and many of us such as myself realize that it is not a single, infallable work, but has been subject to selectiveness on the part of the translators and scribes. The way I see it, Jesus is God, so if something in the Bible seems to go against his teachings, I don't follow it. Perhaps I'm just a heretic...

I believe Marcus Aurelius said it best, “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

As far as calling for a Schism in Christianity over differences in belief... hasn't there been enough of that already? I've always thought it would be better to unite the different sects of Christianity, as a united Church would be much more powerful than the current divided one we see today. There will probably never be complete agreement, as everyone's perceptions are different. Even knowing that the Christian Holy Book (for the word "bible" merely means "book") has been selectively edited over the centuries, there will still always be those that will take every word of it as absolute fact, meant to be taken literally word for word. There will be still others that see it as a book of parables, stories meant to show us how to live a good life. Then there's everyone that believes something somewhere in between those two extremes. Perhaps if we forgot about labels altogether and just lived a good life, treating others as we would like to be treated, honoring each other for our differences, then maybe, just maybe, we could be better "_____" (filled in with whatever label you choose). Or just better humans. That's a pretty good label that fits everyone.

While I would like to see all Christians get along, sometimes getting along is not the most desirable thing. I mean, if getting along with someone means being indifferent to bad things they are doing, and showing apathy toward injustice, then I'd prefer an eternal war. A united church would be horribly bad! Look at the state of Christianity when there was only the Catholic church: all dissenters or people who politely disagreed were killed and/or tortured.

I guess I just wrote out of anger. The quote in your post was right on, by the way. It just astonishes me how tons of people can make God look like a tyrant, and at the same time claim he is not and then be assholes, because that's what they say God wants them to do.

Sorry I sound mad, I'm a recovering Southern Baptist

While I agree that modern mainstream Christianity has vastly missed the mark in regards to Christ-like behavior, I disagree (from a biblical perspective, and not one of doctrine) with what I understood of your statements.

For example, I have a hard time believing that something like Hell isn't integral to Christianity, since Christ Himself spoke of it on quite a regular basis; most of the red ink spilled on those holy pages is spent either warning of the wages of sin and the hereafter, or discussing how He is the only path by which to avoid said state of existence.

steamboat28 wrote: While I agree that modern mainstream Christianity has vastly missed the mark in regards to Christ-like behavior, I disagree (from a biblical perspective, and not one of doctrine) with what I understood of your statements.

For example, I have a hard time believing that something like Hell isn't integral to Christianity, since Christ Himself spoke of it on quite a regular basis; most of the red ink spilled on those holy pages is spent either warning of the wages of sin and the hereafter, or discussing how He is the only path by which to avoid said state of existence.

Christ didn't speak of it in a literal sense, and that's pretty obvious. The Old Testament doesn't speak of it either. There are words like "Sheol" and "Gehenna," which refer to death and the grave, but in many bible translations it is translated as Hell/Hades, both of which come from European paganism (Germanic and Greek, respectively). Hell is clearly an imported concept that is foreign to Judeo-Christian beliefs. In early Christianity, those who came from long established Christian families generally believed in universal reconciliation, while those who believed in hell were often converts from other religions. Origen is a good example of this.

Look at how many Christians today see the light. Universal reconciliation is a key belief of Eastern Orthodoxy (google Hilarion Alfeyev to see what I mean). I myself am looking into the United Methodist Church, which considers universal reconciliation to be a possibility.

And then there are the many Christians who, despite not being universalists nonetheless do not accept the doctrine of Hell. C.S. Lewis, for example,considered universalism to be a possibility, but insisted that if Hell exists in some manner of speaking, it is certainly not a place of eternal torment. The Church of England teaches annihilationism. Even the Catholic church denies that hell is a literal place.

I know you've probably been told that any kind of denial of hell is just wishful thinking, but look at the people behind the doctrines. I'd rather side with F.W. Farrar and Origen than Jerry Fatass Falwell.

