The light of islam (ugh everyone is a critic)

Manu wrote: So "overriding" the Old Testament is just Christian justification..

Well I'm not Christian and I havent heard anyone else say it, so I'm not parroting anyones justification - but in my own readings it is the most obvious and meaningul relationship between the two Testaments. The Old Testament needed not be wrong to require overriding, just badly written/transmitted.

ren wrote: Considering the importance of religion in the life of the religious, denying its involvement in the negative parts of history and exclusively looking at the positive influences is dishonest at best.

Only if the person is claiming to represent the religion. Discussing only the positive aspects of a religion is not dishonest IMO (in fact its all I'm interested in) - in the same way as I dont judge a how football team plays based on the behaviour or football skills of its supporters!

Something like the death penalty has advantages. Exclusively looking at those advantages is foolish. Same goes for religion. And everything else for that matter. Being a Jedi, believing in the Force... It's all about looking at the bigger picture, not only at what's convenient.

ren wrote: Something like the death penalty has advantages. Exclusively looking at those advantages is foolish. Same goes for religion. And everything else for that matter. Being a Jedi, believing in the Force... It's all about looking at the bigger picture, not only at what's convenient.

Well analogies are only useful insofar as they make sense, but it sounds like your talking about the act of passing judgement on something? The electrician who is fixing the electric chair for the prison only needs to look at the electricals and not the broader implications - to fix the chair.

If he is deciding whether he wants to be associated with fixing a chair that kills...then yes he needs to look at the bigger picture to make a judgement about his path, but he is also loosing focus on what his actual involvement is by looking at the bigger picture, as their is a judical system that takes the responsibility for when the chair is used.

The broader the scope the more you see but all at less detail, but the narrow the scope the less you see but at greater detail. I think its fair to say a forum with religious subforums should be able to accomodate discussion about individual aspects of religions? Surely we dont need a disclaimer after every post indicating that religions are dangerous for your health, seek medical advice before reading!

Honestly, you're both right. Adder, we don't need a disclaimer after every post. However, in a topic discussing Islam in general, it is completely appropriate to include the negative aspects without bashing. Looking at the big picture is definitely important too. As for the question of the Old and New Testaments, here's what I was taught.

The New Testament, and specifically the crucifixion of Jesus, was meant to fulfill the law set forth in the Old Testament. That's why animal sacrifices ended after Jesus died. He was the sacrificial lamb if you will. He conquered death by returning on the third day. Now, to present a bigger picture, I have some questions now about what I was taught as a child.

The first is, if the Law of Moses has been fulfilled, then the point of the Old Testament is just to have stories, right? Then why do we pick and choose things from there to follow. My former pastor used a passage in Deuteronomy to explain why we shouldn't marry people outside of our religion. They use passages in Leviticus to explain why gay marriage isn't okay. The question still remains then: How do I know what in the Old Testament is out of date and what I follow? That could be for a CHristian topic whereas this is a topic specifically on Islam.

Of course there are negative things done in the name of God. Several recent examples were the work of Al Qaeda. We also have the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc. I think it's very important to look at the fanatics as well as what the books say. Like I've said, the reason I left Islam wasn't the Qur'an. It was the culture of the people. I found it too closely tied to the religion so I got out. Being focused on the positive can be good, but there are always at minimum two sides to every story and both are worthy of examination.
Leena

Leena wrote: Honestly, you're both right. Adder, we don't need a disclaimer after every post. However, in a topic discussing Islam in general, it is completely appropriate to include the negative aspects without bashing. Looking at the big picture is definitely important too. As for the question of the Old and New Testaments, here's what I was taught.

The New Testament, and specifically the crucifixion of Jesus, was meant to fulfill the law set forth in the Old Testament. That's why animal sacrifices ended after Jesus died. He was the sacrificial lamb if you will. He conquered death by returning on the third day. Now, to present a bigger picture, I have some questions now about what I was taught as a child.

The first is, if the Law of Moses has been fulfilled, then the point of the Old Testament is just to have stories, right? Then why do we pick and choose things from there to follow. My former pastor used a passage in Deuteronomy to explain why we shouldn't marry people outside of our religion. They use passages in Leviticus to explain why gay marriage isn't okay. The question still remains then: How do I know what in the Old Testament is out of date and what I follow? That could be for a CHristian topic whereas this is a topic specifically on Islam.

Of course there are negative things done in the name of God. Several recent examples were the work of Al Qaeda. We also have the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts, the Holocaust, etc. I think it's very important to look at the fanatics as well as what the books say. Like I've said, the reason I left Islam wasn't the Qur'an. It was the culture of the people. I found it too closely tied to the religion so I got out. Being focused on the positive can be good, but there are always at minimum two sides to every story and both are worthy of examination.
Leena

A simple answer to your question Leena I suppose you have seen star wars obviously. Think of the Force as religion in its basic form and see the dark side as the opposing side that takes everything in the bible too literal. Now when Luke was flying towards the death star in the battle above there was fighting going on, the empire vs the rebels. The empire is the set of rules and verses that speak bad of all things, the forceing you of looking at all things literal. The rebels was the free ideas, the morals that are included, and the ideas hidden between the lines. The death star is the huge stigma of religion that is forced onto everyone by blind pastors who see nothing but the negative. When Luke was flying his friends were being shot down, the literal meanings of religion was destroying his true spiritual ideas on all the subjects. He kept his head straight and didn't let the constant battle destroy his focus onto the approach of the death star (the one thing blocking his big epiphany, his begining of nirvana, and the breaking of the suppresion that he felt by the empire.) He was then in the trenches coming closer and closer. He brings down his visor and sees through the eyes that are what everyone would of used but what happens? Kenobi speaks to him and tells him to "use the force." He put away the "crutch" in which he relied on for the answer and used his own ability to destroy the death star, to free his mind from the suppresive literal translation and enter into the new mind frame that from looking through his own eyes and spirituality he can conquer any task.

What does that mean? The bible isn't meant to be literal, I mean in literal text all the bible, the quran, and the torah are is a history book. Instead you are supposed to read above the lines and in between them where it is not so much that Job was sold by his brothers as a slave and he became the phaorohs right hand man after a long time. It becomes that life is full of problems and if you persist through with a good attitude you will be given what was meant for you, what you deserve.

Do you really think earth was made in a week? That dinosaurs must be fake? The seven day scheme is a outline of evolution from the second god created the universe with the big bang (let there be light) and the creation and chemical changes of the world. Then the evolution of animals from the sea and then to the land and finally to man. What happened on the 7th day? He rested (or so humans see it as because nothing is changed but life changes constantly and we live in the 7th day and soon there will be a religous text about the 8th day.)

Look at the outline below and put in evolution into it and you will see how it fits nearly perfect. God is beyond days so why would he have a schedule? A day in gods world is said to be hundreds of thousands of years in ours so why would he go by mans calendar during creation?

You guys don't understand that such is philosophies of the ages and arts throught the centuries, religion isn't supposed to be read literally it is supposed to be pulled out an greater idea from the symbology behind it. Religion speaks of god, god is a personification of a greater power that has dominion over the universe that is of no gender but an energy that sustains all and created all, the energy that first erupted during the big bang and spread out all over the universe and always expands. The force is an practical explanation of the same energy. E=mc2 is the scientific way of measuring it. Everything is interconnected and takes a person not to see so black and white to actually point out the similarities:
Chi
ki
astral plane
the colective unconscious
the cosmic unconsciousness
Allah
Yhwh
Jhvh
The Gaia hypothesis
the force
The life stream
and so on...

They are all the same! Every single thing is just another explanation of one another and the only way you see it is by not being so literal, thinking outside the box, and understanding that life isn't black and white, good or evil, it is just a living breathing cycle that has no biased opinion just the idea of infinite and the unmeasurable and the unknown.
They are all the same

I think that is the whole point. The comments I was making were what I was taught and not what I believe. The Star Wars analogy was very interesting. I even use a more literal analogy with that one about physical sight and blindness. Sight is a great thing until it is allowed to rule the other senses.

As far as the concept of religion being discussed here, no I am not someone who believes the the Earth was created in a week. The moral of Joseph's story was indeed along the lines of what you said. The moral of Job's story was patience and strength. Job lost everything and didn't curse God, at least for the most part. He finally did at the end and was chastised for it. I think the point of that story was enduring to the end. Many people have achieved this realization. When you lose everything, it can be built up again because all the stuff lost was just material. It's the spiritual things that are irreplaceable.

Well analogies are only useful insofar as they make sense, but it sounds like your talking about the act of passing judgement on something?

I am talking about looking at all aspects. Doesn't matter what the subject is. football, religion, death penalties, beer, whatever.