Regardless of the nature of Hell, or its origins (which aren't Greek, but are rather traced from Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian captivity of Christianity's parent religion), the fact remains that Christ set himself as a limiter of salvation; the only doorway and the narrow path whereby believers may enter into true and eternal Communion with the Father. Since Christ, his teachings, and those roles specifically are the foundation, keystone, and linchpin of Christianity--they are what makes Christians Christian--it seems to me they should be treated with more than a flippant nod. Otherwise, we're not Christian at all, just a non-messianic Abrahamic sect.

i agree because the religion needs to teach love thats the only rule in the universe.

I'm not a Christian, so this is merely the two cents from someone on the other side of the fence.

Christian. To me, "Of Christ". The church, I figure, has lost its way, corrupted by the trappings of power. The Roman Catholic Empire and the Church of England Schisms saw to that.

There needs to be a reformation if any hope is to be recovered. Go back to the original teachings and make them fit the current world. That's why we're here in the first place, isn't it? To adapt something to fit our world? Peace, tolerance, all the stuff that makes it the Good Book.

Cast away the downright intolerance that the hardliners cry out whenever they're opposed. Join the real world and further the cause of good, and light, in the world.

Or not. Your choice, ultimately. Even the Vatican is noticing lowering attendance in its churches. There's a book I'd definitely recommend: "Why Christianity Must Change- Or Die. by John Shelby Spong, a bishop(?) in America, who lived through a lot of controversial times.

i fully agree with this the fact of the matter is i think thst the christian church has become rather a monster they judge which theyre own religion tells them not to do they cant seem to accept others. as a former catholic i remember how this religion in my own opinion blinded me to reality i am not saying this to insult those who are following this path but these are my own opinions i had met nothing but intolorence and inacceptance when i followed the christians more so on deeper study of the religion i have learned things i did not know about the religion the caused me to qeustion it however to those who do follow it i am not judging if this is where your heart is the follow it but for myself it was not a fit i cannot see myself ever following this path again the only religious groups that accepted me without judgement have been the pagans and of course the jedi

Alternative groups know what it's like to be judged, so they don't do it as often.

As a Catholic and a Jedi, I have actually found that the two paths mesh very well. Jesus was all about love and forgiveness. Just because some Christians today have forgotten these principles and focused all of their attention on certain other verses of the Bible (namely from the Old Testament) does not necessarily mean that Christianity as a whole is wrong or immoral even in today's society. After all, the Jedi Creed was originally a prayer from a Catholic Saint and Jesus himself said...

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. - Matthew 7:1-5

I have met quite a few Christians who have read this verse and used it to try and curb their own judgement. Please try not to call an entire religion judgmental and wrong without first understanding that, for me at least, Jediism and Christianity have quite similar teachings.

Regarding Hell...I guess that depends on what you believe happens when you die. Will your consciousness disappear when you die or will it continue on? If it does continue on will you "go" somewhere else, will you be left with your own thoughts of how you lived your life, or will your consciousness be free to flow with the universe or after those you left behind? These are questions that everyone wonders and no one knows. Many people believe different things will happen upon our death. If our consciousness does continue on, is it not possible that those who have lived a life of pain, anger and fear will be left with nothing but a "Hell" of their own making?

Regarding Satan...perhaps the Devil is merely the devil within ourselves. All people are capable of good and evil. Even those people who don't think there is such a thing as "Good and Evil" still have their own personal morality that they live by. Even though something may seem good in one person's perspective it could very well be evil in another's. Perhaps both exist within each and every person. Even Joseph Campbell said that we all have our dragons to slay.

The politics bit is just Christianity being used where it should not be. Religion has no place in any government. For example, consider if the current government believed in Nordic or Greek Gods. Would you want them telling you what to believe or how to pray?

now i respect those that are true to there paths i do not hate anyone what i hate is forgetting ones ways as i said if catholisism or christianity is where your heart is then there is nothing wrong with that but please dont lose sight of your values for as good as ones intentions can be that good can be twisted to evil with the right incentive not to go all star wars nerd but in the films anakinskywalkers intentions were good but became twisted and he turned into lord vader this analogy is perfect in describing someone who loses there values

eastern orthodox christianity follows quite different views

yet I think it is just as important

because it is the second most subscribed form of christianity

Star Forge wrote: the Eastern Orthodox and Methodist Churches of today teach a similar doctrine, but not the the extent that they should..

no, the eastern orthodox church makes it very clear on what theosis means and they teach it extensively