I think its fair to say a forum with religious subforums should be able to accomodate discussion about individual aspects of religions? Surely we dont need a disclaimer after every post indicating that religions are dangerous for your health, seek medical advice before reading!

I agree with you. However, this particular thread is "what is Islam exactly". If you want to be exact, you have to look at the good as well as the bad. Otherwise the thread should be "the good things about Islam".

Leena wrote: I think that is the whole point. The comments I was making were what I was taught and not what I believe. The Star Wars analogy was very interesting. I even use a more literal analogy with that one about physical sight and blindness. Sight is a great thing until it is allowed to rule the other senses.

As far as the concept of religion being discussed here, no I am not someone who believes the the Earth was created in a week. The moral of Joseph's story was indeed along the lines of what you said. The moral of Job's story was patience and strength. Job lost everything and didn't curse God, at least for the most part. He finally did at the end and was chastised for it. I think the point of that story was enduring to the end. Many people have achieved this realization. When you lose everything, it can be built up again because all the stuff lost was just material. It's the spiritual things that are irreplaceable.

I said Job didn't I? I meant Joseph :pinch: . Job is a great example as well lol.
And yes I thought over that analogy for a hour at work today even lol (waking up at 4am then visiting this site to check messages and mindlessly working will let your mind wander.) The point I was trying to make is that true wisdom is only learned by looking beyond the words. It was a way to discuss that preachers don't really see things beyond the literal and call themselves wise and also a comment to the whole "picking and choosing thing" and how things should not be picked but read deeper beyond to ask "why did they say this in the bible and why that" most of the "don't be gay" and "kill and pillage" stuff comes from the time it was produced and that was the mind set and culture of the time. To follow that is like reading of rome and dressing up as a centuarian riding a horse. lol these sort of comments are also just to inject some new ideas into the topic more so to help people think (mainly the guests who come by and others who would benefit from it.)

ren wrote: I agree with you. However, this particular thread is "what is Islam exactly". If you want to be exact, you have to look at the good as well as the bad. Otherwise the thread should be "the good things about Islam".

Good point, this is going to be a long thread if the OP keeps to the title :side:

Adder wrote:

ren wrote: I agree with you. However, this particular thread is "what is Islam exactly". If you want to be exact, you have to look at the good as well as the bad. Otherwise the thread should be "the good things about Islam".

Good point, this is going to be a long thread if the OP keeps to the title :side:

There you go.

You know you guys spend way too much time reading titles rather than what is actually in it :pinch:

So are we talking about the light of Islam or about the fact that everyone's a critic? LOL. JK. For the record, titles are important and help the reader stay on topic. They let me know where off topic might be. Of course, seeing what's in this thread suggests that many topics are being discussed and therefore changing it to The Light of Islam would change the direction of the discussion completely.

So what I find great about Islam is that the prayers are absolutely beautiful. I love to sing the surahs of the Qur'an and to hear them sung. I love that there is no mediator to talk directly to God. I love the camaraderie of the community. Everyone is treated like family from the beginning. There's always someone willing to help teach you something. That's where a lot of the light of Islam is in my opinion.

Just one point of feedback. Several times you have said something to the effect of "You guys believe..." For example, many people here wouldn't take the Bible, Torah, or Qur'an literally. I'm sure there are several who do, but I don't know that except that I've seen some of the Christian topics. Looking at some of the topics of discussion that have come up, I know for sure that each person has a differing point of view. We may agree on some, even many things, yet I have yet to meet two people who agree on all things.

Regarding the earlier question about the idea of Hell.. the descriptions used are the closest metaphors that the authors could achieve for what it really is, a separation from God or Allah (or whichever god or gods you choose). The idea is that even though the Diety loves you, the pain caused by the separation from said Deity would cause total grief and anguish as if being burned by fire.

As to the comments about the correlation between the Old and New Testaments: a counter question. Why do the stories HAVE to be true? Would the story being made up diminish any of the value gained from the moral of it? I tend to see the whole of religious text as parables, a set of stories to give us a guide to live by so to speak.

Aren't we tolerant of others religions here? No one is forcing their beliefs on anyone else, we still like the Atheists. Religion has NEVER been the reason for any evil done on this earth. Greed has. Humans have. Powerful men want to be even more powerful men. Every war fought in history can be boiled down to greed, even if it was advertised as something else.

I'll stand by John Lennon. Pretty smart guy for a hippie. Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for... And no religion too.

I don't get how you could like Islam and the Quran, but not Muhammad, considering that he wrote the Quran and that it was based off of his teachings and revelations he received from God. Just a little bit from your original post that I don't quite get. Also if he did write anything later in life that contradict the Quran (which I don't understand since the Quran wasn't formally created until about 20 years after the death of Muhammad) he would be contradicting his own writings? Please explain this all.

Coryduran wrote: I don't get how you could like Islam and the Quran, but not Muhammad, considering that he wrote the Quran and that it was based off of his teachings and revelations he received from God. Just a little bit from your original post that I don't quite get. Also if he did write anything later in life that contradict the Quran (which I don't understand since the Quran wasn't formally created until about 20 years after the death of Muhammad) he would be contradicting his own writings? Please explain this all.

Simple he was a hypocrit he had writings afterwards. Now unless you studied Islam as a devotee and looked at what Muhammad did after he became a imam you would instantly understand. Now until you read the Quran and studied Muhammad's life you would understand I will not add fuel to the attacks against Islam tho because Muhammad is simply a slave of god and I can not like him all day long for it only says to respect Muhammad as a profit and love and obey only god. If I say any negative things I as a Muslim see others as non Muslims will ignorantly add it as fuel that they won't truly understand what Islam is and only looks for reasons to hate. So my reasoning is only my reasoning and will be confessed to only those who study and understand Islam as a true devotee

I promise that anything you say here will not be used as bullets for the hate islam gun. Very seldom do we get muslims who are vocal about it here and it's always nice to hear first hand from someone who knows the religion. It would help us greatly in our studies and understanding.

War Beauty wrote: I promise that anything you say here will not be used as bullets for the hate islam gun. Very seldom do we get muslims who are vocal about it here and it's always nice to hear first hand from someone who knows the religion. It would help us greatly in our studies and understanding.

I believe in helping understanding of all things Islam included but my thoughts on muhhamad will only narrow the eyes of an average person who does not understand teachings are beyond the man. So without truly being connected to the ideas it makes no difference either way.

One of the things that caught my attention about Islam was the prayers 5 times a day. I wondered why a deity would ask such a specific thing, surely not just to ensure maintenance becuase each person would be different in their heavenly relationship already... but then I considered that perhaps any revelations to such nomadic people as Arab traders in the 6th century AD might be deliberatly specific to having a connection to the Force when in extreme isolation. This of course makes me wonder how best to implement something like that, just doing it equally spaced didnt cut it for me, so I've come up with my own intepretation which has some use to improving my connection to the Force.

Since I consider the Force is in all matter (at least its unifying nature) and having a higher connection to Force then means having the most broad connection to matter - which leads me to astronomy! If in my meditations/prayers I can try to connect to the Force in all matter on Earth the next step is to connect to the Moon and so on. This also has a relevance to the nomadic traders as they navigate throughout the desert as astronomy has been used since day 1 for navigation. So what about 5 times to connect to the Force?

I think my preferred 5 meditation/prayers would be the solar dawn and dusk's, plus the solar zenith, plus the lunar zenith and lunar nadir. The moon clearly interacts directly through gravity with the oceans so I think its a good focus for a meditation. I know in Islam you are meant to face the shortest direction to Mecca, but in my intepretation you'd face directly the sun or moon to help align your meditation. Does Islam talk about when to pray and why to use those times or is it just whenever you can evenly interspaced?

Adder wrote: One of the things that caught my attention about Islam was the prayers 5 times a day. I wondered why a deity would ask such a specific thing, surely not just to ensure maintenance becuase each person would be different in their heavenly relationship already... but then I considered that perhaps any revelations to such nomadic people as Arab traders in the 6th century AD might be deliberatly specific to having a connection to the Force when in extreme isolation. This of course makes me wonder how best to implement something like that, just doing it equally spaced didnt cut it for me, so I've come up with my own intepretation which has some use to improving my connection to the Force.

Since I consider the Force is in all matter (at least its unifying nature) and having a higher connection to Force then means having the most broad connection to matter - which leads me to astronomy! If in my meditations/prayers I can try to connect to the Force in all matter on Earth the next step is to connect to the Moon and so on. This also has a relevance to the nomadic traders as they navigate throughout the desert as astronomy has been used since day 1 for navigation. So what about 5 times to connect to the Force?

I think my preferred 5 meditation/prayers would be the solar dawn and dusk's, plus the solar zenith, plus the lunar zenith and lunar nadir. The moon clearly interacts directly through gravity with the oceans so I think its a good focus for a meditation. I know in Islam you are meant to face the shortest direction to Mecca, but in my intepretation you'd face directly the sun or moon to help align your meditation. Does Islam talk about when to pray and why to use those times or is it just whenever you can evenly interspaced?

WEll the story goes something like Muhammad spoke to god about prayers and was trying to come up with a number, god said pray 1000 times a day (some huge number like that) and Muhhamad being a man of god agreed and told his people to pray a 1000 times a day. Well the people did as suggested and came back to Muhammad and asked him to speak to god saying something like "1000 is too much, we have no time for anything else please talk to god once more to help." So muhhamad returned to god and said "My people have families and lives they tire from 1000 prayers and beg for it to be reduced, oh great allah please take in my peoples pleas" a new number was then presented and the number was 100 (once again a large number but still very vague as to what the true number was.) The people were happy because of how much smaller the number was and did the prayers happily. Soon they still were tired and their whole day centered on prayer and nothing else so Muhammad returned to god. "Oh merciful god please my people wish to pray 100 but still it is too big! Please help us we wish to worship but are tired and weary." After awhile god agreed on the number 5 stating, "They may pray 5 times a day! But each prayer must be worth a thousand in the way they pray and I shall allow only 5 times." Muhammad returned to his people and everyone was much more happy with 5 times a day. They had to pray the special prayer that the majority of Islams pray (pointing to Mecca, multiple bows, and praising how great god is in arabic, we also are supposed to bathe before every prayer if possible and be completely involved in it which makes it all worth a thousand prayers in one prayer.) Now I personally don't pray as such, I tried it for some time but once again some things don't translate well with the west. I honestly wish I could but being connected with god (the force) is more important than a simple prayer, being a true servant of god/the force is fully admitting (both internally and externally) that you are a very willing servant of God/the force and that you genuinely love and respect God. Anyways 5 special prayers spaced out throughout the day in a way that they are worth a thousand.
The times were set either by Muhammad or God but I do not remember off hand
The prayer times all differ from where you are in the world and other technical things so I will just cut the shortcut on this one and copy/paste a answer (I am sorry to do this but it is much easier this way lol.)Also since my prayers do not match those who do them daily it is better to hear from them anyways. It's like reading about a car, driving one a few times and then trying to explain how it works to someone who wants to talk to a mechanic :laugh:

Question: Why do Islamic prayer times change from day to day?
Muslims pray at five appointed times each day. The precise timing of these prayers often vary by a few minutes each day, so that over the course of a year there is a wide range of prayer times. Some communities publish prayer "schedules" to keep track of the times, and specialized computer programs can also calculate the prayer times for each area, for each day of the year. Why is this so? Why don't Muslims just pick the times and stick with them year-round?

Answer: The Islamic prayers are fixed at the same "time" period each day -- before dawn, noon, afternoon, sunset, and evening. Because of the rotation of the earth, the revolution of the earth around the sun, the tilt of the earth, the various latitudes of the earth's locations, daylight savings time, etc. -- the "times" (according to the clock) for these prayers do change from day to day and depend on location. Islamic prayer times were traditionally set according to the movement of the sun, not of the clock, and this is how they continue to be observed.

http://islam.about.com/od/prayer/f/prayer_times.htm

I forgot to mention something about Islam on a side note! I can't believe I didn't type this earlier. But Islam has proof that it is a direct word of god (whether you believe so or not Muslims and some scholars believe so.) Within the quran to prove that it was a factual account of God (I keep almost typing Allah lol) it contains facts about certain scientific discoveries that we only now confirmed recently in the past 100 years (estimate) stuff you could only known with sscientific instruments we currently have (this is another reason why I love Islam because it is a proud supporter of science.)

This video is kind of long but it contains mentions of the big bang, the universe expanding, the formation of mountains, and even embryotic development. This is a religion that actually confirms the big bang theory and is pro-science. It's a must watch (I had to read mine but I cant exactly take my book on science of the quran and scan each page to post up here lol) so this is the short cut for you guys

Most of this stuff is not only OLD language (1400 years outdated) but also translated to another language so some of the surahs (verses) are a little hard to decipher but there the whole "Read between the lines for higher understanding" comes into play once more. Because in normal english this sounds like greek or doesn't translate to our brains all that well but it's fighting as I said 1400 years and a translation into a language with NO real links to arabic.